Reflector vs Aspherical flashlights (thought only)

Something really bothers me with people and flashlight manufacturers.

I seen here and on other forums that people often abusing all kind of aspheric flashlights calling them:

- pencil beam

- ugly beam with no useful side spill :slight_smile:

  • no real life use

And most of people(80%) are big fans of reflector flashlights although most of reflector flashlights are big, fat monsters that can not fit into jacket pocket.

Most seen arguments for reflector flashlights are:

- Very useful side spill?

- Very nice beam pattern (white wall).

- No matter for big size reflector and diameter of flashlights they are really cool flashlights

  • Lumen pumping

I think the main developing ideas of flashlight experts should be based on aspherical type of flashlights with as smaller size as possible. Why? Because of proven facts that;

- Aspeherical flashlight of same size will always out throw same size reflector flashlight(greater cd/lux performance in same size). Greater lux/cd performece can bring greater adjustable hotspot(which imho is the most important part of the beam)

- They are a lot stealthier. You can light between 2 object without anyone notice you.

- Pocket-able size

- Hotspot flood to throw versatile beam pattern

  • Hotspot type of the beam. You see further in the night with this type of flashlights. How?

*When you turn on reflector LED light, your night vision is killed by spill light that is reflecting from nearby objects & environment. Your pupil of the eye narrows and you see less. The brighter the environment is, the narrower is the pupil of the eye, so there’s a reduction in light that hits the fundus. Aspherical type of beam has sharp borders, so there is better contrast between illuminated area and dark area. The enhanced contrast lets you to perceive objects/persons/things better.

USEFUL SIDE SPILL IN REFLECTOR FLASHLIGHTS?

- Spill messes with your night vision. Your pupil of the eye narrows and you see less.

- You are spooking and give away your position to anyone around such light(yourself, other people, animals)

- In summer days you are attracting more bugs to your position

  • There is no possibility of beam adjustment

I think real future is in ass small as possible aspherical flashlights providing extreme flood to throw (lux/cd performance). I know that I am probably in only 10% of population that shares similar opinion but probably future will bring flashlight creations more similar to this idea

So manufacturers should invent small flashlights with incredible flood to throw intensity (LED technology should be improved, or maybe replace LED with LASER technology), and not only depend on big fat reflectors, big battery housings and CREE LED technology to improve night vision.

Manufacturers in these days can only develop external flashlight appearance, and their flashlight performance is based on CREE engineer experts and newest leds. There is no creative ideas in their lab.

Do you want to carry fat flashlight around your neck? I know that I don’t want that kind of “improvement”. Give me small flashlight that can make night into day instead of pumping 100 000 of different flashlights designs which depends on big father CREE.

"I think real future is in ass . . ."

The present is already all about that. People are either hauling, kicking, kissing, slapping, etc it.

Seriously though. Aspherics have their place. I especially like them on a boat and working in tight complicated compartments (like under cars). But for general walking around outside, I need good spill with a more intense center.

Yes, I would love to see some good quality pencil beam lights. :slight_smile:

What a lot of words just to say
“I prefer zoomies”
But just a couple of comments, Cree do not design led’s for flashlight use and you will never get a small light to light up the night, well not until light developement advances a lonnnng way.
Please remember that what you said is your opinion, my opinion of zoomies differs from yours and you will not change my mind, not even by using so much bold text to try to force your opinion upon others.

In the immortal words of Shaggy “Take a chill pill man”

Cheers David

This ^

You don't like "big daddy Cree"? Without them we'd all be living with 5 year old tech posting on CPF and singing the praises of 150 lumen Osram and Luxeon lights. Flashlights wouldn't be what they are today if not for Cree constantly pushing the envelope with ever better emitters. Your small zoomie lights will never throw as well as the reflectored lights. The aspheric lights that do compete are massive with huge, thick lenses as wide as the reflectored lights they compete with and far heavier. I liked zoomies too when I got into flashlights until I got a real nice reflectored light. Now I never touch the zoomies.

While zoomies do serve a purpose, I prefer reflector lights.

I live in an area without street lights and I need the spill to see where to put my feet while using the hot spot to plan where I'm going to walk to.

An aspheric is inefficient and wastes lots of light, but a reflector or TIR give more OTF lumens.

