Tint mixing, improving de-domed emitters. (Are XM-L2s and XP-G2s good options to MT-G2 in some ways?)

The dedomed T6s I have went yellowish, maybe a bit of brown. Have you dedomed a warm white, like say T4-7C and if so what did you get?

And no green in nature is not bad, but when you are hiking in the green forest at night, adding green to the green is probably going to be an overabundance of green…which is why I didnt really like the idea previously. Its probably kind of neat to have in a city like setting.

5C1 sure looks warm to me.

[quote=B42]

Have you dedomed a warm white, like say T4-7C and if so what did you get? [/quote]

Yes I have dedomed XM-L T4 7C. Result was warmer than XM-L2 8B4. It would probably be a "9" tint.. :p Certainly no green or yellow tint in that range. It was just very warm. :p

If you walk around with an 7 or "8 tinted" light for some time, then turn on a "5 tinted" light. It will easily look more like white NW without any hint of warmth at all. If you put on a "3" tint it can even look look like CW. Eyes adapt... If you are used to various CW tints, then a "5" will look warm in comparison. But it will not look warm compared to a proper warm, and it its not warm by definition. When I say definition, im thinking about Cree datasheets.

I have put some lines in.

Right, but you were talking about adding some red, maybe dedoming 8D4 would do better?

No, it shows the differences fairly well :stuck_out_tongue: Actually, I’m wrong! It shows the differences…
EXTREMELY
ELOQUENTLY
BRILL… no, no puns here.

It makes my eyeballs chuckle like a ferret with a grocery bag.

I for one would LOVE to have been able to look at, say, take your idea to the proverbial nth degree and put one of approximately each Chromaticity Bin at exactly X cm from a “Reference White” wall & shoot it with ABC camera settings, then put it out as a grid. How easy would it be to “point and shoot” instead of having to imagine the coordinates of some Cx / Cy grid? “Do I want a 3C or a 3B and how exactly am I supposed to know?” More importantly “Can I stand the weird color rings of this or that bin?” Cree should really hire you to do this…

Sorry. I’m smitten. I need more alcohol… :beer:

huh? Not sure if im following you now..

Its probably because I wasn't clear when saying adding red. My fault.. Im talking about adding more pink/rosy/red tint.. Not warm emitters.

See this picture.

Left side= cool

Middle= neutral

right side= warm

Now, lets stay in the middle, inside the NW range. A 3S will be yellow, probably even greenish. Its in the NW range, above the black line.

A 4R will be more rosy in the tint (its got more red in it). Its still in the NW range, but below the black line. Where more of the pink/rosy tones are. (I have a tendency to just say red)

Mix a 3S and a 4R and you end up with with pretty nice and white NW light..


In terms of temperature. Mix a CW and a WW and you get NW.

In terms of color. Mix an emitter with yellow or greenish tint with an emitter emitter with more rosy tint (I normally say red,sorry) and you get more white light. That black line in the middle represent the whitest light you get in the CW, NW, and WW range.

Makes sense?


If you don't think the colors of the picture above matches the real life that well, well, don't take it too seriously.

This picture shows things in a different and more colorful way.

See that little black line in the middle "black body locus". It stretches from blue to orange. CW-WW. Like the black line I put in the picture above. If you have too much green/yellow, which is on top of the black line. Add some pink/red which is on the bottom. Then you "neutralize".

Its quite simple. If you have to much of a color. Add the opposite.

Oh I was just thinking that possibly the 8D4 dedomed would get you more into the orangy red, but maybe 4R is better for “red”. I am not familiar with how they actually look.

Ill try to make a more visual example. Rough example of the theory. Which also works quite good in real life.

BLUE: Represents a typical CW emitter.

Then, it got dedomed, became warmer (not warm, just NW looking in terms of temperature). But it also got a more yellowgreen looking tint.. Say, somewhere in the greenish circle.

You want to get rid of that tint, but maybe stick to roughly the same temperature range (Kelvin). You take a more rosy looking emitter and combine it with a more greenyellow looking emitter.

BOOM. Combined they end up in the white circle. Fairly white NW light appears.. Green/yellow-ish tint gone..

