Carclo not going to make triple XP-L optics (possible group buy for custom TIR)

64 posts / 0 new
Last post

Pages

Turby3Pots
Turby3Pots's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 11 hours ago
Joined: 03/31/2013 - 20:51
Posts: 604
Location: Richmond va USA
Carclo not going to make triple XP-L optics (possible group buy for custom TIR)

edit 8/3: they want $15-30k to design us a new optic; old optics can be had for $.45 approximately with a 40 pcs group buy.

I decided to contact carclo directly to find out if the XP-L triple s3 is going to become possible.

Quote:

The current 10507 lens will be close to fitting the XP-L, but I feel that you may experience interference issues because of the XP-L’s height.

 

Unfortunately I am not aware of any developments for a new 3up optic. I can bring up the possibility of making a standard, but as of now we haven’t seen the demand with this optic to do so. Depending on your volume needed and budget, one possibility is a small custom mold to create a new optic for your application.

 

Thanks,

 

Caleb Karasack

Optical Design Engineer

 

Carclo Technical Plastics

Edited by: Turby3Pots on 08/06/2014 - 12:18
wight
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 8 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

No surprise. Nobody has been able to propose a commercial application for a XP-L triple.

I’m perfectly willing to let this simmer for a while.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

aoeu
aoeu's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 02/16/2014 - 04:44
Posts: 796
Location: Sydney, Australia

Does it need much mod to fit?

Hikelite
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 3 weeks ago
Joined: 07/13/2011 - 16:18
Posts: 3999
Location: Honeyland

aoeu wrote:
Does it need much mod to fit?

Dedome the LEDs and will fit?

Werner
Werner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
Joined: 10/19/2012 - 15:00
Posts: 3679
Location: Germany

ASk them what they mean with “volume needed”….
If they would make a customs Run with 100 or so it is possible in a groupbuy.

Ouchyfoot
Ouchyfoot's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 9 months ago
Joined: 09/01/2012 - 06:15
Posts: 5089
Location: Canada

Hikelite wrote:

aoeu wrote:
Does it need much mod to fit?

Dedome the LEDs and will fit?


If you have to de-dome it, why not just use dedome XM-L2. The dies are the same.
comfychair
comfychair's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 05:39
Posts: 6198

I think if you are looking for anything that even remotely resembles a flashlight-like beam, XP-Ls in a 10mm triple TIR is going to leave you awfully disappointed. It would only be acceptable if you want something that works about like a mule light with nothing at all in front of the LEDs. Some people do like that sort of thing but they're weird and thankfully few in number.

comfychair
comfychair's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 05:39
Posts: 6198

Ouchyfoot wrote:
Hikelite wrote:

aoeu wrote:
Does it need much mod to fit?

Dedome the LEDs and will fit?

If you have to de-dome it, why not just use dedome XM-L2. The dies are the same.

Because there aren't any direct copper 3-up MCPCBs that will fit both XMLs and the 20mm 3-up TIRs.

Cereal_killer
Cereal_killer's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: 07/22/2013 - 13:10
Posts: 4005
Location: Ohio

I have tons of extra triple optics I would be willing to start experimenting on seeing what options we have to mod them (with the XP-L dome ON) but I don’t have an extra triple MCPCB.

More of us should start emailing carlco and possible show them this (and the other XP-L) threads here, show them there is interest. Plastic injection molds are not cheap to design / produce so even tho the individual lenses can be produced for a few ¢ each its a major investment for them to design totally new optics, we need to show them there is demand.

OP you should post the email of the person you spoke with so we can also contact the same guy.

 RIP  SPC Joey Riley, KIA 11/24/14. Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

comfychair
comfychair's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 05:39
Posts: 6198

How well does a MTG2 work in a 17-18mm reflector? Ever tried that? The size ratios there are about the same as XP-L in a 10mm TIR lens.

I think the reason there's no commercial demand for such a thing is because it wouldn't work very well.

Turby3Pots
Turby3Pots's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 11 hours ago
Joined: 03/31/2013 - 20:51
Posts: 604
Location: Richmond va USA

Cereal_killer wrote:
I have tons of extra triple optics I would be willing to start experimenting on seeing what options we have to mod them (with the XP-L dome ON) but I don’t have an extra triple MCPCB.

More of us should start emailing carlco and possible show them this (and the other XP-L) threads here, show them there is interest. Plastic injection molds are not cheap to design / produce so even tho the individual lenses can be produced for a few ¢ each its a major investment for them to design totally new optics, we need to show them there is demand.

