Reflector vs Aspherical flashlights (thought only)

LED Flashlights – General Info
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I was supposed to just watch and eat popcorn. But might as well join while enjoying the show.

luminarium iaculator I think many understand what your are trying to say. At least to some extend. But to me it does not seem that you are capable of understanding what the typical flashlight user uses their lights for.

Although I dont understand if you are trying to start a discussion about future technology that could make aspherical lights better, or just try and promote them. I guess its both..

Lasers can be the future for flashlight. Could be nicely suitable for ashperics if done correctly. As an example BMW use laser technology for the headlights in the I8. And those headlights are awesome based on what I have seen. I made a thread about it a long time ago.

What more than hunting do you find aspherical lights useful for. Please make a long list in what circumstances these lights excel in. I know of several, but would be interesting to see from your point of view.

Pencil beam is a suitable description. People easily understand it. Hence it works nicely. Its common to use special phrases (that may not sound that nice) to describe various lights.

Here is a couple of reasons why aspheric lights are not that popular.

Generally extremly inefficient optics. Especially when "zoomed in".

For many, unpleasent beam due to square dies when fully zoomed in.

Flood mode is not good for general outdoor use. Its just one big even ring. This means that right in front of your feet you got a ton more light than a couple of meters in front of you. Basically same argument you use against spill on reflector lights. Your pupils retracts. Which does not help when the beam is already bad for looking at stuff that is 20 meters in front of you.

If you want to see what is in front of you when walking, you need to use flood mode. But then you don't see much ahead. And many actually needs to see what is in front of them.

Worse thermal design compared to reflector lights. Usually because the head have to able to move you end up with worse thermal path.

Often unplesent rings in the zoom ring.

Expensive to make good aspheric glass lenses.


Led-Lenser

Led-Lenser have patent on the good apsherics. Probalby not good for OP, but their design is attractive for many. To some degree I like LED-Lenser, I have used their low-end, mid-end and high end lights. I wont buy any of their lights myself though.

Market force

People vote with their money. Flashoholics have started with a zoom light, or had a zoom lights as one of their first lights. Most flashoholics end up buying reflector lights. If aspherics were better for most, more people would buy them, and manufacturers would put in more effort in improving the lights. IMO, its actually easier to sell a zoom light to a non-flashoholic. Zoom is a great selling point. People love it. Until you show someone a good reflector light side by side. Its a reason why reflector lights are popular. Its because people in general find them more useful and overall better.


TIR

10-degree TIR optics or narrower + de-domed emitter have very good throw for the size as well. And many will prefer to have some spill and the better efficiency and nicer beam compared to aspherics.

Aspherics-zoom- Jack of all trades, master at none?

Some use the expression above. "jack of all trades, master of none". I do not agree. I think aspheric lights are master of pencil beam throw in a small package. But otherwise they are bad at most things.

I like my SK68 with WW Nichia, but only in flood mode, indoors. I have some aspherics with de-domed emitters, but I have no actual use for them compared to a ton of my reflector lights. I could see scenarios where they are nice, but in those scenarios I usually have a better non aspheric light for the job.

Another issue is, if you put an XM-L in one, it sucks as a thrower, but its "good" as a flooder. When I say good, I mean big wide and bright flood. If you put a de-domed XP-G2 or something like that in one, it becomes really bad as a flooder (usually not that wide flood, and not that bright either). Compare it with a floody light, and you will better understand why its bad as a flooder.

Aspheric lights do have a purpose.

No doubt. I can see why they are useful, and its a reason why I would have 1 of them if I could only have 20 lights or so. :D

Ive actually defended aspheric lights in some discussions, but in general. Reflector light is the way to go for me and my type of use. Which in most cases involves me walking outdoors and having the need to see where im putting my feet. Hence, spill is useful and a must. Having a larger spot, and spill also makes it considerably easier to see what I want, and find what I want, even far away in the distance. I can also use far less power, and yet see far away due to the much better efficiency.

Ill end this long post with an unfair comparison (it was the pictures that I had):

Aspheric vs reflector thrower. Yes, the aspheric is smaller, but both of these lights cost 20$ on sale before I modded them. Still, its only lighting up a fraction of the area, and in this case. The reflector light also outthrows it by good margin. Now, you might say, that is because its using 10 times the energy, but actually, the reflector light is only using around twice the energy in the picture below and it would still be really impressive if it used half the power.

Im not saying one is better than the other.. As a flashoholic, Ill say there is a place and use for all types of lights.