:party:

It all becomes clear then.. :beer:

If not, drink more. Maybe Ive been drinking too much when trying to explain this too. But drink some more and lovely colors appear. :beer:

Thanks for the graph and explanation,

I have been struggling to understand ANSI, but now “I have seen the light” <<< forgive him, his fingers are not always connected to his brain >>> :Sp

When the treasurer eases the financial restrictions I have a Kung that is getting an upgrade to XM-L2 U2’s, I am thinking 2*U2 1c, 1*U2 1a, to provide the power and a 1*T6 4c to provide some warmth, no dedoming as I want flood.

Cheers David

David, its nice to hear you have seen the light. :bigsmile:

Ill set up a few examples, just to shine some light on the the case.. :p

1

XM-L2 U2 1C - 65 CRI - Above the black line (normally hint of yellow)

XM-L2 U2 1C - 65 CRI - Above the black line (normally hint of yellow)

XM-L2 T6 4C - 75 CRI -Above the black line (normally hint of yellow)

Theoretical tint = 2C tint with 68,3 CRI. (CRI is not calculated like that as far as I know, but lets keep it dumb and simple)

2

You could also just use 3x XM-L2 U2 2C if its available. Then you get XM-L2 one emitter with slightly higher bin, but lower CRI.

3

XM-L2 U1 1A - 65 CRI - Below the black line (normally hint of rosy, if not purple in the CW range, certainly no green or yellow)

XM-L2 U1 1A - 65 CRI - Below the black line (normally hint of rosy, if not purple in the CW range, certainly no green or yellow)

XM-L2 T6 4C - 75 CRI - Above the black line (normally hint of yellow)

Outcome of the emitters, marginally cooler than option "2" (due to 1A vs 1C), probably more white looking light (due to mixing tints with slightly opposite tints) If playing with emitter mixing, I would probably try something more like that.


The stuff above are just simple theory. In order to get what you want, you need to know what you want to go and exactly what you have. Some prefer to stay below the black line, some above. I think most are very happy as long as they stay on the middle, with no distinct colors. As white light as possible. I believe its beneficial to mix tints that are below and over the line in order to get there, assuming white light is the goal.

There is said to be CRI benefits from mixing various colors. Not sure if its actually any visual difference. Personally don't see the point in mixing a CW XM-L with a "C" tint and a WW XM-L with a "C" tint. Then you could have just bought a typical NW "C" tint from the start and got 100% even light when looking at hotspot/spill edge, normally with just as good CRI and output if not better.

But if you started with CW emitters, and wanted NW in a multi emitter light using lots of emitters, well, buying a few WW emitters is cheaper than buying a bunch of NW emitters and replacing all.

Basically, there have to be a purpose for emitter mixing, otherwise, just stick to several of the same type, assuming you really like that type.


I have a 3rd SRK, it uses 3X 5B1. I think the tint is nice, but its slightly on the yellow side if things and I would probably not mind if overall tint was more white in that particular light. Swapping one 5B1 with a 3A might get me there... Just an example.

I think multi emitter lights offer great opportunities in mixing tints, and shaping the beam. No need to have a bunch of similar tinted lights when you can play around with nuances.

Use the high resolution ansiwhite chart to see all tints easily.

I know what you are talking about, I’m just talking about the specifics of the particular tints and how they look, wondering which actually visually is more red (I have seen neither of those tints in person). Yes, you’d use 2 different LEDs to balance the 8D4 if you were trying to match tints to get to “neutral”. Somehow my very warm T5 7C seems to “reset” my appreciation to the CW emitters later on. I’m wondering what warmer/redder would look like.

This is exactly what I've been looking for for months now, but I can't seem to find XM-L2 2C anywhere!

I have been looking at what is available in reasonably priced stores, XM-L2 U2 is avaiable in 1a, 1b, 1c.
The BBL goes through 1a, so that will be the three U2’s.

I found T6’s in 1a, 3a, 3b, 3c, 4c, 5b, and a T4 5d2.

As I can get u2 1a and T4 5d2, on Noctigon, from the one place, IOS, those are my choices, the T4 looks as though it will warm up (maybe 2d/3a) the U2’s for a reasonable distance and (for me) cool is better for contrast at a distance.
So 3*u2 1a and a T4 5d2 :quest:

Now all I need to do is improve the heat characteristics of the kung, which will be easier than groveling explaining to the treasurer why I want to spend $25plus on a $40 light that already works :~ especially as I am waiting for three lights, 6 decent batteries, a soldering station and some other small things to arrive.

