17mm & 20/26/27mm single-sided DD/FET driver release: A17DD-SO8 / A20DD-SO8 / etc

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nitro
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Chazzy wrote:
Look what came in today! I should really start looking into rework stations... Silly !{width:50%}http://i.imgur.com/UFSmm5G.jpg![/quote]

Chazzy i might have a 2008D hot air station in about a week for a nice price if interested ? if so ill pm u when i get it might ask $60 shipped retail says $80 

Chazzy
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DBCstm wrote:
Chazzy, you’re gonna have to change your sig line…that lackadaisical response is about to take a twist in perspective! Wink

Hehe, that always seem to be my go to sarcastic response. I don’t think I’ve ever been successful conveying sarcasm through text.

nitro wrote:
Chazzy i might have a 2008D hot air station in about a week for a nice price if interested ? if so ill pm u when i get it might ask $60 shipped retail says $80

The main turn off for me right now is the grounding problem with the cheaper reflow stations. If I knew which wire goes where I would be fine purchasing one.

"Whoa that's a bright light!" ... Yea I guess.

wight
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wight wrote:
[snip] All that said, anyone wants to play around with testing different FETs, here are 3 which all appear to have some superior characteristics:
  • PSMN0R9-30YLD – rufusbduck pointed this one out, it has very similar characteristics to PSMN3R0-30YLD but is better. Slightly lower Rds(on) and slightly lower Vgs. Also significantly higher “total power dissipation”. We expect the lower Vgs to ensure that the FET remains more “fully open” on single cell setups.
  • SiR800DP – comfychair pointed this one out to me in reference to this driver by PM weeks ago. I forgot about it until I went looking for FETs which I thought might work properly with the QX7136-based A17LDQX driver and it turned up again in that context. Much lower Rds(on) than our selections so far and even lower Vgs than RBD’s selection. Again, the low Vgs should help keep the FET fully turned on.
  • SiS414DN – Another one which turned up during my search for good FETs for the QX7136. Low maximum current handling, 20A “package limited”. I’m not really sure exactly what a package limit involves, since we know that PowerPAK® SO-8 can handle at least 50A (the SiR800DP is spec’ed for that) and the graph in the datasheet goes way beyond 20A. Even lower Rds(on) than SiR800DP, but only slightly. Similar Vgs characteristics to SiR800DP. Lower Qg than SiR800DP, but I doubt that that will help us any. Costs less than the other two FETs in this list.
wight wrote:
[snip]
Rufusbduck wrote:
Typically we look at Rds on as tied to gate voltage but after slogging through some of these data sheets I see that it also varies with drain current and temp just not as dramatically. Which makes sense since resistance in most things goes up with temp. To test more would you start with the third possibility in the hope of seeing gains at lower cost in spite of the current limit or with CC’s suggestion to find the possible upper limit?
[snip] I wouldn’t have listed all 3 if I didn’t think that they were all just as worthwhile to test. That said, the maximum gain anyone can expect to see for an XP-G2 is probably around 0.1A, maybe 0.15A – and it doesn’t matter what FET package we are talking about, we’re that close to true DD here. The higher the current, the higher the gains, but there’s still very little to be had!
So errr, don’t order SiS414DN to use on this driver. I must have missed the fact that it’s actually PowerPAK 1212-8, a much smaller package than LFPAK56. That’s why the “package limited” values seemed so low!

Now I’m stuck w/ two of them (which I ordered for testing with the QX7136 over here)… maybe that’s an excuse to make a smaller driver of some type?

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

wight
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cajampa wrote:
Is this kind of FET smaller than the one used in the BLFTiny10DD or 15? If it is maybe it could be updated to a A10DD-(some nice acronym for the new smaller FET) with room for a battery positive on one side so you don’t have to build one over the mcu for example.
It’s slightly larger than SOT23 (and significantly higher performance IIRC). It appears that PowerPAK 1212-8 is also known as: LFPAK33, DFN3.3×3.3, PQFN08B, EDFN 3×3, TSDSON-8, Micro8 Leadless, and MLP08S according to this document from NXP.

