FWAA goes CRITICAL with H10 flat top Battery

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Deluminator
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FWAA goes CRITICAL with H10 flat top Battery

I’ve had my FWAA 219C 4000K, since freeme’s groupbuy at nealsgadgets. I Adore the light or thought I did! Till I decided to buy a vapcell H10 Flat top from Illum. So there legitimate cells.

Let me get this outta the way. I owe other members an apology! I though ya’ll were crazy when you were complaining about this light buggin out. It’s completely true and sorry for the judgment.

Light worked awesome with purple EFEST button top. Heck she even worked with cheap ebl, underpowered but still worked. A little finicky but nothing a good crank on tale and head couldn’t fix.

But with Vapcell H10 Flat top, Yikes the darn thing goes into self destruct mode. Without me even clicking the darn thing on. The clicky appears to lose all function and by the time I get the head off the body. It feels hot enough to desolder itself, if left on any longer.

Sorry for dismissing others concerns and would appreciate a resolution?

Edited by: Deluminator on 07/23/2021 - 19:34
Deluminator
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I will say that the Vapcell H10 Flat tops did get hot and the charger did get oddly hot while Charging them yesterday especially hot for 14500 charging. But I trust illum as a seller.

Th558
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I was thinking of buying this light but I guess not anymore.

naota3k
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Deluminator wrote:
I will say that the Vapcell H10 Flat tops did get hot and the charger did get oddly hot while Charging them yesterday especially hot for 14500 charging. But I trust illum as a seller.

That sounds kinda sketchy.. I used mine a bit with the same exact batteries, purchased from Illumn, but I didn’t notice any strange behavior with mine. It also has the 219C, but 3000K. I actually just put it in the post to Vinh to have some SW45Ks swapped in because I wasn’t a fan of those emitters. I’ll have to keep a close on eye on when I get it back. Shocked

jon_slider
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Th558 wrote:
I was thinking of buying this light but I guess not anymore.

have you tried the Jetbeam RRT-01 yet?
it does not have an inner sleeve like the FWAA, so it is much less finnicky about battery contacts.

Deluminator wrote:
about this light buggin out. It’s completely true and sorry for the judgment.


with Vapcell H10 Flat top, Yikes the darn thing goes into self destruct mode.


I know what you mean
my FWAA w H10 battery does that too
it turns on, ramps up and wont turn off

I then unscrew the head and tail, reseat the battery, and it works normally again.

I have been experimenting flipping the body, and pushing the inner sleeve in and out a millimiter or so at opposite ends, and I think that is how I caused it to go into overdrive, during reassembly.

the rule I find works for me, is, tighten the tailcap over the clip ring, so the clip does not rotate. Then tighten the head after that.

I think the issue is when too much of the inner sleeve sticks out towards the tail, it makes the switch stay on.

the instant on and ramp up has only happened during assembly, after flipping the body and messing around with the cap and tail fitment. So Ive always had it in my hand and could take it back apart, when this “shorted switch” happens.

The light sort of behaves as though I did a 2H from off and have not let go of the button. I think it has to do with the black inner sleeve making momentary, bouncy contact with the driver, as if the switch was being double pressed.

The fix is to make sure the head is totally loose, first tighten the tail over the clip all the way, after that insert battery and tighten the head.

freeme
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Isn't that a classic reaction of a short circuit? 

Quote:
The clicky appears to lose all function and by the time I get the head off the body. It feels hot enough to desolder itself, if left on any longer.

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Firelight2
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If the light ignored the button and ramped to max, you have a short between the inner tube and the outer tube. The driver thinks the button is held down when it is not. The solution is to probably disassemble the body tube and reseat the inner tube. And check the driver to make sure it is properly centered and the retaining ring is not shorting to the inner contact ring.

If when you install a cell the light abruptly turns on max and gets really hot without ramping, you have a short that is bypassing the driver. Likely the negative contact wire on the other side of the driver is shorting to ground.

jon_slider
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freeme wrote:

Isn’t that a classic reaction of a short circuit? 



or a closed switch contact maybe

when head and tail are off, and head gets assembled first
the black inner tube can get pushed from the head end, and moves towards the tail

now if the tail is screwed down against the overly protruding inner sleeve, the switch gets pressed into constant ON position?

the ring around the top of the black tube must seat against the lip in the body, the O ring should not lift the black tube above the edge of the body too far.

Push the black sleeve into the body until the O ring is pressed to move below the lip on the inside of the body. The metal ridge around the top of the black sleeve, should press against the ledge inside the body tube, not just the O ring.
.

the black sleeve needs to be fully seated into the tail end of the body, tighten the tail first, accomplishes this.