Cheers David

Well maybe she’d take a much more positive view if she knew how you were only trying to make the light safe so it didnt heat up too much and burn down the house :wink:

Ditto, for quite a lot of us, I expect.

Has anyone ever seen a “comparo” — a set/series of pictures of a single LED model but showing the actual output of different “bins”? Maybe no more difficult than just bare LEDs shining on a white wall?

Before I buy another XM-L I want to see what I’m getting! These “NW” ones (3C and 3D, IIRC) really suck. The “NW” (~5000K) part is only at the hotspot, surrounded by a large ring of “rotten cat urine” green, surrounded by a huge ring of “lavender” or “periwinkle” or some other weird color in the ~17,000K range (measured). Even without a reflector, the effect is impossible to ignore, even in a “busy” scene (i.e. not just on white walls!)… And according to your reports here, de-doming would make things worse, color-wise, even if I didn’t mind more “throw”.

I’m assuming I got (from both CNQ and FT) some Cheap clones…

It just seems to me, since we’re primarily discussing visual effects and topics, reliable pictures would help…

Sorry about the OT, but it struck a nerve… In my work, seeing colors accurately is Very Important, and these “white” LEDs aren’t helping the Seeing.

Dim

THAT’s the LED I want!!

Question: Are you talking about “even light” with a multi-emitter host, or do you get that from individual LEDs? Say, an XM-L T6 in 3C?

Mine don’t do that. In deep and shallow C8s, in P60s, in a couple of F20s, on High in a 105c driver w/o reflector, no matter what I do, I can only dream of “100% even light”!! The CRI doesn’t even matter at this point. I’m just hoping for “monochrome”.

Sorry for all the OT chatter, your multi-emitter plan is sweet and dear to my heart, so I’ll go back to lurking until I can afford a multi.

Dim

T5 7C sounds like an unreal combo btw. (too high bin for that tint)

Not sure if I fully understand your question here. You are wondering what warmer/redder would look like compared to a 7C?

Warmer: Say you have a 3000K emitter (kinda like a 7C) How does warmer look like? How does more orange light look like? Light a candle inside a black room, I believe its around 1900k? Mix it with your 3000K light by pointing your light in the ceiling (assuming the ceiling is white) and look at the color in the room. That is what warmer looks depending on how you mix.

Red: To me red is generally found below the BBL (Black Body Locus, the black line seen in pictures above). It looks more red. I consider a 6A1 to be more red and rosy than a 7C1. But the 7C is warmer, and more orange.

How the various tints look, best way is the see them live.

[quote=Lothar]

This is exactly what I've been looking for for months now, but I can't seem to find XM-L2 2C anywhere!

[/quote]

Hopefully someone will get it soon, until then. As long as you have a multi emitter light, you could always "mix the tint" yourself. :)

[quote=pommie] So 3*u2 1a and a T4 5d2 :quest: Now all I need to do is improve the heat characteristics of the kung, which will be easier than -groveling- explaining to the treasurer why I want to spend $25plus on a $40 light that already works :~ especially as I am waiting for three lights, 6 decent batteries, a soldering station and some other small things to arrive. Cheers David [/quote]

You could try that combo.. There is really no right or wrong. My ideal Kung would be 2X U2 1A dedomed mixed with 2x T4 5D2.

Btw, judging on what you have incoming you seem to be in good company on this forum.. :p lol


Dimbo, ill see if I get back to you better later, but no. I don't get 100% even light. Especially not in a typical single emitter light. That can be seen easily on the hotspot vs spill on say, 4C and 3B in the wallshot I posted earlier .. Kinda like you describe various of your lights..

dimbo it sounds like you need a hi cri as much as you need an even tint, have a look at illumination supplies stock, they list some 90cri xm-l2’s and xp-g2’s but they are bare and need flowing onto a board of choice. might be worth a look.

fwiw, I love my xintd x3 with xm-l2 6a1, maybe have a look at that emitter, I’m also keen on the xm-l2 5a1’s from intloutdoor now I’ve fit a few, their minimum 80cri with a nice cream tint.

sorry for the thread hijack racer86, carry on.

Ah you are right, mistyped, I meant T4 7C, not T5. Yes seeing in RL is better, not sure where to go do that though :slight_smile: