Wurkkos TS21 with Nichia 219c 5000k - perfect "daylight neutral tint"? Impression & comparison w/ other high CRI LED's

BTW I have the TS21 for a while now and would still confirm that this is for me the most “daylight-truthful” LED in my collection of Nichia LED’s. If I ignore all my OCD debates/rationalizations about which LED is the most beautiful, or most eye-popping, or most CRI accurate, etc. and just ask the simple question, which LED most accurately depicts how the room looks during daylight, it’s this batch of Nichia 219c 5000k from Wurkkos.

My subjective opinion hopefully is clearly illustrated by comparative pictures of my living room vs a couple other famous LED’s on page 1. Essentially, if you are into collecting Nichia LED’s, this light with its “cool”/daylight beam color (vs warm) is also a must-have IMHO.

[quote=cannga]

I find the TS21 to be nearly useless even when temp config has been done.

You can either make it 1) bright enough to be very useful and too hot to touch, or 2) cool enough to touch, but the brightness isn’t going to be enough for some situations.

IMO, you’re better off getting something like the S21D (another 21700 light) and running it at 35%, which is significantly brighter than the ‘cool enough to touch’ output of the TS21.

I would say that you could get the TS21 for reading books or something else that doesn’t require much light, but it begs the question ‘why would I get it at all, when there are other lights available that can do those things and more?’

For me, only because of the Nichia 219c 5000K, an excellent LED which AFAIK no one else is offering at this time.

There is a version of TS21 with Luminus SST20 LED, and I agreed with you there. No reason to buy that one. Sofirn IF25a has 4 of the same LED (instead of 3 in Wurkkos), better throw and brightness, doesn’t have the crazy button light, and doesn’t step-down as much. For me in every way a “better” light.

My other small lights (Emisar D4V2, Sofirn IF25a) have quad LED, TS21 is of similar size but fits only 3. That hurts its max brightness. Even with one less LED, something with the design causes stepdowns to occur SO quickly in comparison.

Having lots of fun with my newly acquired Opple Light Master Pro. Here are the measurements.

Note how closely this LED hugs the BBL line. And the great CRI value.
CCT 4949
Ra 95.6
Duv –0.0008 (x 0.3465, y 0.3511)

Aside from the box label, is there a way to know if it’s an SST20 or 219c flashlight on hand? I mean how would a newbie know if it’s the ordered 219c and not a SST20 ‘accidentally’ sent over?

You may be able to see the bond wires through the TIR for the SST20 version, but not for the 219C.

From my own experience Wurkkos is a legit and good company. To prevent mistake, just make sure you order from their web site or their official store on Aliexpress.

I think I saw it in a Lumintop light earlier…let me see if I can find it.

Yes…the FWAA has it: FWAA at Killzone

Im a bit confused why everyone keeps suggesting this.

I just use mine as it was shipped and have no issues with it getting too hot or dimming.

Maybe I just dont use it bright enough or long enough for this to be an issue for me?

1. Yes that’s it. If you use this light at less than max level, or use it on/off short periods around the house, the TS21 is fine IMHO.

2. If you use the light for example for safety during an evening walk, where high output continuously is desired, then there are better choices. Its fast step-downs actually bothers me A LOT less than I seem to have written about. Personally I still love the light (it’s pretty, I need to collect this LED, and I use it around the house only), but as this thread is sort of an “impression/mini review” thread, I just feel the need to let people know what I found compared to other lights.

3. Having said that, I think it’s still desirable for hobbyists, with or without OCD lol, to have correct/appropriate temperature setting. And the stock setting is too low, for example versus the standard-setting Convoy lights. My beloved Convoy lights :slight_smile: seem to have the highest external temperature measured with my IR gun, around 60° C, versus 55° or below for most other lights. The TS21 stock setting of internal temp at 45° is way too low for its own good.

(Sorry for all the edits)

Thank you very much for your reply cannga

I generally use all my lights at medium to low levels. Or sometimes somewhere near, but not at the top of their brightness levels.

Turbo only ever gets used for less than 10 seconds at a time on any of my lights.

Then there’s nothing to worry about IMHO.

Just now notice your signature. Thanks for the chuckle. :wink:

Yes it will work with and without calibration however it really comes to life after you calibrate it.

I have the E2L with 219C 4000K and it is very similar to the SST20 4000K (in the IF25a and in my modified FC11 with TIR). I have the D4V2 with nichia 219b 4500k and it is ok but not better. I had trouble visibly differentiating 2 pieces of metal (as being 2 different pieces) in a mains plug with the 219b 4500K, which was really weird, so I checked and I didn’t have this issue with the other LEDs… (including an old S2+ with XML 4C). It looks whiter but it looks also that some loss of colour distinction is going on (just as the difference low-cri vs high-cri), outside at night it feels too cold (e.g. ground looks almost black) for me. I saw someone else mention this (loss of distinction) recently in a post on BLF too.

A light at night will often be used as the main light and for that a lower temperature is more comfortable. So the 4000K LEDs are more yellow but work very well and give less eye strain than higher temperatures while not being too low such that everything appears ‘yellow’ (i.e. the predominant impression is ‘everything looks yellow/orange’, such low temperature lights to me are mainly useful as comfortable reading lights for this reason, not work lights).

I had trouble with the LH351D in that I felt everything was off upstairs, where I used a lot of varnished pine plywood, but also felt something was off downstairs with wood laminate and various hard woods in various places. This looks to have been caused by too much green, i.e. the FC11 4000K LH351D was ok for many uses but in such places unpalatable. I have no such issues with the 219B, 219C, SST20 in 4000K/4500K, nor with the XML 4C which I also like a lot.