.

or another explanation
when assembling the light, if the head wobbles a bit while screwing it down, the switch might get a double tap command.. to go to ceiling.. not sure

I have slapped and tapped my light in all directions, trying to cause the problem, and I cannot duplicate it yet. Once the light is assembled and working properly, it has not spontaneously shorted out. Only during assembly.. particularly when installing the clip and using the tailcap to pressure the clip ring down past the O ring. This could be wiggling the contact of the black sleeve against the switch, on the inside.. maybe?

Muto
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Since this light is a scaled down version of the FW3A, it only makes sense that it have the same dangerous as hell results.

They can take those inner sleeve designs and stick them where the sun don’t shine.
JUNK

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“History doesn’t repeat itself, but it sometimes rhymes,” Mark Twain

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jon_slider
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Muto wrote:
the same dangerous as hell results.

I also fear hot anduril lights
simple mode eliminates turbo
and sets a more moderate ceiling
the danger of the FW design is the FET output
and the Hair Trigger Switch

it is for the people that want more than 1000 lumens, and are willing to carry it locked out. The switch was chosen because it is very flat, making the light suprisingly small.

But it is not a save switch to carry unlocked. For that we would need a mechanical clicky.

fwiw
Novatac and HDS use signal springs and wires too, They also use electronic switches, but with MUCH higher activation pressures..

A signal tube is not much different than a spring or a wire, they just have to make proper contact at both ends, and not get jiggled into fooling the switch into thinking it was double tapped while closing the tailcap

zoulas
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Is the inner tube needed for the electronic tail switch? So an electronic side switch would not need one?

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zoulas wrote:
Is the inner tube needed for the electronic tail switch? So an electronic side switch would not need one?
I think that is right

this is the primary design advantage of sideswitch lights, which are all electronic switch designs,

most tailswitches are mechanical not electronic
exceptions being Novatac, HDS, FWxx and Noctigon Kxx
eSwitch on the tail makes them fatter

Firelight2 wrote:
If the light ignored the button and ramped to max, you have a short between the inner tube and the outer tube. The driver thinks the button is held down when it is not. The solution is to probably disassemble the body tube and reseat the inner tube. And check the driver to make sure it is properly centered and the retaining ring is not shorting to the inner contact ring.
Beer Crown Grad
this sounds like the best explanation, mine did ramp up and simply ignored the switch.. it has happened at least 3 separate times, after I had both head and tail off.. and was trying the clip at both ends and screwing around with the body orientation too.

definitely check that the retaining rings are not loose. mine had a loose retainign ring in the head.. but it is tight, and Ive still had the assembly short, with ramping.. its just a thing that happens after having both ends off, such as when installing and removing the clip, or such..

-ROYCE-
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I have had an aluminum with 219c since release and also have a copper with SST20 that I’ve been using daily this past week. Both have H10s in them and no issues at all so far. Just sharing my experience, hopefully it stays that way.

Firelight2
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jon_slider wrote:
…definitely check that the retaining rings are not loose…

I haven’t noticed as many issues with the FWAA.

However on the FW3A, I notice that the switch actually works better when the retaining ring in the tailcap is very slightly loose. My theory is when it is too tight, the switch pcb is held flush with the tailcap. If this is even a minute fraction out of alignment with the inner tube, the tube won’t make firm contact with the entire contact surface on pcb.

It works better if the tailswitch can free float slightly.

jon_slider
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ROYCE wrote:
no issues at all so far.

yay
btw, do you carry clipped, locked?

I mostly leave the FWAA unlocked on my desk
have not pocket carried it mutch, dont trust the clip, nor the switch
I dont lock, but I set the ceiling to 400 lumens and use in simple mode, which prevents Turbo

fwiw, troubleshooting tips
another potential way to short the body tube to the black sleeve is accumulated lubricant.. if a problem appears, a wipe out with a bit of alcohol can restore proper function. This issue was also present with Novatacs, that would become unreliable as they aged. sometimes they just need a good cleaning..

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jon_slider wrote:
ROYCE wrote:
no issues at all so far.

yay
btw, do you carry clipped, locked?

Yes clipped in my left pocket, and always electronically locked.
roostre
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With Anduril-2 being newer than Anduril-1, I would hope that all versions would incorporate the "stuck switch safety feature" of Anduril-1 to protect against the behavior described in this thread, but I do not have a Lumintop FWAA or any light with Anduril-2 to test this feature. I am also assuming that an "inner control tube short circuit" or a "stuck switch" would be treated the same by Anduril since it would probably not be able to tell the difference between the two.

Newer versions of Anduril-1 incorporated a "stuck switch safety feature" where if the switch is held down continuously, the light will ramp up to maximum brightness, but after the light reaches maximum brightness it will only stay at maximum brightness for a few seconds and then automatically ramp down to minimum brightness and if the switch is still being held down, then after another few seconds the light will blink and enter lockout mode.