OP you should post the email of the person you spoke with so we can also contact the same guy.

Caleb.Karasack@carclo-usa.com

WarHawk-AVG
WarHawk-AVG's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 6 months ago
Joined: 01/04/2014 - 06:47
Posts: 5071
Location: H-Town

Instead of a full dedome CK, try shaving the dome off with a razor, just “shorten” it and see if that affects the light transmission any

Perhaps many requests for a triple XP-L in their emails might make them up the ante at developing one Wink

Remember, the squeeky wheel gets the grease

will manners
will manners's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: 05/07/2014 - 05:00
Posts: 357
Location: NSW, Australia
comfychair wrote:

I think if you are looking for anything that even remotely resembles a flashlight-like beam, XP-Ls in a 10mm triple TIR is going to leave you awfully disappointed. It would only be acceptable if you want something that works about like a mule light with nothing at all in front of the LEDs. Some people do like that sort of thing but they’re weird and thankfully few in number.

Have you seen dedomed x-pl’s in a 20mm triple TIR in person?

These shots from Dale look nothing like a mule. (triple xpl board with TIR @ 2960 lumens)
The beam offers a very wide spill whilst maintaining a fairly large hotspot. I wouldn’t gravitate towards calling the characteristics of this beamshot as a mule. (Although maybe there is no hotspot but rather the ridiculous amount of lumens coming from this Sinner Cu 18350 light washes out the camera and makes it appear like it has a hotspot?) If the xpl with 20mm TIR offers a mule beam characteristic than I won’t be buying the parts for one. But if they look like Dale’s shots in real life than you can bet your a$$ I’m going to build one J) Wink

grantman321
grantman321's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 10 months ago
Joined: 06/02/2014 - 14:10
Posts: 215
Location: North Carolina

Second that. Currently building my third XP-L triple. I’ve been building them in several EDC-sized lights that used to have 20mm reflectors to see which host handles heat the best (err.. better than the others? None will be ‘great’ since they’re so small).

The beam is nothing like a mule, and is WAY better than an MT-G2 in a 20mm reflector (built one of those too)… Plus, a 3-up XP-L generates a ton less heat with a 3A driver (emitters in parallel) than a zener’d qlite at 3A.

I’m not super disappointed yet about the lack of XP-L triple optics… The 1A tint looks pretty decent dedomed. Also they dedome really well in gas. On all of mine there’s been white silicone left behind only on the bond wires while the clear dome falls off in just about 2-3 hours. Almost like Cree designed them to be dedomed in gas.

But then again, I suppose I’d prefer not to have to dedome and gamble with tint shift and lose some of the output.

“We are all worms, but I believe that I am a glow-worm.” – Winston Churchill

will manners
will manners's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: 05/07/2014 - 05:00
Posts: 357
Location: NSW, Australia

It would certainly be great if carclo did make xpl TIR’s.

As far as lumen loss, djozz excellent graphs seem to indicate that there was extremely minimal
lumen difference between domed and dedomed xpl’s (except in very high current’s, 5 amps+).

Cree XPL V6 2C led test.

Turby3Pots
Turby3Pots's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 11 hours ago
Joined: 03/31/2013 - 20:51
Posts: 604
Location: Richmond va USA

Ok guys update:

He stated that the minimum order for a group buy would be 40 pieces, @ $.45 per optic. Great news! I thought it would be a minimum of maybe 1000 or more. So this is definitely doable.

The problem is he said there may be a problem fitting the optic mechanically.. As if he’s trying to sell me the xpg2 TIR.. I’m waiting for his response on whether it’s a custom built TIR (as he initially mentioned for a group buy) or not.

Werner
Werner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
Joined: 10/19/2012 - 15:00
Posts: 3679
Location: Germany

Sounds good.

comfychair
comfychair's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 05:39
Posts: 6198

will manners wrote:
comfychair wrote:

I think if you are looking for anything that even remotely resembles a flashlight-like beam, XP-Ls in a 10mm triple TIR is going to leave you awfully disappointed. It would only be acceptable if you want something that works about like a mule light with nothing at all in front of the LEDs. Some people do like that sort of thing but they're weird and thankfully few in number.