There are even smaller modern power-MOSFET packages which might be good choices for the task you mentioned. It appears that there is a SOT-363 compatible footprint being used now which is referred to as things like “PowerPAK SC-70-6” and “UDFN2020-6” and probably other things. It’s more like 2×2 rather than 3.3×3.3. Maybe something in that size could be found the for the smallest DD drivers. That said, if the larger 3.3×3.3 pacakage fits it’s what I’d probably go with.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

cajampa
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Thanks for the answer wight, i realized that it was larger myself after my post so i deleted it, i am glad you saw it before i did Smile

Of course if it would even be possible to make an even tighter 10mm FET driver i would be very interested, i have a bunch of small 10440 possible hosts coming that i just have Smile to somehow put a XP-L V6 and a tiny driver in, but i think the slimmer the driver could get the less modification i will probably have to do to make it work and leave more room for heatsinking.

What do you think of the SI5415AEDU-T1-GE3, would something like that work?
it is a 1,9mm x 3 mm PowerPAK-8 ChipFET Single

Or a PowerPAK SC-70-6 SIA414DJ-T1-GE3

If you would use the 3,3 × 3,3 what about A10DD-M8 as in “Micro8 solderless” and something that sounds similar to M80 and a FET DD driver in tiny aaa size packs a lot of BANG in a size of 2 M80’s J)

DB Custom
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When I first built the Tiny10 FET the intention was for an Efest IMR10440 to run it at around 3A. But I was urged to test it with larger cells. As I recall it went up to almost 6A with bigger 18650 cells before I quit, wanting to use it in my favorite light and not kill it.

I have a new one in that light now that is pushing an XP-L V6 2C at 966 lumens from the Efest IMR10440 at 3.2A current draw. My cells are old, not fully charging anymore, so I have a couple of new ones on the way. Looking to get 1000 lumens from this 3” neck light. Smile (the 2502 FET is the one it uses, I think)

cajampa
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Hi Dale, yes you and your Texas Poker is a big inspiration in my pursuit to build something that small and powerful, + i just today found djozz second mod of the “LZZ-06” :http://budgetlightforum.com/node/29825
And i had already ordered one, nice looks like the possible host i wanted Smile

Besides the BLFTiny10-12DD i am also considering trying a QTC direct drive in a twisty to get some control and usable lower output, they should manage up to 10A.

I wonder i anyone have tried one in a 18650 twisty………

DB Custom
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The A17DD-S08… NAKED!

How well do you know your drivers? Can you populate it like this, without looking at any cheat sheets? I must’ve done too many or something, because I CAN! lol

WarHawk-AVG
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What did you use 2000 grit sandpaper to strip that?

DB Custom
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1000 grit Carbide paper.

wight
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DBCstm wrote:
The A17DD-S08… NAKED! http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600×1200q90/538/L7zAHL.jpg How well do you know your drivers? Can you populate it like this, without looking at any cheat sheets? I must’ve done too many or something, because I CAN! lol
‘course I can. Smile

Stylish!

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

DB Custom
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I forget so much, so fast, it’s simply astonishing that I can look at this layout and know what goes where without even thinking about it. Smile

Just goes to show, priorities are always a key factor! lol LOVE this driver! It has greatly eased my process and the fit into a light is so simplified it’s almost like cheating.

wight
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ToyKeeper wrote:
wight wrote:
Here is a high power single sided FET driver. …

Looks pretty awesome. This looks a whole lot easier to fit into a Cypreus EDC than the BLF17DD I used. I especially like that it’s compatible with retaining rings, since I hate soldering in something I might want to reflash later. And it’s ready for zener and off-time cap and everything!

Any chance of adding a single 7135 chip somewhere, attached to a PWM-capable pin? Giving it “moonlight special” hardware would be icing on the cake. No more need to use tricky fast PWM=0 hacks to make a high-powered light work at low levels, not to mention longer runtime on modes under ~350mA.

Edit: For my purposes, additional 7135 chips wouldn’t matter. I just want the lowest modes to work better without sacrificing the ZOMG WTF BBQ blinding output offered by a FET. One 7135 could handle modes from 0.1 lm up to about 50 lm, and the FET could handle the rest.

Peer pressure begets another driver:

17mm DD+single-7135 driver – single sided & Dual-PWM compatible?

