I'm shocked by this Shocker... (de-domed now, more info)

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Tom E
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I'm shocked by this Shocker... (de-domed now, more info)

I really struggled with a recent BTU Shocker mod/upgrade - disappointing output, disappointing amps from the BTU driver, even with a resistor mod. Removing the resistor made no difference... What do I do? How do I explain to the owner after all the cost and time, only 10% improvement?

So, I reverted back to what worked once before... Swapped in this driver from Hank: IOS_3.5A. It's a little messier installing - slightly undersized, had to add some copper strips and solder to be sure it gets tightened down well, because the original driver is like 22 mm, this IOS driver is 21 mm or so and a thinner contact board. Got it in, with the usual XM-L2 U2/SinkPAD, 20 gauge, lapped, surfaces, copper braid on springs, yada, yada.

On KeepPower 3400's, got a respectable, though not stunning 3.55A measured across the switch, with lumens of 3,753 @start, 3,627 @30 secs. Then also copper braided the + and - springs on the carrier (not just the 3 cell springs), and it improved to 3.76A @switch, lumens of 3,876 - 3,740, throw of 178 kcd. So, seeing a pattern ofreducing resistance and getting improved amps, I tired 3 fresh SONY 30 amp rated batteries (from FT). This is the result:

5.0 amps measures across the switch, lumens: 4,760 - 4,461, throw 212 kcd (throw # is low because measured at 4.3 meters).

Wow - this blew me away! Ok, it's not a realistic use scenario - the SONY's are 1600 mAh unprotected. But it does show the potential, and if say you want that "wow" effect, you may get 15-20 mins or so on high I'm guessing? It's probably even better on Samsung 20Q's or 20R's, and I tried Panasonic PD's (not fully charged) and got a respectable 4.46A measurement and 4,386 - 4,192 lumens, and at 2900 mAh, you could get decent runtime but are gambling with unprotected batteries in series. I ran the light for 3 minutes straight and all went well, slightly warming of the body in the area of the pill.

So, this IOS driver is going direct drive in high, though medium and low still work fine. Advantage is no auto kick down from "turbo" also. I emailed Hank about this 3 batts/3 LED's series configuration earlier before using it, and he already speculated it may go direct drive, so now it's pretty much proven on this Shocker. I would also assume you may be able to get the same result on a DRY driver with all the same mods (copper braiding, 20 gauge wire, copper stars, etc.). I did one Shocker upgrade with a DRY driver and got 3,944 lumens @30 secs and 190 kcd on Panasonic PD's, but not sure if I copper braided all 5 springs in the carrier, and don't have a recorded amps measurement to confirm it.

Updates (Aug 20)

Fixed up my amp measurement leads - now using 14 gauge silicon wires. So on the Shocker I'm working on now has de-domed XM-L2 U2 1A's on Noctigons, measured 4.7A on Panasonic PD's, 5.7A on SONY 30A and Samsung INR 20Q's, and absolute insane #'s for lumens and throw at 5.7A: 4,100 lumens at 30 secs, 467 kcd measured at 4.3 meters. Now there's a couple of differences - I jumpered the current limiting resistors (jumper wire over one resistor), cleaned up contact surfaces with CRC 2-26, using emitters/stars from IOS (known good!!).

  • 6.5 minute test: 118F at hottest surface (pill area), cells down to 3.8v, 4.1A switch measurement

 

  • With KeepPower 3400's: 4.15A with cells at 4.10v, still warm, lumens: 3,478 at 30 secs, throw: 392 kcd

 

 

Edited by: Tom E on 08/20/2013 - 18:30
Slewflash
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Insane! What’s the heat management like?
Does it ever get too hot to hold, or does it stay at a reasonable temperature?
I know when I was out tonight taking beam shots it was (and still is) around 5deg C (41F), and my stock Shocker held up really well. Can’t say the same for the SRK though, that thing heats up like a frying pan.

Slewflash 

dazed1
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5.0 amps measures across the switch, lumens: 4,760 – 4,461, throw 212 kcd (throw # is low because measured at 4.3 meters).

Omg Tom, that is amazing!

Fenix TK61 MOD> resistor, transistors, copper heatsink, Artic Cooling MX4, dedome, 3A > 5.7A ~ 1700 lumens > (600.000cd)

Tom E
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The Shocker is a hugh hunk of aluminum (just pick it up), and considering 1,400 lumens coming out of each LED, it doesn't do so bad. The LED's don't sit directly over the hollow part of the pill, but just outside, where there is more aluminum than just the thickness of the pill top. The SinkPAD's, AS5, and smoothed contact surfaces (to 2500 grit) I'm sure are doing their job.

ohaya
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Hi Tom,

Do you have any idea why the problem with the original mod with the original driver? Maybe there’re different versions of the “stock” BTU drivers?