Have you seen dedomed x-pl's in a 20mm triple TIR in person? These shots from Dale look nothing like a mule. (triple xpl board with TIR @ 2960 lumens) The beam offers a very wide spill whilst maintaining a fairly large hotspot. I wouldn't gravitate towards calling the characteristics of this beamshot as a mule. (Although maybe there is no hotspot but rather the ridiculous amount of lumens coming from this Sinner Cu 18350 light washes out the camera and makes it appear like it has a hotspot?) If the xpl with 20mm TIR offers a mule beam characteristic than I won't be buying the parts for one. But if they look like Dale's shots in real life than you can bet your a$$ I'm going to build one J) ;)

This thread is about a triple TIR that will fit over the XP-L with the domes still on. Beam pattern with dedomed XP-L is about the same as XPG2 with the domes still on. XP-Ls in a 20mm TIR (three 10mm individual lenses) would be extreme flood even with the tightest/narrowest TIR, because of the relationship between the apparent die size (larger with the domes on) and the available size of the TIR lenses.

leaftye
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 6 hours ago
Joined: 07/25/2012 - 17:43
Posts: 4293
Location: San Diego, CA

wdkingery wrote:
Ok guys update: He stated that the minimum order for a group buy would be 40 pieces, @ $.45 per optic. Great news! I thought it would be a minimum of maybe 1000 or more. So this is definitely doable. The problem is he said there may be a problem fitting the optic mechanically.. As if he's trying to sell me the xpg2 TIR.. I'm waiting for his response on whether it's a custom built TIR (as he initially mentioned for a group buy) or not.

If it's actually a custom lens made to fit over the XP-L with domes on, put me down for at least ten, although I'll order more if others don't step up.

The low mode should be lower.

Turby3Pots
Turby3Pots's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 11 hours ago
Joined: 03/31/2013 - 20:51
Posts: 604
Location: Richmond va USA
leaftye wrote:

wdkingery wrote:
Ok guys update: He stated that the minimum order for a group buy would be 40 pieces, @ $.45 per optic. Great news! I thought it would be a minimum of maybe 1000 or more. So this is definitely doable. The problem is he said there may be a problem fitting the optic mechanically.. As if he’s trying to sell me the xpg2 TIR.. I’m waiting for his response on whether it’s a custom built TIR (as he initially mentioned for a group buy) or not.

If it’s actually a custom lens made to fit over the XP-L with domes on, put me down for at least ten, although I’ll order more if others don’t step up.

Yes leaftye, we should have known that Carclo wouldn’t be creating new optics in the range of 40 to 50 cents per piece, with a minimum order of 40 pieces.. or hell RMM would probably buy 100’s of them himself.

If anyone wants the old 10507 for the XP-G2, then the offer stands at 45ish cents per optic, with a minimum group buy of 40 pieces.

But for an optic to fit an XP-L triple:

Quote:
For a custom optic the customer would pay for the tooling as well as piece price. Depending on cavitation and other factors, the tool will cost about $15-30K. Assuming the part is roughly the same size as the standard, cavitation would be the biggest factor in determining piece price.

Caleb Karasack
Optical Design Engineer

Carclo Technical Plastics

:_(
Old-Lumens
Old-Lumens's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 11 months ago
Joined: 11/04/2011 - 11:39
Posts: 7478
Location: Tyler, TX, USA

comfychair wrote:

I think if you are looking for anything that even remotely resembles a flashlight-like beam, XP-Ls in a 10mm triple TIR is going to leave you awfully disappointed. It would only be acceptable if you want something that works about like a mule light with nothing at all in front of the LEDs. Some people do like that sort of thing but they're weird and thankfully few in number.

Thank you! There are more of us than you think...

My PayPal address: oldlumens (insert the @ sign here) gmail.com

My YouTube Flashlight Video Channel

The BLF Modding Links Thread 

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/1374/jQ2wdL.jpg

 

Old-Lumens
Old-Lumens's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 11 months ago
Joined: 11/04/2011 - 11:39
Posts: 7478
Location: Tyler, TX, USA

All they should really have to do is to make the center holes larger in diameter at the bottom and re adjust the taper. It should still be a "10 degree" optic, with a larger center hole. The beam should be comparable to an XP-G triple. The larger die size does not cause a 10 degree optic to be anything other than 10 degree. The optic directs the light. The biggest problem will be fitting it all into the standard 20mm diameter of those triples. The way the TIR spreads out the light is done in the taper of the center hole, towards the top. The 20mm optics I have for XM-L have a large hole at the bottom, to accommodate the led and they taper considerably, to make it 10 degree. The 45 degree ones have an almost straight hole, with no taper. 10 degree can be done in the 20mm three-up, it's just the high cost of making a die. Well, actually, they only have to make the inserts, as the die bases are standardized, so the cost is probably in the couple thousand dollar range for just the inserts. They can just change inserts for one cavity in the die and save themselves lots, by making them in a standard run and sorting the cavity out after. I would be surprised if they only want a small run, even with those costs.