To compare lights I did something else than make pictures a while ago: On a sunny day I shone the lamps on the sections of pine plywood in the shade and compared it to the plywood directly in the sun, with 219C 4000K, SST20 4000K, 219b 4500k. This means I could compare the lights directly with the effect of sunlight and not have to worry about the camera, white balance, displays, etc. The 4000K lights (SST20, 219C) felt closer to reality than the 4500K 219B… This may be partially due to the yellowish colour of the plywood, it would be interesting to try this with other objects.

I also tried these pocket lamps + H04RC with 5000K 351D during the day as fill in light in a shed that is partially lit up from outside when opening the door, lighting on the lit + unlit sections:

- Overcast: 4000K lights appear a bit yellow, the 219B 4500K looks almost the same as the overcast daylight.

  • Full sunshine: 4000K looks very yellow, 219B 4500K better, the H04RC looks most similar.

The problem is that in both cases you need a lot of light to light up ‘dark’ sections which are only dark in comparison with the sunlight. This means for a pocket light such colour temperatures are barely of interest as they can’t provide enough light for a reasonable time due to thermal stepdown, this is mostly a useful consideration for higher power work lights… So about 5000K could be optimal for a daylight fill-in high output work lamp, but not for a pocket lamp.

The 5000K 351D makes everything look too bland at night so not at all acceptable for use when it is dark…

All in all my conclusion after trying out more LED types/temperatures (which is the same as my conclusion from manyyears ago): for pocket lamps 4000K or perhaps a bit higher, but in any case lower than 4500K is optimal for use mostly at night.

Fascinating discussions even for this lesser known Nichia no? :+1: :slight_smile:

Below is amazing work from @maukka (HERE) showing his Nichia 219C 5000k LED’s tantalizing R9 number of 81, and Ra 94. This means the highest possible rating R9080 when used with Convoy diffuser.

Still not quite the off-the-chart level of 219b sw45k (the top line) but outstanding nevertheless. This is a great LED to collect and until Simon decides to put it in his Convoy S21D or Sofirn in their excellent Sofirn IF25a, the Wurkkos TS21 is the best or only choice for a light with 21700 battery, with USB-C charging a bonus. (I really really like that red one!)

It seems that Wurkkos has a good batch of 219c LEDs.

Keep in mind, not all 219c LEDs are equal. I’ve had good and bad samples.
On average, the 219c has a higher duv = more green, than the 219b samples I have had.
But, there have been some very nice 219c samples in 4000k and 5000k.

I still have, and like, a few of the nicer 219c LEDs. I have not been able to source good 219c tints. So, the poor tinted 219c LEDS have been replaced with 219b, or shaved 351d, or more recently, 519a LEDs.

To me, the 219c and 351d are very similar. They both tend to have positive duv (green), but there are good neutral to negative duv batches. The difference is that the 351d is cheaper, easier to source multiple CCTs and duv reduces nicely when the dome is shaved.

Lately, I’ve been testing 519a LEDs and they will be my new high CRI got to LED.

FB

I’ve found the key to happiness is not to look at flashlights back to back :slight_smile: , especially if against 219b sw45k. By itself a lot of lights look ok to my eyes, only with comparison then a green tint is emphasized.

I do have LH351D in 5000k (Sofirn headlamp) and 4000k (Sofirn SP36 BLF) and enjoy using both. Here is the picture of LH351D 5000k vs Nichia 219c 5000k. Now that I think about it; I’d like to test that LH351D with my Opple.

These variations are what make the hobby so much fun and interesting. It’s amazing how two 5000k LED’s could render colors so differently from each other. I am going to check again later to make sure I didn’t make a mistake labeling or mixing up the pictures :person_facepalming: lol.

For me, more than the ceiling and wall comparison, I found it interesting that the 219C can show the difference between the blinds, the window frame, and the wall. I think my preference is for a rosier tint than a greener tint.

Hopefully my TS21 arrives early next week so I can join in.

If anyone wants to do something fun and see how comparison whether photographically or in real life could trick our visual memory and exaggerate the tint we see, first go here:

and look at those 3 wall shots. The Nichia 219c 5000k, sandwiched between a very yellow SST20 4000k and a very magenta 219b sw45k, looks fairly “neutral” there without too much of a tint. Then come back here and look at the 2 pictures above and see how so magenta/rosy it looks next to the very greenish LH351D 5000k. All of this of course depends on your monitor, but I think it should be obvious.

In real life by itself without back to back comparison? 219c 5000k looks cool, “neutral” (don’t give me a hard time over this word, I know you want to, but please don’t :innocent: , and not magenta at all. IMHO.

thank you for the Opple measurement of the 219c 5000K at Tint Duv –0.0008

I agree that is a very “Neutral” (close to the BBL), Tint DUV, not to be confused with Neutral White Color Temperature…

the confusion over the word neutral can be clarified by including CCT or DUV qualifiers. Also helps to add DUV when using the term Tint

the most confused and bastardized term is “Neutral Tint”, which in popular mis-use refers to Neutral Color Temperature, not Tint DUV.

The Opple Tint DUV value, helps end that chaos and confusion…

DUV –0.0008 will look less green, or more magenta, than higher values, such as Tint DUV 0.0030, which is about where the SST-20 and LH351d tend to land.

otoh, sw45k Tint DUV measure about –0.0100, and anything with a higher number will look greener, or less magenta.

our brain is very good as spotting differences when making comparisons. it is also very good at white balancing itself, to a single source, after a few minutes

not all 219c have green tint like the SST-20… I have been suprised by several relatively more magenta 219c recently. Here is one light with 4000K 219c and DUV –0.0018

I quite like the Tint DUV… but I still know in the back of my mind that 219b, 519a, and E21a, all have higher R9 CRI than 219c…

choices are good
for people seeking Neutral Tint DUV similar to 219C, the Nichia 519a and E21a are superior in CRI R9, to 219c