Tom E
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ohaya wrote:
Hi Tom, Do you have any idea why the problem with the original mod with the original driver? Maybe there're different versions of the "stock" BTU drivers?

Oh - I did measurements of the stock Shocker and it was above average - lumens: 3,100 - 2,971, throw: 126 kcd on KP 3400's @4.15v, but forgot to measure amps but suspect it's 3.6A - 3.8A, maybe? So, the driver was ok with stock XML-U2's on Aluminum, didn't have any shorts or anything else go wrong to potentially harm the driver, but still after the mods, on other BTU drivers I got 3.6-3.7A or so after the mod upgrades.

relic38
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That is incredible. I cannot get my DRY driver to give that current. Will not go above 4.3A or so on fresh cells. On a power supply it will (I can go up to 6A), but I do not get anywhere near those lumens or throw.

Welcome the night.

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relic38 wrote:
That is incredible. I cannot get my DRY driver to give that current. Will not go above 4.3A or so on fresh cells. On a power supply it will (I can go up to 6A), but I do not get anywhere near those lumens or throw.

DRY driver on turbo is direct drive, which means all the little resistances in the circuit build up, sand/polish contact points and chuck in some high discharge cells, NCR18650PDs, IMR/INR/ICR.

Slewflash 

Tom E
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relic38 wrote:
That is incredible. I cannot get my DRY driver to give that current. Will not go above 4.3A or so on fresh cells. On a power supply it will (I can go up to 6A), but I do not get anywhere near those lumens or throw.

That was my first jaw dropping moment - seeing 5 amps on the meter.

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One of the biggest things can be cells. You have to have a battery that can give out high amps with low resistance, before you can get high amps. Everything can be perfect and still no cookie. I usually test all my builds now, DD straight from the battery, (or carrier), to the led, (on a big slug of Aluminum), to see what I am getting. Then I know if it's lower once it's in the light that I have to go hunting what the log jam is.

My PayPal address: oldlumens (insert the @ sign here) gmail.com

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tabetha
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As I’ve just got a BTU, what would be the most gutsy batteries to use ?, not bothered about cost.
What is a DRY driver, all I know is I went for the regulated cool white version, but not up on all the lingo yet, please help a sad old git out, thanks
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tabetha wrote:
As I've just got a BTU, what would be the most gutsy batteries to use ?, not bothered about cost. What is a DRY driver, all I know is I went for the regulated cool white version, but not up on all the lingo yet, please help a sad old git out, thanks tabs

Well for the stock light with the stock BTU driver, there's not much of an issue with the batteries, I believe - a high quality protected cell is probably the best you can do, like the KeepPower's - I know there may be other high quality protected batteries out there, and am really not sure if the low resistance unprotected batteries (best seems to be the Samsung 20Q or 20R, though the SONY 30 amp rated ones do well) will give you any advantage in the stock light.

 The DRY driver is an option on purchase from Ric, and is also sold separately for $5. So, there isn't much to the driver - no boost, no buck, just direct drive (as opposed to regulated) on high, and I believe low or poor PWM on lower modes (flickering). With the DRY driver you may get higher output from the Shocker, but not too much without doing modifications. Basically the DRY driver is cheap because it's a cheapo driver.

bdiddle
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Do you know how that driver performs on 2 cells with 1 led? Does it only go direct drive with 3 cells + 3 led’s?

Think I need one of these drivers Big Smile
Thanks!

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Tom E
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bdiddle wrote:
Do you know how that driver performs on 2 cells with 1 led? Does it only go direct drive with 3 cells + 3 led's? Think I need one of these drivers Big Smile Thanks!

This is a direct quote from Hank: It's more likely to output 3.5A with 2*18650. With 3LEDs and 3Cells the driver will probably go linear and we don't know if it will do 3.5A to each. The output  current has not been tested, so we can't really say it's truly 3.5A even if that is what we requested.

Pretty sure it's 3.5A output though from previous posts, but not sure...

 
bdiddle
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Sounds like a happy accident, haha.

Wish I had the funds to get a BTU shocker

Newb

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ive got to get some of those batteries!!!!

Would you mind keeping the wrong flashlight?
Best wish, May
Tmart service team

 

Soumil wrote:

PLEASE HELP ME GEARBEsT! IM LITERALLY CRYING!