My PayPal address: oldlumens (insert the @ sign here) gmail.com

My YouTube Flashlight Video Channel

The BLF Modding Links Thread 

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/1374/jQ2wdL.jpg

 

grantman321
grantman321's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 10 months ago
Joined: 06/02/2014 - 14:10
Posts: 215
Location: North Carolina

ditto — except I think I’d take 10 even if they’re just plain ol’ Carlco 10507’s at that price. But especially if they’ll fit XP-L’s with the domes on. I’m eager to see what that might look like, even if it’s a super floody beam. I like the beam pattern with them dedomed a whole lot… hopefully it wouldn’t be too drastically different.

“We are all worms, but I believe that I am a glow-worm.” – Winston Churchill

comfychair
comfychair's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 05:39
Posts: 6198

So why do LEDs with different die sizes give different beam angles with the same TIR? Same goes for the same LED with dome on and with dome removed in the same TIR. The beam angle changes dramatically.

The 10mm lenses in the 20mm TIRs are so small, enlarging the bottom hole enough to fit over a XML-size dome would also remove a lot of the lower section of the cone, there's just not enough cross section down there. Another way to put it, the OD of the dome is larger than the OD of the bottom section of the lens where the dome needs to go.

comfychair
comfychair's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 05:39
Posts: 6198

http://75.65.123.78/Dsc08561.jpg

http://75.65.123.78/Dsc08561-2.jpg

Enlarging the hole would mean the part below the horizontal line would no longer exist.

Turby3Pots
Turby3Pots's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 11 hours ago
Joined: 03/31/2013 - 20:51
Posts: 604
Location: Richmond va USA

Below?

comfychair
comfychair's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 05:39
Posts: 6198

The part of the TIR below the horizontal line. To make it do otherwise would require two objects occupying the same space at the same time and I don't think our technology has progressed to that point yet.

Turby3Pots
Turby3Pots's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 11 hours ago
Joined: 03/31/2013 - 20:51
Posts: 604
Location: Richmond va USA

Gosh that’s little to nothing.

Are you saying you can shave part of the TIR bottom off and remove the need to dedome an XP-L to fit under an xpg2 TIR?

comfychair
comfychair's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 05:39
Posts: 6198

That's a huge amount to remove on such a tiny lens. I've cut and chopped and mutilated lots of these things, and doing that would severely alter the beam. I've experimented with both shortening the legs and extending them and shaving that bottom part of the cone to let the lens sit lower. It doesn't work. Some things you can do to them with little effect and some things destroy them. Messing with any part of it down around the LED opening is one of the things that destroys them.

Old-Lumens
Old-Lumens's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 11 months ago
Joined: 11/04/2011 - 11:39
Posts: 7478
Location: Tyler, TX, USA

I think that de-doming a led, allows a lot of light to get out from under the center hole. Those three ups sit up off the die face a little. That light gets out around the outside of the cone, especially on a three up, where there is some thin areas between the three cones. It has to go out and it's not focused, so it makes for a much larger beam. Same with a bigger die. The hole has to be sized for the die, so that the majority of the light goes up and out that center. Light is still going to get out around it and with a small hole and big die, you get a much less pronunced spot.

If you shorten a TIR at the bottom and sit it down on the die face, the beam starts looking more like an aspheric that is partly focused. So the depth of the center hole and the taper, plus the diameter, in relation to the die size, all have an effect, but I still think they could make a 20mm three-up, using a larger hole and steeper cone, so that the overall diameter stays within 20mm.

It's just my thoughts, but not based on anything more than playing around with TIR optics for a while. I maybe all wet. Been there before, will be again.

My PayPal address: oldlumens (insert the @ sign here) gmail.com

My YouTube Flashlight Video Channel

The BLF Modding Links Thread 

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/1374/jQ2wdL.jpg

 

comfychair
comfychair's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 05:39
Posts: 6198

All the the Carclo 3-up parts except the 10507 have an inverted dome that nearly touches the XP-size dome, only the 10507 has a flat roof above the LED.

http://75.65.123.78/tir.jpg

So I'm guessing why they specifically mentioned the 10507 in their reply. But I still think enlarging the hole would ruin the beam, even worse than the huge die & huge dome on the XP-L.

Pages