Am I just being a pansy about the whole li-ion thing?

I remember in a thread about anodizing, when I explained what the process was, OL brought up the fact that it included Lye, Acid, Electricity - all scary stuff. :open_mouth: I was surprised, because that stuff doesn’t scare me one bit. Then I thought about the stuff OL does, why he uses hot flame torches, drills, saws, knives - all very scary stuff too, that didn’t scare him. Then I realized that as long as you know what you are doing - AND you are careful, you will be OK. For most of us, the most dangerous thing we do is drive a car, and we do THAT every day. So in everything we do safety first!
BTW, even so, I just had a close call 30 minutes ago with some Li-ion cells. read my post in the forum topic concerning harvesting some cells from a B&D battery pack bought at Home Depot.

I’ve never had a problem with lithiums. I used to mess around with rc cars with my Dad and Brother for a few years. And a couple months ago we were going through the garage and found the 7 year old lipos, all of them inflated and puffed up.

Now my lions, I think a good rule of thumb is if during charging they don’t get warm and there aren’t any big scratches in the casing, they are pretty darn safe.

Hey everyone, thanks for your continued feedback, definitely given me plenty to think about.

Frankly I would never use unprotected cells or cheapo cells under any circumstances. I would only even consider using the best or near best protected cells I could find with a top quality charger, and a multimeter. Also like I said I don’t see myself using a multi-cell li-ion light either because from what I understand that is when you have the most potential for problems.

I totally understand the car analogy some of you have used and trust me I was quite hesitant to get behind the wheel when I was a teenager, I didn’t even get my learners permit until I was 17, could have done it at 15, and in retrospect should have but whatever.

Anyways I’m not going to run out and buy a li-ion light and batteries and charger and multi right now because I don’t have the money (broke college kid) but I definitely will at some point…probably :stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks again very much. I’m sure I’m a weirdo to some of you for even having this dilemma but its just the kind neurotic basket case I am :smiley:

I’m sure you are right. The example I heard was if you use multiple cells and one is charged and the other is not the current will flow through the uncharged one causing it to rapidly charge or maybe it causes the full one to rapidly discharge, I don’t remember exactly but it made sense when it was being explained. But I suppose if you check your voltages with a multi and make sure they are both the same technically this problem should not happen.

if i remember right its called thermal runaway. when a full cell tries to compensate for a dead cell, it creates heat. when that heat gets to be too much is when you end up with a vent with flame… cant remember all the technical details… but thats the just of it. same if you have a cell short out while in a device. its the heat that ultimately causes the VWF…

someone correct me if im wrong… as im sure i am

If I remember right reading some university professor’s study on batteries, li-ion battery will have high chance of run away for condition below:
1.FULL charged and temperature above 65c.
2.60% charged and temperature above 80c.
Basically when there are more energy in the battery it will be more dangerous if temperature get higher. So make sure your li-ion batteries are cool is the key, either while charging or discharging.

Some of the worst advice i've ever heard on the subject ..

This is my point. I have 6 Sanyo cells all the same age. One has gone bad, way below what it should be. Now in a multi cell light you would not know it was going bad, you couldn’t, you may see some run time problems, but which cell? If you did not notice a problem with the run times, which is very possible if you use the torch for 10/15 mins at a time. Then you will be in trouble.

The fact that you have not had any problems so far does not mean you are being safe or doing it right.

So to the OP You MUST get a DMM! They are cheap. And get good cells, the charger doesn’t have to be expensive, mine are cheap, but because I have a DMM, I can check that the charger is doing exactly what it should. JJ Findlayson Cannot. So if his very expensive charger decides to charge above 4.25v, he will be unaware of the fact until it is too late.

Marc.

Different people have different ideas, the “safe” way does not always work perfectly, bit like people worrying that the plane is going to crash, despite the FACT that statistically they were more likely to get injured/killed driving to the airport!!
If you have an opinion express it is my motto, esp when it has been asked for, I get slated for calling the veyron a badged up skoda, it’s a hell of a car, but to my mind no where near as impressive as the Maccy F1, just my opinion of course, others have theirs, don’t ever be afraid to express yours, otherwise you become another sheep, and there are way too many of them in the world imo.
tabs

The only advise I’d give is buy the best batteries and charger you can afford. Stay away from cheap 18650s- any battery with a “Fire” in it is suss. Go with known brands like Panasonic, Eagletac etc. Then you’ll have little to worry about.

The McLaren F1 can carry 50% more human cargo, and should win out by that metric alone.

I would 100% own the F1 over the Veyron...please send me your donations now!

NO, I should get the donations first ha ha.
I just can’t get my head around the amount of technology and time difference between the two, then how little difference in performance, personally I’d have a Mosler over the F1, maybe just cause me NZ mate used to work on them in Norfolk, before they moved to Cambridge(both UK), he now makes looms etc for Caterham F1, about 5 miles down the road from me.
tabs

Why are you so against getting a cheap DMM, I seen you post in the other thread too. They are cheap, and you can check the voltage so quick and easy, I don’t get it. Then you flame people who don’t agree with you.