 

tabetha
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Thanks for your comments and help, it is very much appreciated, at least I’m learning ha ha!!
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Tom E
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jmpaul320 wrote:
ive got to get some of those batteries!!!!

Yes, or Samsung 20Q's or 20R's - might even be better? Check your amps though to be sure it's within reason. Also please check your copper braiding in the carrier, not sure if I did all 5, and I'm also concerned how they hold up under battery changes... I've had some fail after a while, but it may be because of my earlier methods. Seems like I learn a little more with every mod.... With the solder wick, it helps having a little extra length curled up, and you have to keep the solder from wicking up or down from the ends. If it does, toss it and try again. Those springs w/solder wick in the Shocker carrier take a beating with long cells like the KP protected ones.

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instead of a good 22 or 20 ga wire? I usually even leave the silicone insulation on the short wire in case one end lets go, which hasn’t happened to date. I also solder the wire inside the spring, up against the bottom ring so that it’s on the board and in contact with the spring coil and at the top I solder it to the inside of the top 2 coils where they meet. In this way I’m not interfering with the springs travel or it’s connection to the cell, just transferring the current to the wire.

If it’s a larger spring, like on the tail switch, I actually put a bit of a coil into the wire so that it compresses vertically instead of trying to bend over and chance getting in between spring coils. I’m finding this addition makes the single biggest difference when modding a light, aside from an emitter swap. It also lets you tweak the most from a driver swap.

Tom E
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Dale - don't think I tried the silicone wire, I think (maybe once?). The springs compress close to fully flat though with KP 3400's, so wondering if there's room for the insulation on 22 gauge for example. I should really try it though. It sounds like I solder the solder wick ends exactly like you describe for the wire. Well, got two more Shocker battery carriers to wire up at home, so, time to try it!! Wondering if it would make a difference for a TN31, hhmm...

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Very impressive results Tom. And I thought my 3700 lumen BTU was impressive. Now you made it possible to get another 1000 lumens out of it. Wow. Very cool experiment. That setup isn’t to practical with little batteries and direct drive though. Might be if fun to have a spare BTU “turbocharged” like that just for fun.

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Wonder if using lower quality batteries are the culprit for other not satisfied owners of BTU?

Fenix TK61 MOD> resistor, transistors, copper heatsink, Artic Cooling MX4, dedome, 3A > 5.7A ~ 1700 lumens > (600.000cd)

ohaya
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dazed1 wrote:
Wonder if using lower quality batteries are the culprit for other not satisfied owners of BTU?

In my case, I don’t think so. I’ve tried 3xEfest IMRs and also new (bought in anticipation of the Shocker) 3xCGR18650 (high drain) batteries, with same results, ~100Klux.

Edit: These are the CGR18650s:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230794118631?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3...

dazed1
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Thanks ohaya.

Did you message Ric about your issue?

Fenix TK61 MOD> resistor, transistors, copper heatsink, Artic Cooling MX4, dedome, 3A > 5.7A ~ 1700 lumens > (600.000cd)

ohaya
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dazed1 wrote:
Thanks ohaya.

Did you message Ric about your issue?

Hi,

Yes, I did, but FYI, I don’t want to derail Tom’s thread here, so you can check this other thread about my situation:

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/22439

Jim

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Well done, de-dome (400K lux?) and beam-shots please! J)

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Next logical step is to dedome, just make sure the get the PICS before and after!

Nice work as usual Tom.

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Dunno bout de-doming the Shocker - think there are focusing issues, it's been done, think'n maybe vinh, maybe mentioned on CPF? can't recall. This shocker is on the way to Colorado - owner. Jim (ohaya) mentioned the LCK-LED driver to me (http://www.lck-led.com/5000ma-driver-modes-p-935.html), the size and function match up to a Shocker - wondering now how that driver would workout, if better than the IOS 3.5A rated driver I used. Think'n it would go direct drive, but even if not, if it tries to achieve 5 amps regulated, wow, another shocking setup Cool.

 

Man, de-domed, 400+ kcd with all those lumens and spill would be insane!!

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Try it with some 1st gen XML T6s, if dedoming does much. I know with the tn31 it more than doubles throw, not sure about this though but it definitely should increase.

Slewflash 

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um, now this is outrageous! waaaay to go tom E

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tom, I have used that driver before, it is a good one imo, infact I ordered two more last night for a couple of convoy l2 builds, the last one I received looks nothing like the picture on that page…..I’m hoping these next twp will be identical to the first o recieved or I’m in the cacky but I will report back.

fwiw, I used it in an mt-g2 build and I couldn’t be happier with the outcome, really good mode spread and no whining.

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