The purpose of MAP and how it really helps us

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bugsy36
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The purpose of MAP and how it really helps us

The subject of MAP has come up before. More often than not it is frowned upon but if we want to interact more with manufacturers to bring what we want we must understand what MAP is and not chastise any manufacturer if they ever mention the acronym - MAP.

MAP - Too many that might as well be a four letter word.

Many manufacturers, whether be it flashlights or other goods utilize MAP (Manufacturer Advertised Price). Regrettably though, many assume that the purposeful MAP is to help the manufacturer to make more dollars per sale. That could not be further from the truth. The real purpose of MAP is to actually increase sales for the manufacturer....and believe it or not, it truly does work.

First, MAP did not originate from manufacturers. Dealers actually invented MAP and centralized it through the manufacturers. You see, as a dealer, why would you want to stock and sell a product that would not have any real profit margin? In a dealer's world there is usually what is known as a "buy in" (the initial order). In the world of flashlights that is usually a few thousand dollars. Without some sort of manufacturer help why would you make that investment on a chance? I know I would not and that is where MAP comes in.

All authorized dealers (meaning direct buyers) have to agree to the MAP pricing in order to get the true wholesale pricing. This helps eliminate price wars and past, present, and future dealers can make some money. The manufacturer benefits with increased sales because more dealers want to buy from them. The manufacturers only are worried about what they can sell for prices that they already decided upon before the actual manufacture. They have no desire to increase that price. They want to move that product and produce more or produce something with newer features.

We all know that there are ways around MAP but those of that know how to do that are only a super-small percentage of a dealer's customer base. In reality, that part of the MAP game actually helps the dealers too because as the general populace sees what we have then they will start to seek also. The hard part is that the general populace cannot know that we get MAP discounts. It is what can be called an unspoken truth.

The flip side of not having MAP is uuugly. Without MAP: Dealers would not want to buy a product that they cannot make any profits from. Manufacturers would be fewer because too many would fold to lack of sales. We, the end-users, would suffer from lack of innovation and competition which would lead to stale and expensive products.

Just something for everybody to think about as we try and engage more and more manufacturers. MAP really does benefit all of us.

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

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Racer
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That’s one way to look at it. I suppose it might be a good thing if you’re a large dealer. MAP goes against the laws of economics to keep prices artificially high. That used to be called price fixing, and it was generally considered a bad thing until it was reborn as MAP, now with 20% more sprinkles!

But there’s no way that keeping prices artificially high is good for the consumer. MAP is anti-consumer.

kuoh
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I can’t say that I agree with all that. With MAP, everything sells at the same price, unless you know the secret code/people. There is no competition and some of the manufacturers set a high MAP, whether the brand / product performance, quality or support warrant it or not. Without MAP, good products will sell at market bearing prices. Lesser / bad products will not sell and fall out of the market. It may finally drive some of the low to middle end manufacturers who are pretending to be high end out of the markets, but I doubt it would significantly stifle innovation or development, if at all. In my view, more MAP only means higher profits and lead to higher prices for all. Otherwise, why don’t they put MAP on everything? After all, you say it benefits all of us and leads to more sales.

KuoH

bugsy36 wrote:
Without MAP: Dealers would not want to buy a product that they cannot make any profits from. Manufacturers would be fewer because too many would fold to lack of sales. We, the end-users, would suffer from lack of innovation and competition which would lead to stale and expensive products.

Just something for everybody to think about as we try and engage more and more manufacturers. MAP really does benefit all of us.

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Well put bugsy36. Racer I can really only see MAP being anti-consumer in situations like Beats or Apple, where there isn’t much of a way around it at all.

-Clark

bugsy36
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Actually, there is MAP on practically everything. Most just do not know it.

As for anti-consumer...when has that been any different? Sellers and buyers have always been on the opposite sides of the table but there are things that are done by both parties that benefit the other. As a seller I want to get all your money and as a buyer I do not want to give you anything. neither one of those can actually work so a middle ground of understanding is needed.

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

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tekwyzrd
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According to what I’ve seen MAP is “Minimum Advertised Pricing” and it is imposed by manufacturers. I have seen firsthand the problems it can cause. I purchased a plasma tv from hhgregg that I was very happy with and when looking for a tv for my mother returned to the store to find they no longer carried any panasonic products. The reason? They were caught selling below the manufacturer’s MAP limits. If a seller can price an item low and still make a profit they should be allowed to do so without the threats to cut off supply of merchandise. MAP is a case of collusion to impose inflated prices on consumers.

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kuoh
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If it’s not enforced, it isn’t MAP, just suggested retail price.

KuoH

bugsy36 wrote:

Actually, there is MAP on practically everything. Most just do not know it.

bugsy36
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The MAP did not cause the problem. That was HHgregg trying to undercut the others. MAP has to be enforced by the manufacturer otherwise it falls in the monopoly or price fixing category in legal terms.