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They make more reflector lights because they sell more of them, simple isn’t it.

If I want flood I reach for my king 5x or kung 4x and light up the whole area.
If I want reach I use my Courui big head.
Two completely different styles of light, both good for their intended uses.
If I want both I use my UF f10, not as bright as a king/kung, not as much throw as the Courui, but decent at both.

I have several edc’s, good at what they do, flood to see at my feet and a bit of throw to see ahead.
Zoomies, I have two, a sk68, great around the house, not much use outside and a generic 2x 18650 xm-l with a blown driver, just can’t work up the interest in it to fix, while walking zoomed out there is no spill to see at my feet and while zoomed in there is no throw, and if I have it half way it is the same as my edc’s exept they don’t waste so many lumins on the inside of the head.

Just one question, why are you ramming zoomies down our throats, if you like them, great, have fun, or is it you are trying to justify your preferences by imposing them on us.

I could ask why manufacturers are wasting time developing zoomies, depriving the rest of us (the majority) developement time, but I know the answer, because they sell, money drives all businesses, therfore all research, the more it sells the more it is developed and reflector lights outsell zoomies.

I am now reaching for some popcorn, enjoy :party:

Cheers David

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Great points made!
That photo comparison is nicely done.
I like having both types of beams each for different uses.
Would be neat to have a light that zooms between the two beamshots shown,
a zoomie with hotspot in flood.

The reflector is certainly most desirable for walking biking etc but sometimes I like to discretely light up something in the distance with a pencil beam. Flashlights are awesome :bigsmile:

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pffftt…I buy em all…I’m a Photon Phreak :smiley:

Aspherics, reflectors, TIR’s, mules, minis

If it makes light and leaves that little “oh I just blinded myself” dot in my vision after I accidentally look at it…I am happy with it :smiley:

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Not sure what kind of zoomables you’ve tried.

None of my zoomable lights display any noticeable tint shift. The tint looks the same in flood mode, spot mode, and with the bare emitter with no lens in front of it. I probably own 20 different zoomies and none of them have any tint shift.

The only noticeable tint shift comes from dedoming. Dedoming very noticeably shifts the tint…. but that’s unrelated to the zoom optic. Dedoming is a mod performed to increase throw. It changes the tint regardless of whether it is performed in a zoomie or reflector light.

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Tint shift doesn’t occur when zooming (based on my expierence), it happens when you switch a reflector with an aspheric lens. Shifts to a ever so slightly warmer tint. Of course, this shift would mean nothing if used outdoors.

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By tint shift I actually mean shifting into a cooler tint (unlike dedome), for instance the lens may shift the LED tint from 6500K to somewhere above 7000K. I own quite a few of cheap zoomies like SK68, UF T20 and several 50mm, 51mm and 66mm aspherical lenses from DX for mods. I notice that all these lenses generally make the tint cooler and even looks purplish. My UF T20 used to have a dedomed XP-G2 in it and the projected tint looks unnatural, in both flood and throw condition. I’ve never came across any scientific study regarding the aspherical lens changing the tint yet, but I am able to perceive it.

I am guessing that the lens quality may play a part of this appearance since all my zoomies and lenses are cheap and I’ve never owned or tried a premium aspherical flashlight for comparison, so I can’t say for sure.

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Very nice developing of thread with plenty of personal experience and thoughts.

Some of you get me. Developing of new types of focusing system to make all purpose flashlight with as smaller dimensions as possible..., and so far in that field best focusing flashlight system is zoomie (optics + emitter). And everything stuck in that point... No more improving.

Sometimes(20 years ago) we thought that Maglite magcharger is perfect flashlight with reflector focusing system... Right? Things can be changed:

But why? Why could not laser be future flashlight technology? I mean diffused lasers not eye burners... We already have laser flashlights from Laser Genetics ND3 and ND5. They are far from perfect but it is possible... Laser freaks are only improving laser power but not laser diffusion.

This is huge reply :). Yes I am talking about zoomies today and how I would like to see them or other type of zooming system in future.

Zoomies are far from perfect but imagine very strong flood mode that can lid everything up from 1-200 meters.

For that would need to have very strong light intensity(higher than anything on market) combined with additional integrated or external dimmer

This is how I would like to see Flood mode in a future flashlights for example... You all probably used flashlights without reflector or aspheric head... (if you did not tried that emitter instantly lids whole room or few meters of space in front of you)

I mean on creating that kind of flood mode but with 10-20 or more times stronger intensity.