I've built several lights with reflectors that can light up a fence at 350 metres, and they are all reflectors, and the spill doesn't hurt my night vision.

The only zooming lights I've heard of that are efficient are Led Lensers or POP Lites, the ones that use a TIR variant but can't handle high power LEDs because they mount the LED on a post.

My favorite home-build is a P60 mod’d to put the XM-L right behind a 28mm aspheric.
I dare say, the best flooder I could build but no longer zooms.
I can walk around outside with it, and I can light up small spaces without sacrificing “night vision”.

However, I have some favorite throwers too. They are more for spotting skunks at a “safe” distance.

My main EDC light is a zoomie, and my other one is a reflector. My last mod project was a reflector, my next one is a zoomie. I guess I haven’t figured out which one is better. :slight_smile:

There is no 'better', just more or less appropriate solutions to yield a desired result in a given situation. Situations vary, individual users desires vary. It's great to have a wide array of solutions available to meet each user's situation and preference.

I like both Reflectors and Zooming Aspherics, as long as the Aspheric has a good usable flood mode along with the spot mode. a good Zoomie is great for trail walking or a head lamp work light with the smooth hotspot-less flood.
I’m not a fan of unusable shelf-queen lights. Sure lights like the Deft-X is great for the “awe” moment to see how far a spot can be thrown, and great for achieving a high KCD number, but in the field its practically useless for anything else except illuminating a small object far in the distance with its throwpencil-beam only locked focus. for trail walking or any other uses its impractical and even unusable.
I have a few modded Zoomies i have that i like and use on walks, camping trips, etc. but they are modded with floody XM-Ls and i end up using the zoom mode most of the time.
There is one light zoomie design i like better for useable throw that still has a good spill, and also has a great wide spotless flood is the lights that have a lens that looks like a modded TIR optic with the emitter on a centeral “post”, as some of the LED Lenser lights, have but the best beam pattern even better than the lensers is the one used in a Defiant XP-G2 Zoomie, particularly this one: New Defiant Zoomie with XP-G2 !

+1 Gj’ and DenB’s comment above.

It is great to have a variety of options available for different purposes. Our own use centres around hunting/outdoors for which we need powerful lumen output, a long range hotspot, but also good flood to scan fields quickly.

Three years ago we used aspheric lights alot more to get long distance, but the arrival of XML leds proved a complete game changer. Their stonking lumen output in a bigger head design gave us all we need in a light, and refining the bigger reflectors has given us huge lux/distance plus good flood. So for our own purposes the new XML2-U2s etc have completely taken over for from aspherics - alot more practical beam for all purpose outdoor use.

But - I still occasionally use smaller aspherics for scope mounted lights - eg Small Sun C10, and I really like the practicality of a small zoomie for home use. One of my favourite lights - will always have 1-2 is the little X2000 of 2-3 years ago. Super useful as a general purpose home/truck light. Small but versatile.

It’s good to have both options to choose from, and which one is best comes down to the job you need done - and of course personal preference.

I’m a fan of both. In term of throw aspherical flashlight has another advantage - it can be used along with the Wavien Collar, on the other hand that stuff is expensive and how many manufacturers are willing to pay and getting access to that thing?

My current EDC is a zoomie.

Zoomies aren’t perfect. They’re usually much less efficient than reflector lights. But that said, they can do things similar-size reflector lights cant. My modded Aleto N8 zoomie has far more throw than any comparable sized non-zoom light I own. It also has the ability to go into a very wide almost mule-like flood, wider than the spill on most of my reflector lights. It’s a good compromise for a pocket light. And the overall package is smaller than my Zebralight SC62d.

I knew where I will strike by opening this thread. Thread is IMHO spirit but plenty of you are still not getting real point what I am trying to say.

Before I give another opinion I will mention that I have/had/tried/sold probably more reflector flashlights than 70% people on this and other forum so I am not reflector hater. I hate bad attitude to potentially good technology.

I am well aware of today light technology limitations and in which direction are flashlight currently going. If you want massive lumen and lux output only thing that manufacturers can do is production of big fat reflector multiled lights.

So why should developing go in this direction when it can go in opposite? I am talking about lack ideas in this field.