Both my Sofirn SC31 Pro with Anduril-1 version 2020-03-18 and my Sofirn LT1 with Anduril-1 version 2019-11-29 have the "stuck switch safety feature". I believe Anduril-1 version 2019-09-24 added an automatic ramp to minimum brightness if the switch was held down continuously (this version also added the "15+ clicks from off" version check function) and Anduril-1 version 2019-09-28 added the "stuck switch safety feature" (automatic lockout if the switch remains held down long enough).

I have Lumintop FW3A lights with old versions of Anduril-1 that do not have the "stuck switch safety feature" (or the version check function) and I do notice on these type of lights with the "inner control tube" that if I loosen the light's head enough, I will lose the "inner control tube signal" even though battery power can still be supplied to the LED through the outer tube, so if I do this while the light is at maximum brightness it will stay at maximum brightness and I cannot control the light with the switch to turn it off so the "stuck switch safety feature" would not work in this case even if the version of Anduril supported it.

How many flashlights does a "real man" need?

None, real men are not afraid of the dark.

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roostre wrote:

With Anduril-2 being newer than Anduril-1, I would hope that all versions would incorporate the “stuck switch safety feature” of Anduril-1 to protect against the behavior described in this thread, but I do not have a Lumintop FWAA or any light with Anduril-2 to test this feature.


This is a neat feature I didn’t know about. Just tested and both my FWAAs ramp up and then quickly back down to minimum.
jon_slider
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Firelight2 wrote:
I haven’t noticed as many issues with the FWAA.

thanks for sharing your experience, it has helped me take the leap

mine seems fine overall, I came prepared to check for loose retaining rings.. not a big deal.. and the light has been reliable, once successfully assembled..

it definitely gets bright, and hot, but I was able to adjust settings to suit my modest preferences

its a fun little light

ROYCE wrote:
roostre wrote:

With Anduril-2 being newer than Anduril-1, I would hope that all versions would incorporate the “stuck switch safety feature” of Anduril-1 to protect against the behavior described in this thread, but I do not have a Lumintop FWAA or any light with Anduril-2 to test this feature.


This is a neat feature I didn’t know about. Just tested and both my FWAAs ramp up and then quickly back down to minimum.

wow, thats cool
my FWAA does that too
starting from off, unlocked,

IF I hold the button down it ramps up and back down

and

it also locks the light out after that

Firelight2
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Biggest issue I had with an FWAA was a driver wire desoldering itself from the star of my FWAA Ti.

… but it wasn’t the light’s fault.

I had used the shortcut to turbo from off of “click + click-hold”.

That mode gives instant access to turbo and overrides the thermal protection as long as you hold the button down. After all, if you’re holding the button down, you shouldn’t need thermal protection…. you’ll release the button when your hand starts to burn long before the light is damaged.

Well that’s probably true for the aluminum and copper versions. Not so much for the all-titanium version where the head can be burning hot while the back of the light remains cool to the touch.

Fortunately, it was fairly easy to resolder the bondwire back on.

id30209
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I’m running H10 in both of my FWAA and the only issue i had was their poor soldering on conntact wires to the MCPCB. Once resdered and cleaned it works perfect.

WTB Titanium 4sevens 2xAA tube

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jon_slider wrote:
wow, thats cool
my FWAA does that too
starting from off, unlocked,

IF I hold the button down it ramps up and back down

and

it also locks the light out after that


Another (default) safety feature is double clicking going to top of the ramp instead of max, unless the light is already adjusted to top of ramp. But I’m one of few (if not the only one) loving this feature. Likey being removed in customized versions. How’s the FW* firmware working?

Smile, you cannot kill them all.

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Unheard wrote:
double clicking going to top of the ramp instead of max, unless the light is already adjusted to top of ramp.

I find the 2C command inconsistent
In Advanced, from ON it does not produce the same result, depending when it is used, as you described.

I do like that 2C gives ceiling, in Advanced, in other circumstances.
And 2C from Off, and also from ON, in Simple mode, gives ceiling, not Turbo.
I like that consistency, in Simple mode.

also, 2H is an inconsistent command
In Advanced, from Off 2H produces 150/150 (“Turbo”), but from ON it produces down ramping.

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Awesome, thanks for all the potential fixes. Still love the light; A2 is incredible and I truly understand why TK made it “essentially” muggle mode from factory. The lights just not trustworthy at the moment.

Before I started fiddling with inner sleeve and retaining rings. I decided to put efest button top back in, and she works flawless again.

But still pulled apart to give everything a good crank. I didn’t turn GREEN. Still everything is tight and centered. It makes me wonder if cell length and pressure on the driver board is playing a sneaky part. In why Flat top H10 isn’t tolerated in my sample

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I have been thinking about getting a FWAA, as I really like the FW3A.