But typical flashlight user could find zoomie(today zoomies) as all purpose and even EDC light without any problem imho. Decent flood mode(I am not against XML in zoomie) in combination with throw if you need to see something further in the night...

The best light is the light you currently have in hand while you are in dark. Cant imagine someone carrying BTU shocker for everyday use.

Circumstances these lights excel in? Well I can use and prefer them for all EDC situations.

They excel when you need strong amount of light in small flashlight configuration:

- IR(infrared mode). They are no.1 and irreplaceable in this field weather you use simple CCTV camera system or very expensive Night vision devices for classic observation or hunting and they perfectly cover your NVS field of view.

- Lets say in forensic trail or clue search. You want to concentrate only on the part of room or only on particular object with desired light intensity (zoom in out). Here you can also use UV light in combination with luminol for searching blood trail.

- At the sea. I had plenty guys that bought them for searching(not sure how you guys call that) buoy,markers, beacon, fishing traps from the sea. They preserve your night vision and have greater possibility of light regulation while beam coming from reflector destroys your night vision on close and it can not throw good enough on longer distances. With aspherics you see further in the night.

KCD numbers of reflector and Aspheric are not the same. If you have same kcd competitors you will always see further with aspheric because of everything I mentioned above, and I really admire to guy in this thread that sees further in the night with useful spill :)

Some sea guy told me that he uses for measuring distance to the shore(but I don't understand what he tried to say with that or why he must do so).

- Hunting. Particularly scope hunting(covers scope field of use) although it can even serve as close duck hunting light. It is not spooking game so much as reflector light since there is no reflection from environment which game perceive much sooner or instantly if you use reflector light(for example if you use reflector light and start scanning at left point - game from the right point will see spill much before you hotspot it, while it will perceive aspheric type of beam only when directly exposed since there is no spill or environment reflection)

- Sheppard. Yes you heard me right. Sheppard took it(extreme zoomie called XSearcher) and he said that he is giving warning to wolves to not approach to his heard. And with 500 000 candela he can scan large areas. He said that it is the best light for such purpose.

- Duty light. For discrete searching without alerting whole neighborhood or blinding traffic. scanning large distance areas with certain equipment(monocular) if you are border control officer.

And my final thought would be it would be really for everything that you can imagine if they improve flood mode.

You should show flood mode on that picture where you compare zoomie vs reflector not just throw mode.

Yes it would be less intense with smaller area scan but it would be far more efficient than pencil throw beam you showed.

And one day when they invent extreme flood to throw flashlight I think that even "useful spill guys" will change their minds. Who knows? Maybe it will be reflector zoom system or maybe 2-3 different systems merged.

Enough from me... Sometimes some persons needs inspiration to made something good and unique. I would be glad if this thread could be inspirational to someone like some themes were inspirational to me (yes they even brought some $ to my pockets :) )...

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Reflector lights:
Advantages:

  1. Blend of Spill + Beam lets you see things in the distance, while also watching your footing up close.
  2. More efficient so more overall lumens
  3. Gradual blend from spot to spill isn’t harsh
  4. Easy to make waterproof
  5. Pleasing beam pattern

Disadvantages:

  1. Less throw than a same-size zoomable using the same emitter at same power.
  2. Beam can’t easily be tailored for your application.

Zoomable lights:
Advantages:

  1. Controllable beam shape can be optimized for looking at stuff close (wide flood), or for very far (spot beam with no flood).
  2. More throw than any comparable sized reflector light using the same emitter at the same pattern.
  3. In throw mode, there’s little or no spill. This can let you see further as light reflected off things in the foreground isn’t washing out the light reflected off things in the distance. Additionally, it can be used to light things up in the distance without alerting or disturbing your neighbors.
  4. Flood mode can be completely uniform with no spot. This can sometimes be quite helpful. For instance, I use an aspheric lens in my headlamp, because when I’m painting miniatures I want a totally uniform light output that doesn’t change if I shift my head.

Disadvantages:

  1. Typically not waterproof. Zooming mechanism usually changes the internal volume of the light. Air must be able to enter and escape the light so air pressure can equalize when zoom is cycled or the light won’t work right.
  2. Typically more cheaply built. Most premium manufacturers do not make zoomable lights.
  3. Less efficient than reflector lights
  4. Beam pattern may be ugly. In flood mode there’s often a harsh demarcation between the illuminated and non-illuminated area. Cheap ones will often have rings around the beam. And spot made looks like a rather ugly projection of the die.