Look up the thread about the TK monster explosion, un-matched cells……….BOOOOM. Pipe bomb. Your fingers are gone. Arguing about not needing a DMM doesn’t make sense. Sure you don’t NEED it, but why not to check stuff now and again.

Ive thought the same thing at times. Lets just hope other innocent people within range dont get ripped apart in the process.

The probability of catastrophic failure is low.

The consequences of a catastrophic failure can be hugely expensive. Or lethal.

Your choice.

And your consequences!

Me - I’m not a wuss about lithium cells. And none of mine that haven’t been provoked (As in charging a 10440 at 50 amps - this is going to go bang even with inert components - work out the energy) have failed catastrophically.

But if they do, it is going to be very bad.

I’ve had a lot of lithium ion cells die - they live for around three-five years from the day they were made till the day they die whether they are used or not.

None of them that weren’t deliberately misused has failed in a bad way. All of the ones I’ve deliberately misused have failed in a very, very bad way. The by-products of catastrophic failure are lethal. So don’t be bad to your cells.

personally, I’m not religious about checking voltage. on my single cell edc’s, they all run protected cells and drivers with low voltage warning, the cells always get charged before warning, mainly because if I get my charger out, I charge everything.

what I do always check are my high draw multi cell lights, both when the cells come out and when they leave the charger.

this usually also leads to checking tailcap currents, again, it may be pointless but it may give me an idea if somethings up.

If someone does not wish to do this, that’s their bag, I just do what suits me. I spend more time checking things when I’ve just built a light, once it seems to be working as it should, I tend to put it to work and get on with my life.

I do think that a lot depends on usage, I check my edc’s less because they tend to not be used harshly - always memory low. I also strap a c8 to my head daily, that’s how worried I truly am about the whole thing.

I say, bone up on everything you can, use decent cells, a charger you have personally verified is good and operate some common sense, you should be ok. Abuse things and at some point, you wont be.

I also dont think the culture of warning people about the dangers should change, if someone had an accident as a result of some inferred advice on my part, I wouldn’t sleep tbh, I’d rather be too harsh than too lenient about the potential risks.

I dont know, I kinda like the “not for beginners”, it may keep people on the trail from blinding me like I accidentally blind them at times :wink:

I just look at it as a risk assessment and figure out what the risk is, and what you can do to lessen each risk.

First off, the risk is extremely low: How many hundreds of thousands (millions/10s of millions) of cheap batteries are sold online so far? I live in America, news organizations would fall all over themselves to tell us if even one person died from a Li-ion battery exploding…yet I don’t hear about this, and when I search and find a story about an “exploding” Li-ion, it usually ends up being a “outgassing” battery, more of a pressurized flame, not an explosion. I have found one story with a bad cell phone battery that exploded and killed a guy…a cheap copy Chinese battery…the rest are “near misses” and when you dig into the story it seems they all have a common thread: cheap batteries and a warning sign that is ignored. So: I charge when I’m around in the kitchen, I monitor my batteries for temperature/flashlight runtime (hand on light for temp is common sense), not use cheap Chinese batteries, use protected batteries to prevent over/under charge and occasionally check with a voltmeter when possible as an added precaution. Since I’ve never heard of anyone doing this being killed or maimed by a Li-ion in a light, I think its an acceptable risk, but there is STILL a risk, but its very very small. And, there is risk with almost every choice you make. Probably hiking in the dark without a powerful light could make me come across or be vulnerable to higher probability dangers than with one, all things considered.

Now even though they dont seem to really literally explode often, its pressure we are playing with which can make a grenade, I’ve seen pictures of what parts of the light in an exploding light do to metal objects they hit and I like multi cell lights best, so again: I only use protected cells, no Chinese cheapos, I monitor and I will know when my battery run time decreases because I tend to time my hikes/walks and notice if I’m left with a dimmer light (or in the dark), I open and re-check a light I haven’t used for a bit to make sure of battery alignment. As an added precaution I try to check them with a voltmeter when they come off the charger, especially as they age. The only other precaution I could see to take would be maybe drilling a small hole in each light so I have a possible flamethrower instead of a metal projectile if all other precautions fail.

All in all its a tiny risk, but I still try to minimize it, and then don’t really worry about it after my precautions. One is probably millions of times more likely to get hit by a car fiddling with your light as you cross the street than having one blow up, but I still cross the street (while aiming the light in the general direction of oncoming cars as I cross). So I understand both perspectives: yeah the risk is so low one can downplay it, since many daily activities you do are more likely to get you killed, but I would say you should always warn people of any risk you know of, and I’m not going to completely ignore any risk of serious injury I can do something about, but minimize what I can with reasonable effort and certainty (drilling holes in my lights = meh…but the rest, of course).

YES

+1 on the McLaren F1, but not after Mr Bean gets his hands on it!