It looks ready to go to me. What are we using for moonlight with a single 7135 these days? I think you posted some good info in RMM’s store thread, but I’ve lost track.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

bugsy36
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What would be cool would be if an optional 15mm daughter board with 7135 to be attached to this great piece of work which would in effect keep the bottom flat for the retaining ring. That way maybe there is the possibility of adding up 4 or 5 7135's to suit one's needs.

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

Ευκαιρία λέει πιάσε με από το μέτωπο γιατί μόλις έχω περάσει δεν θα με πιάσειs

wight
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bugsy36 wrote:

 

What would be cool would be if an optional 15mm daughter board with 7135 to be attached to this great piece of work which would in effect keep the bottom flat for the retaining ring. That way maybe there is the possibility of adding up 4 or 5 7135’s to suit one’s needs.

Mattaus already made a 16mm daughter board which carries up to 6*7135. It’s in the OSH Park projects thread. Depending on the goals that is a good option.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

bugsy36
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And how would the daughter board mate to this driver for control...and is there firmware yet that can handle it? Sort of like that 7135+FET Turbo that you have sitting around the million other ideas ( Smile ) except this keeps the retaining ring side clear and you do not have to struggle to find 1/10th of  millimeter. LOL

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

Ευκαιρία λέει πιάσε με από το μέτωπο γιατί μόλις έχω περάσει δεν θα με πιάσειs

wight
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Eh, the PCB Mattaus shared is intended to be used with 1 PWM signal for the whole PCB. So you’d have 1 PWM signal for that board and 1 PWM signal for the FET. [EDIT: This should be workable with the current STAR_off_time firmware.] You would not be able to achieve as low a LL/Moonlight as you the single 7135 setup or the 6*7135+FET Turbo setup (which is setup for 1*7135 w/ PWM + X*7135 w/out PWM + FET w/ PWM).

Mattaus’s PCB uses 4 wires: GND, LED-, LED+ (just passthrough), and PWM. You airwire the whole thing together. It would definitely be possible for me (or Mattaus or whoever) to layout a pair of PCBs specifically intended for stacking, but I don’t see me doing it anytime soon.

I don’t know of any specific instances where the hybrid 7135+FET driver won’t fit where people want it to. I’m sure they exist and I wouldn’t mind hearing about them (in that thread…).

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

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wight wrote:
Peer pressure begets another driver:

17mm DD+single-7135 driver – single sided & Dual-PWM compatible?

It looks ready to go to me. What are we using for moonlight with a single 7135 these days? I think you posted some good info in RMM’s store thread, but I’ve lost track.


Awesome! Best of both worlds. Smile

I don’t have a single-7135 driver at the moment, but the moon level depends on both that and on the specific LED used. Like, for an XM-L2 it can probably run at about 6 or 7, but an original XM-L may need 9 or 10.

This driver looks like it should do almost everything for almost everyone. The only thing missing is a zener, and there are other drivers available for that. I’m not really into multi-serial-cell lights anyway; my only MT-G2 light was pretty disappointing so I’m not eager to make more.

wight
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It seems that we are having some problems with Zener builds. I thought I’d tested one out on a little PSU at least, but now I’m not so sure: both DBCstm and RMM have reported [by PM] being unable to build a Zener configuration with v024 and have it work!

RMM reports that placing the cap which normally goes at C1 on the Zener pads and then stacking the Zener on top of that works. That’s pretty doable and a great way to salvage existing boards if needed.

We know the schematic to be good, the same schematic works for other designs. RMM reports that his new 17mm & 20mm drivers of similar design are functioning, so it seems clear that this is a layout issue on mine. I’ll re-test with the Zener pretty soon.

In the meantime, here’s an UNTESTED revision intended to address RMM’s suggestion of moving the C1 closer to the MCU. C1 is now fed through a single thin trace, R1 has been moved so that it is no longer between C1 and D1/R3, and C1 and D1/R3 are connected through a massive trace, and all of this is happening right next to the MCU’s Vcc pin. I also increased the size of LED+ slightly and doubled down on the GND vias. EDIT: and no, LED+ and MCU Vcc do not actually touch. It’s just OSH Park’s rending system that displays it that way.

v030

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/OODIn7Cf

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

wight
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Since I’d been playing with the layout again for this driver it struck me that what I’d really always wanted was LED+/- pads that were across from each other. IMO that’s a key aspect when it comes to very,very, tight builds. I set about shuffling things around, but they wouldn’t play nicely. Then I recalled that the LFPAK56 footprint I was using sucked. Switching to a normal Power-SO8 footprint helped, but it took me a long time to achieve the level of symmetry I was looking for. Without the OTC it’s actually really easy to do all kinds of great symmetrical patterns (ask me how I know, oops!). In the end this was the best I could do. Now that the signature look of the original driver is entirely gone, I’m not sure whether to call it something else or what.