Regarding lasers as flashlights:
Wickedlasers already sells a converter that turns a handheld laser into a flashlight. The concept is pretty simple. A diffraction grating (think opaque white plastic or glass) is placed in front of a blue laser. The laser hits it and blue light is emitted. The grating breaks up the light so what comes out is diffuse and not dangerous. Painted on top of the grating is a yellow phosphor layer that when hit with blue light emits red and green light, exactly like the phosphor layer on a white LED. A reflector is then placed on top to focus the white light.

In this design, the output should be very much like a typical white LED. The only advantage of using a laser is that lasers are more efficient than LEDs, so you could potentially get more lumens or runtime than with an LED.

However, the laser would have a big disadvantage: Someone could disassemble the head removing the diffraction grating and optic revealing a dangerous Class IV blue laser. This would cause all kinds of liability issues. I wouldn’t be surprised if laser flashlights become banned in many countries because of it. LEDs don’t have this danger.

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There is another advantage of aspherical flashlights: They are relatively easier for focus tuning. Unlike reflectored flashlights, you basically only need to shine your aspherical flashlight at a distance wall, zooming your light in and out until you see a clearly projected die shape and that’s the optimum focus point. Reflectored flashlight on the other hand is a PITA to adjust the focusing properly, and the larger of the reflector the harder it would be. Sometimes you would even need to take the risk and grinding, drilling or trimming something off the reflector base to get it focus nicely.

Another thing is we are always too afraid to touch the reflector just in case of scratching it, as the reflector surface is very smooth and delicate. However I can simply take out an aspherical lens, wash it under tap water, wipe it with a piece of cloth or tissue paper and play with it anyway I like in my hand. Don’t mind any fingerprint at all as I could easily wash it again.

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Where can I find an aspherical lens now?

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28mm lens this was suggested on reddit for the Fireflies NOV-MU, but it won’t work for all lights

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What kind of lens do you need? There are many options and it would be useful to narrow the question down.

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Which ones does it work for? Early or late d cells?

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Which lights will it work on?

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This is an ancient thread and I am not sure if it was mentioned before but one disadvantage of big aspheric lenses is the added weight.

The biggest yet still affordable aspheric I know of are the UF-1508 and 1605. On paper the biggest they spec is 75mm. There is a wide range of optic sizes available for these lights. They are spec’d as exterior diameter of the entire bezel. Not the diameter of the optic lens itself. My understanding of these lights though is they do not de-focus much, so their use as a general purpose flood light is limited.

I have been using a DIY UF-1504 with XPL-HI for a few years. No complaints. The XPL-HI is pretty robust. No problems with FET-direct drive overheating in this host with springs bypassed and IMR26650 cells. I do monitor temperatures carefully though. It will zoom out wide enough for my needs as a hand held trail light. I can put light exactly where I need it without blinding others. There’s no self-blinding, retina searing hot spot when I point it down to the trail. So it’s very easy to manage my night adapted vision.

One mod I have always wanted to try is to hack off the 1508 / 1605 75mm bezel-lens and JB weld it onto the front of a 1504. I don’t have the DIY skill to pull that off however. The 75mm lens and bezel are available separately here:
https://www.amazon.com/UniqueFire-Convex-Adjustable-UF-1508-Flashlight/dp/B01B18ZD6K/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=UF-1508&qid=1614012864&sr=8-1&th=1

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Nice analysis. Would be nice to add TIR to the mix.

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The advantage of a TIR I can think of is the spill between the hot spot and spill can be changed by switching the optic. You can go full flood or full spot and anything in between if you choose. They’re great for multi emitter setups and don’t effect the water resistance like an atmospheric lens in a zoomie does. Plus no bat signal die image when zoomed so the beam looks nice.

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Thread resurrection?! :sunglasses:

You can find them on aliexpress man :+1:

Worth to mention that the best budget commercial available lens are plastic! PMMA or acrylic lens with super great light transmittance and great performance continuity while performance of glass lens can vary a lot(up to 20% with a lot of color aberration).

IMHO all serious aspheric flashlight should tend to have them cause they are better performer than glass (at least all lens I tried up to 50mm size), light, more robust,waterproof, shockproof etc.

Glass has some advantages when you need to “blurry” out certain types of emitters and they usually give larger beam projection than plastic ones…

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For starters theres that massive zooming model list thread. I think it’s mainly focused on aspheric type designs.