It does not have to be aspheric flashlight neither it has to be reflector one. Neither it has to be LED technology. It can be LASER or anything else but 90% of manufacturers stuck on reflectors.

With today technology it is probably not possible to achieve kind of output and portability as I would like to see in flashlights, and main cause for that is lack of experts creativity, and people light orientation(yes you useful spill guys).

And yes I think(imo) that "useful spill" should be retired and they should create only flood to throw lights with pure and intense hotspot(with far better performance than we have now).

So we are all in flashlight world. What is more useful than pure hotspot? And why not have possibility for full regulation of that hotspot in future design flashlights? I want to hear your thoughts and not just silly wrangle about reflector and useful spill.



[quote=JohnnyMac]



There are no real idea to push zoomies forward. And guys like you that are stuck on reflectors are main cause for that.

I have to correct you and tell real trough: "My small zoomies" will always out throw your(and anybody) same size reflector lights.

My best zoomie has 50mm diameter lenses, weight 250gr. and almost 300(kcd) with 80 kcd in full flood mode.

Same size reflector can not beat lux performance of same size aspheric that is proven fact.

But as I said massive lux performance and massive flood performance could be done in a small package but 90% of manufacturers are not spending their time in developing such lights.

Here are my arguments why manufacturers and people should pay more attention on Zoomies/Aspherics types of lights:

- You see further and clearer in the night. How? One more time:

This type of beam has sharp borders, so there is better contrast between illuminated area and dark area. The enhanced contrast lets you to perceive it brighter.

When you turn on reflector LED light, your night vision is killed by useful spill that is reflecting from nearby objects, grass, ground, rocks, water(sea, rivers).

Your pupil of the eye narrows and you see less. The brighter the environment is, the narrower is the pupil of the eye, so there's a reduction in light that hits the fundus.

Some experienced hunters(some are here hunting with XML-s and they are very happy using that light :) ) are not aware of environment reflection. Game can see reflection very well and runs... I have personally tested this hundreds of times on different kind of game and in this field there is no better type of beam.

And I would like to see hunter that will give opposite comment than mine and arguments for that kind of comments.

- Size and Portability (put them into pocket and forget that you carry them).

I have to mention that same size aspheric will always have better lux/kcd performance than same size reflector flashlight.

- They preserve your night vision

- They are much stealthier because there is no useful spill which will alert whole neighborhood or spook game.

Only limitation is lumen output(hotspot size) which I would like to see improved in future flashlight builds.

I am here to defend zoomies/aspherics and I gave few arguments why should flashlight development go in their way and not on reflector, and I would really like to see opposite comments and arguments.

The only point I feel strongly enough to argue is your mention of lasers. Lasers are not flashlights. They can cause serious eye damage to humans and animals and are not suitable for general use as flashlights.

Aspherical lens system is good, but it’s not a perfect system, and same goes to the reflectored lights.

The maximum lumens output limitation is one of the downsides of an aspherical flashlight.

And another one, which is quite important to some people, is the significant tint shift caused by the nature of the lens focusing. You may defend that the tint shift can be negligible at outdoor, but we do use them indoor too.

That said, if the manufacturers are willing to spend more money and time on aspherical lens R&D all the above problems may be solved. Both reflectored and aspherical flashlights have pros and cons, yet there are only so few of the manufacturers making aspherical flashlights, and this is the only thing I cannot understand.

I totally agree with each of these arguments, except the one about xml’s, I have an xml aspheric and it
’s fantastic light.

The whole part about the beam being discreet with sharp cutoff is what i love best about it. Certainly optimal for preserving night vision and perceived brightness.

Also I think a unique perspective on the difference between aspheric vs reflector throwers, is being on the receiving end of the beam from a distance. It’s quite a sensation of being laser targetted like “whoa where did that beam of light come from, it’s source is concealed by darkness, yet I am lit up light a xmas tree, and nothing else around me is”. :smiley:

The beam (200+ metres required) to find the direction to walk in, the spill to see up the ground to walk on while keeping track of the direction with the beam.

The only two uses I can see for a spot beam only are night hunting and WOWing novices.

And the spill has LESS effect on my night vision than the spot.

I was supposed to just watch and eat popcorn. But might as well join while enjoying the show.

luminarium iaculator I think many understand what your are trying to say. At least to some extend. But to me it does not seem that you are capable of understanding what the typical flashlight user uses their lights for.