Also note that I didn’t spruce up the Power-SO8 footprint any for LFPAK56 use. While it should function fine I’ll probably do that at some point.

As far as functioning with the Zener, this should be very similar to v030. (so in theory they both should work fine :p)

Oops, don’t use this one. I made a minor error with the vias & GND ring on top. While this one should work, I recommend v024, v030, or wait for v042.

v041

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/7kgkoOau

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

DB Custom
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Now moron’s like me can stack the MCU on the MOSFET footprint. Silly

That looks nice Wight, dont’ think you should change the name as the Revision number suffices. That’s just me though. I’ll have to get some of these, and solder paste stencils, and give em a go. (starting to get more than I can remember what goes where) I need to use up the ones I have and switch over to these… my memory doesn’t multi-task well.

Hikelite
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wight wrote:
It seems that we are having some problems with Zener builds. I thought I'd tested one out on a little PSU at least, but now I'm not so sure: both DBCstm and RMM have reported [by PM] being unable to build a Zener configuration with v024 and have it work!.............

My zener build of A20DD-SO8 does not work either, normal build works ok.

DB Custom
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Put the capacitor under the Zener, that’s supposed to do the trick.

What I don’t know is if it takes a second capacitor or just relocation of the C1.

wight
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DBCstm wrote:
Put the capacitor under the Zener, that’s supposed to do the trick.

What I don’t know is if it takes a second capacitor or just relocation of the C1.

I’m sure that relocating C1 is sufficient.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

Hikelite
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DBCstm wrote:
Put the capacitor under the Zener, that's supposed to do the trick. What I don't know is if it takes a second capacitor or just relocation of the C1.

Yeah I read about that, but the C1 is half the length of the pads for the zener. Anyway I assume the layout will get fix without the need to make-shift.

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I didn’t know if it needed to be there for continuity or if the pads should be jumpered or what. Thought it might be necessary to continue the lineage for the LVP.

wight
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Oops, another minor mistake. The WIP v041 version has a problem with the GND vias and GND rings. I’d hold off on that one until I can release v042, although it should function. In the meantime v024 is still fine for single cell builds or Zener w/ the workaround described above and v030 should be OK for Zener builds w/out a workaround.

DBCstm wrote:
I didn’t know if it needed to be there for continuity or if the pads should be jumpered or what. Thought it might be necessary to continue the lineage for the LVP.
No, it should be fine with C1 completely unpopulated as long as you’re doing a Zener build and have place the cap for C1 over on the Zener pads with the Zener.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

wight
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Hikelite wrote:

DBCstm wrote:
Put the capacitor under the Zener, that’s supposed to do the trick. What I don’t know is if it takes a second capacitor or just relocation of the C1.

Yeah I read about that, but the C1 is half the length of the pads for the zener. Anyway I assume the layout will get fix without the need to make-shift.

Correct, C1 is not a great fit there. You may also place C1 right next to R2. There is plenty of space to put C1 Against the right-hand end of the Zener and either solder the other end to the GND ring (scrape first) or solder it to the GND side of R2. I’ve just checked to make sure it would work, I was able to solder the cap in there without an issue with the Zener already in place. Adding some extra solder will help. EDIT: be sure not to solder to the other end of R2 (the end pointed towards the middle of the PCB).

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

DB Custom
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All of my first Zener mods had the Zener laying down, embracing the capacitor on a Qlite driver. Can’t see how this one would be any different.

DB Custom
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Let me ask this then, if I already have the driver built (I’ve got 9 sitting waiting to be used) and I have need for a Zener modded version…can I add a second capacitor with the Zener? Do I need to remove the C1 from it’s original location?

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