Group Buy: TERMINATED by Niwalker

quote: “The GB itself was not the issue. It was the final sale price and Niwalker’s assertion that I was violating their MAP by offering a final sale price that was too low.”

This is the meat of the matter guys. Remember doingoutdoor, fasttech and now e2fieldgear……

Coupon codes are all over the place. Cellguy’s point about it is correct.

While I’m glad to see that there’s an obvious effort being made to straighten out what seems to have been, more or less, miscommunication I do understand the frustration on some of the folks part. I am not in favor of MAP. Different dealers have different overhead issues, different needs. So it would stand to reason that one dealer may be able to offer a better price as he has less involved in stocking the product. That’s business.

As far as the language used earlier today, it’s my understanding that the use of profanity is one of few ways to get banned on this forum. As this is all an open forum, family oriented, it should be fairly black and white. The people willing to blatantly break the simple rules of the forum don’t belong here. Let your anger get the best of you, and be gone. My son loves lights too. He likes the pictures he sees here. He’s 6 and doing a great job reading, on a 3rd grade or higher level. Goes without saying that I don’t feel I should have to explain to my child what a word or a gesture seen on this forum means, and why he shouldn’t use it.

I would not use the type approach we witness earlier, but then I have a business to run as well. Matters not one whit whether morning coffee has been had or not. I suspect there will be some repurcussions to some of todays conversation.

For me, the product itself does not swing me over to Niwalker. Even if modified, some of my major issues with the style and interface are still there. So it’s not the light for me. Decent looking light, nice anodization, I personally don’t like magnetic rings. In heavy use, in my opinion, those rings can get jammed and make the light inoperable. Not an option. Like so many other things, it’s difficult to get all of one’s personal likes in the same product, lol. That’s what makes this all so interesting, is it not? :slight_smile:

+1

And why I'm glad my comments have been "saved"... hopefully they make it to whomever is in charge over at Niwalker, and they take note.

In general I prefer to be extremely civil, however there are times when only the harshest response possible will garner any reaction. (It's pretty hard to lose the meaning of that word in translation, or misconstrue it's use as anything but an insult.)

Had the response been milder, would anyone pay attention? Or would they write it off as another "oh well, that's too bad they have MAP" situation and move on?

Now Niwalker is here trying to save face. They are paying attention to what's going on, to people's reactions, and hopefully realize they didn't only make themselves look bad but also their dealers by association. Not good for a new brand starting out.

hmm… i never even heard about Niwalker lights before…just heard it from this GB, i was about to check it when i realized, there’s really nothing special about the light.
it’s just another variation of TN30 or TK75… but with TK75 XML2 U2 selling for $161 at WB… why even bother to buy unknown light? …just my $.02

thanks for saving my money :expressionless:

Just saw this thread for the first time today. I have the MT-G2 and XM-L2 versions of the Vostro’s. I actually have the XM-L2 version in transit to Tom E right now for him to mod the hell out of it to see if it can beat the TN31. It sucks that Niwalker has burned their bridges and left scorched earth behind because I genuinely think the BK-FA01 is a better light than the TN31, which I also own.

In regards to the harsh language: I have no problem with it. People here are very passionate about their hobby and expect good customer service. If you feel like you need to tell somebody to have a violent sexual liaison with themselves to convey your feelings, I encourage it.

Niwalker?

Never heard of ’em.

Me too. Sleepwalker, I know. hahaha

Here’s a P word to add to your recordings . . Your approach and story is a load of pooh (and I don’t mean Winnie) … After you sell a light, your deal is done. You don’t need to be informed - you just need to be honorable to sell to the dealer at the price and written contract terms when you committed. The person who then owns the light sets their price since it become their property to sell. And how does one of your dealers have the right to decide what their competitor is doing? Who the H@LL is that? You already got your money and neither you or the other dealer have the right to tell someone what they can sell a light for unless it is on a mutually agreed contract.

I and many others now won’t buy your product - PERIOD. End of sentence and end of your ability to sell us copies of lights. That the P word you should be aware of.

i only know daywalker :stuck_out_tongue:

No way he/she’s going to reveal the vendor…

Not after all this hate.

Integrity is the matter at hand.
If we stand by and allow this behaviour to continue unabated and without recourse, they will see it as acceptable and degenerate further and further until we do jack up over it.

I for one, will NOT stand for such underhanded, unsavoury, discriminatory, defamatory and dishonest behaviour and rather take a moral stand at my personal expense to demonstrate this.

I would like to know also…
Is there a list of their official dealers somewhere?

One question, how do you plan to fix this in a positive manner, that establishes a bond of trust between the distributor, the customers and yourself ?

Another question, if Cellguy provided his website for reference, how come it was missed he is an authorised distributor ?

Perfect example being M@gl!te being dragged into the 21st century and forced to use LED’s to stay relevant in the market.
By what percent of their market share they lost by dragging their feet would be intriguing to view.

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Too little too late for me.