Although I dont understand if you are trying to start a discussion about future technology that could make aspherical lights better, or just try and promote them. I guess its both..

Lasers can be the future for flashlight. Could be nicely suitable for ashperics if done correctly. As an example BMW use laser technology for the headlights in the I8. And those headlights are awesome based on what I have seen. I made a thread about it a long time ago.

What more than hunting do you find aspherical lights useful for. Please make a long list in what circumstances these lights excel in. I know of several, but would be interesting to see from your point of view.

Pencil beam is a suitable description. People easily understand it. Hence it works nicely. Its common to use special phrases (that may not sound that nice) to describe various lights.

Here is a couple of reasons why aspheric lights are not that popular.

Generally extremly inefficient optics. Especially when "zoomed in".

For many, unpleasent beam due to square dies when fully zoomed in.

Flood mode is not good for general outdoor use. Its just one big even ring. This means that right in front of your feet you got a ton more light than a couple of meters in front of you. Basically same argument you use against spill on reflector lights. Your pupils retracts. Which does not help when the beam is already bad for looking at stuff that is 20 meters in front of you.

If you want to see what is in front of you when walking, you need to use flood mode. But then you don't see much ahead. And many actually needs to see what is in front of them.

Worse thermal design compared to reflector lights. Usually because the head have to able to move you end up with worse thermal path.

Often unplesent rings in the zoom ring.

Expensive to make good aspheric glass lenses.


Led-Lenser

Led-Lenser have patent on the good apsherics. Probalby not good for OP, but their design is attractive for many. To some degree I like LED-Lenser, I have used their low-end, mid-end and high end lights. I wont buy any of their lights myself though.

Market force

People vote with their money. Flashoholics have started with a zoom light, or had a zoom lights as one of their first lights. Most flashoholics end up buying reflector lights. If aspherics were better for most, more people would buy them, and manufacturers would put in more effort in improving the lights. IMO, its actually easier to sell a zoom light to a non-flashoholic. Zoom is a great selling point. People love it. Until you show someone a good reflector light side by side. Its a reason why reflector lights are popular. Its because people in general find them more useful and overall better.


TIR

10-degree TIR optics or narrower + de-domed emitter have very good throw for the size as well. And many will prefer to have some spill and the better efficiency and nicer beam compared to aspherics.

Aspherics-zoom- Jack of all trades, master at none?

Some use the expression above. "jack of all trades, master of none". I do not agree. I think aspheric lights are master of pencil beam throw in a small package. But otherwise they are bad at most things.

I like my SK68 with WW Nichia, but only in flood mode, indoors. I have some aspherics with de-domed emitters, but I have no actual use for them compared to a ton of my reflector lights. I could see scenarios where they are nice, but in those scenarios I usually have a better non aspheric light for the job.

Another issue is, if you put an XM-L in one, it sucks as a thrower, but its "good" as a flooder. When I say good, I mean big wide and bright flood. If you put a de-domed XP-G2 or something like that in one, it becomes really bad as a flooder (usually not that wide flood, and not that bright either). Compare it with a floody light, and you will better understand why its bad as a flooder.

Aspheric lights do have a purpose.

No doubt. I can see why they are useful, and its a reason why I would have 1 of them if I could only have 20 lights or so. :D

Ive actually defended aspheric lights in some discussions, but in general. Reflector light is the way to go for me and my type of use. Which in most cases involves me walking outdoors and having the need to see where im putting my feet. Hence, spill is useful and a must. Having a larger spot, and spill also makes it considerably easier to see what I want, and find what I want, even far away in the distance. I can also use far less power, and yet see far away due to the much better efficiency.

Ill end this long post with an unfair comparison (it was the pictures that I had):

Aspheric vs reflector thrower. Yes, the aspheric is smaller, but both of these lights cost 20$ on sale before I modded them. Still, its only lighting up a fraction of the area, and in this case. The reflector light also outthrows it by good margin. Now, you might say, that is because its using 10 times the energy, but actually, the reflector light is only using around twice the energy in the picture below and it would still be really impressive if it used half the power.

Im not saying one is better than the other.. As a flashoholic, Ill say there is a place and use for all types of lights.