Am I understanding that with some batteries the FWAA works correctly while with some other batteries it does not??

The FW3A can be finicky if not assembled very precisely in a certain order.

Is the FWAA any worse than some find the FW3A to be??

Thanks in advance for answers….

-ROYCE-
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ShyOne wrote:
I have been thinking about getting a FWAA, as I really like the FW3A.

Am I understanding that with some batteries the FWAA works correctly while with some other batteries it does not??

So far that is the case for one user. It does not appear that anyone else has reproduced these results, and I would wager the majority of FWAA owners are using the H10 cells in question.

Edit: If I were you and you want one, I would purchase from Killzone since you appear to be in the US. In the case that you do receive a bad light, their customer service is excellent. I haven’t looked at their stock recently but I know they carry the FWAA.

Perception
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My solution for my dangerous as hell fw3a was to take the battery out and never put another in there, although I don’t think heat is an issue anymore since it did get hot enough to give me second degree burns and desolder 2/3 LEDs.

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jon_slider wrote:
zoulas wrote:
Is the inner tube needed for the electronic tail switch? So an electronic side switch would not need one?
most tailswitches are mechanical not electronic
exceptions being Novatac, HDS, FWxx and Noctigon Kxx
eSwitch on the tail makes them fatter

Acebeam has many as well, and I think nitecore and Fenix have some versions
Spark did it a long time ago
Probably others

FWXX just does it worst with poor machining tolerances (thanks Lumintop) and no sort of spring element.

jon_slider
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ShyOne wrote:
Am I understanding that with some batteries the FWAA works correctly while with some other batteries it does not??

yes, there is a battery length limit
the H10 is not too long

I have had the same issue as the OP, that sometimes when I assemble the light, it goes into Automatic ramp up, and the only way to turn it off is to remove the battery, and reassemble in the correct order, tighten the tail over the clip first. Tighten the head last.

Im dont think the issue the OP had is battery related. As I said, Ive had the same issue, and imo it is an assembly problem..

imo, the FWAA is entertaining, finnicky, and dangerous. I dont recommend it as an edc due to the button being too sensitive, and Im not a fan of 4 clicks every time I want to use a light.. works fine unlocked, on my desk.

for EDC, I still vastly prefer the Jetbeam RRT-01. It has none of the dangers of the FWAA, wont turn on in pocket, no need to lock out, always starts at a safe level, and dead simple to dial in the right amount of light, intuitively.

The FWAA otoh, requires ramping up and down to find the sweet spot, and ramping down is not a consistent commant, sometimes it just requires 1H, other times it requires 2H..

the mental overhead to use a FWxx is quite demanding.. having to remember what memory mode was set to, whether to turn on with a click or with a hold.. reading the manual to change settings.. worrying about burns.. none of that comes into play with an RRT-01

oh and the clip on the FWAA is imo, not very secure.. the RRT-01 pocket clip is far superior..

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jon_slider wrote:
for EDC, I still vastly prefer the Jetbeam RRT-01. It has none of the dangers of the FWAA, wont turn on in pocket, no need to lock out, always starts at a safe level, and dead simple to dial in the right amount of light, intuitively.

I like the RRT-01 too. Specifically, the 2014 edition. I find the 2019 and 2020 versions just a bit too heavy. If only they used an aluminum instead of brass pill.

However, the 2014 RRT-01 isn’t perfect:

  • The ring takes space. While not large, the RRT-01 certainly isn’t the smallest light around for its battery type.
  • I thought the ring was intuitive too. But when I handed my RRT-01 to someone she tried to press on the lanyard ring on the back and wondered why the switch didn’t work.
  • While the ring isn’t likely to accidentally turn on in the pocket, I have had it happen. The ring is loose enough and the knurling grippy enough that just shifting around in my pocket did cause an accidental turn-on. This is disturbing since the 2014 RRT-01 has no low-voltage protection. Still… this only happened to me once, so the chances are very low.
  • Low output. Even when updated with a 2020 RRT-01 driver, the output on an RRT-01 isn’t going to blow your socks off. I wish they had a driver that provided as much output as the RRT-03, but with the UI of the RRT-01.

Overall, I still rate the 2014 RRT-01’s UI as probably the fastest to use and most intuitive out there.

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The button on my FW3A was too sensitive for my liking. I had gotten into the habit of doing a hard lockout by twisting the head slightly. But then I saw a tip about removing the nubbin from the switch (under the metal cover) and installing a small O-ring in place of it. That worked! My FW3A has a nice firm click that I like. No accidental activations. I’m wondering if the same kind of mod is possible with the smaller switch of the FWAA

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