I can’t be bothered with companies that conduct their business like this. IMO once they have their money that’s it for them, whoever has paid them can do what they like with the items.

Has made my decision easier that’s for sure. Its not like there is many good MT-G2 lights out there so this is just another one I can strike off the “potential” list.

+1 I’m not going to get upset and rant but there is too much competition out there to give my money to a manufacturer like this. I can’t buy every single interesting light and they just freed up cash for something else on the list. I already have an Eagletac SX25L3 with the MTG2 emitter. It is a great light and it can be found for a good deal in many places. I know the Niwalker has a much larger reflector and I was really looking forward to comparing the two but hey…there are plenty of fish in the sea! :slight_smile:

I also wanted to add…I have dealt with E2 Fieldgear a few times. I always found their prices and service to be excellent. Thanks Cellguy, for trying to make this happen. It would’ve been nice, and we appreciate your efforts.

Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) Policies are Designed to Benefit Dealers - Not Consumers

Minimum advertised pricing is a method upon which manufacturers dictate to retailers the price which must be advertised for a given product. Many times, this advertising is restrictive to the point of ensuring the consumer pays too much for a given product. (Also note, Minimum Resale Price (MRP) policies are a close cousin to MAP policies. The difference is that MRP policies dictate the minimum price at which an item can be sold vs. advertised.

*Myth: MAP Policies are Good for Consumers
Fact: MAP Policies are Bad for Consumers Due to Potentially Higher Prices*
Minimum advertised pricing (MAP) often causes consumers to pay higher prices than if MAP did not exist. This is often times due to restrictions in place where a customer has to take additional steps such as calling a retailer to determine the best possible price. If the consumer doesn’t know they need to call, they may end up paying more than necessary for an item.

*Myth: MAP Levels the Playing Field
Fact: MAP Supports Inefficient Businesses*
Minimum advertised pricing (MAP) is often referred to as a mechanism to level the playing field between competitors. This is nonsense. Inefficient business models shouldn’t be rewarded for the unwillingness to change with the times and become leaner organizations.

*Myth: Manufacturers Always Disclose Their Policies
Fact: Some Manufacturers Want to Keep Policies a Secret*
While many manufacturers do in fact disclose their policies, others are much more restrictive. They may restrict a retailer from disclosing that such an anti-consumer policy is in place. If you’re going to have a Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) policy then own it and disclose it. We can disagree on opinions as to the merits of MAP, but “hiding” it makes me lose respect for you.

*Myth: Dealers “Win” by Making More Money with MAP Policies
Fact: Dealers “Lose” When they Don’t Serve Their Customers Interests*
Dealers win the trust of their customers by always providing them with the lowest possible price for a product, not by overcharging them.

*Myth: MAP Policies Are Enforced Both On and Offline
Fact: Many MAP Policies Are Often Only Enforced Against Online Advertising*
Most manufacturers only enforce their MAP policies against online advertising - print, in-store and other mediums are either ignored or exempted from the rules. There are exceptions, but those are far and few between. If we’re talking about fairness and equality in “leveling the playing field” as some manufacturers claim, then they’re failing miserably at this goal. Instead, they’re putting internet dealers at a distinct disadvantage putting handcuffs on their operations while others can wheel and deal freely.

Why are Manufacturers enforcing M.A.P.s ??
Manufacturers are mainly trying to “protect” traditional distribution channels, claiming that they do provide support and service.
Manufacturers want to make sure that dealers with higher overhead costs can make money at selling their products and stay in business. But after all, who hasn’t visited a store to “kick the tires” and then rushed online to save money ??

Do M.A.P.s benefit the Consumer ??
MAPs can sometimes be justified for a complex and technical product.
They are harder to justify when you buy an MP3 player, a camera lens, or a flashlight.
In most instances, it results in higher prices for the consumer with no or little added benefits.

Are M.A.P.s legal ??
Many people believe MAPS are anti-competitive and a restriction of trade. They used to be illegal in the U.S. for these very same reasons. Since 2008, however, they are, unfortunately, legal .

In a previous life, I worked within an industry which fell under the scrutiny of European Union competition law which,as far as I recall,generally prohibits MAP. BUT,exemptions exist in circumstances where a franchise agreement is in place (in accordance with the usual myriad of “subject to…”s drawn up by and only understood by the Brussels lawyers) and of course the manufacturers exert both distribution and price control through these arrangements.

The bottom line? MAP is outlawed in the EU but… you can get round it!

s. I had never before heard of Niwalker. I have now and I don’t think they will be on the Christmas wish list

Hi everyone,

I understand the frustration here, and I respect your rights to voice your opinion about the manufacturer in question. However, the BLF Rules about profanity and rudeness do still apply, even in irritating or negative situations. Please respect these rules at all times, as they will contribute to a much more enjoyable environment for everyone around here.

I tried to remove all occurrences of profanity in this thread, but please PM me if I missed any.

Also, thanks to the majority of the posters here who did watch their language despite their frustration.

Thanks a lot, have fun!