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

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bugsy36
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kuoh wrote:
If it's not enforced, it isn't MAP, just suggested retail price. KuoH
bugsy36 wrote:

Actually, there is MAP on practically everything. Most just do not know it.

And part of what manufacturer reps do is monitor that.

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

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tekwyzrd
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bugsy36 wrote:

The MAP did not cause the problem. That was HHgregg trying to undercut the others. MAP has to be enforced by the manufacturer otherwise it falls in the monopoly or price fixing category in legal terms.

MAP is price fixing. It’s no different than the case years ago where the major grocery chains were found guilty of price fixing, fined, and forced to compensate consumers for artificially inflated prices. In the OP you stated:

Quote:
First, MAP did not originate from manufacturers. Dealers actually invented MAP and centralized it through the manufacturers.
That’s collusion and price-fixing.

Nothing travels faster than the speed of light with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws. – Douglas Adams

Bort
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Do you ever ask yourself why you have to defend manufacturers from us, the evil consumers?
I can find virtues in almost any subject if i look hard enough, it does not make them a good idea.

MAP is a form of price fixing which is legal, there are many policies that aim to reproduce profitable or discriminatory activity that has been made illegal but just barely remain on the right side of the law.

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My take on Bugsy’s point of view is that MAP isn’t necessarily an evil thing.

Or if it is “bad”, it is not “all bad”. Evil

I don’t believe that Bugsy is in any way attempting to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes – especially the sharpshooting BLF crowd.

Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.

kronological
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Bort wrote:
The OP is a shill. Do you ever ask yourself why you have to defend manufacturers from us, the evil consumers?
I can find virtues in almost any subject if i look hard enough, it does not make them a good idea.

MAP is a form of price fixing which is legal, there are many policies that aim to reproduce profitable or discriminatory activity that has been made illegal but just barely remain on the right side of the law.


Why is it that a touchy subject can’t be brought up without someone using ad hominem attacks?

I’m not saying I agree or disagree with the OP, but aren’t we mature enough to have a conversation around here without attacking someone personally?

Sheez… :~

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tatasal
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Bort wrote:
The OP is a shill.

Whether he is or not is not really the point, and we can discuss this topic subjectively, as brought up several times before.

Btw, the premise of the OP is flawed for MAP is ‘minimum advertised price’, and it’s imposed by the manufacturer, and I know first hand of one manufacturer who is prowling the forum for any violator of their product’s MAP pricing
from its dealers.

Dealers, on the hand, are meeting us in the middle ground by offering various promotions via pm.

Here’s a link about MAP:

https://www.sba.gov/blogs/how-minimum-advertised-pricing-impacts-your-re...

zelee
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Speaking of MAP i remember about Niwalker Vostro fiasco

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Quote:
MAP is “Minimum Advertised Pricing” and it is imposed by manufacturers.

That’s how I’ve always understood it — it’s not a lower limit for the selling price.
The manufacturer isn’t setting the bar for the price that you might pay — you can walk in the door and ask for a better price.
tatasal
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zelee wrote:
Speaking of MAP i remember about Niwalker Vostro fiasco

Oh yes, and I will be the last person to forget it:

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/22095

…and that was before the GB/BG dogfight !!!!

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tl;dr

dont care about map. we seem to get around it 90% of the time.

sometimes the deals get killed, but then 5 more take its place.

Would you mind keeping the wrong flashlight?
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bugsy36
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hank wrote:
Quote:
MAP is “Minimum _Advertised_ Pricing” and it is imposed by manufacturers.
That's how I've always understood it -- it's not a lower limit for the _selling_ price. The manufacturer isn't setting the bar for the price that you might pay -- you can walk in the door and ask for a better price.

BINGO!!!!

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

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Resale price maintenance

It is illegal for suppliers to:

  • put pressure on businesses to charge their recommended retail price or any other set price, for example by threatening to stop supplying to the reseller
  • stop resellers from advertising, displaying or selling goods from the supplier below a specified price.

It is also illegal for resellers to ask their suppliers to use recommended price lists to stop competitors from discounting. In most cases, a supplier may specify a maximum price for retail.

from: https://www.accc.gov.au/business/anti-competitive-behaviour/imposing-min...

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bugsy36
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Call me what you may. I could give a rat's tooshie. What I am is not what you call a shill but a businessman.... Which based on your posts of late that is one thing that you cannot and thankfully do not lay claim to. There is a big difference between explaining how something works vs defending something. You can stay in the cheese line all you like and complain that they only gave one block instead of two. I do not believe in entitlement and certainly do believe that anything is free. Moreover, there is proof in my methods of practice.

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

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bugsy36
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1dash1 wrote:
My take on Bugsy's point of view is that MAP isn't necessarily an evil thing. Or if it is "bad", it is not "all bad". Evil _I don't believe that Bugsy is in any way attempting to pull the wool over anyone's eyes - especially the sharpshooting BLF crowd._

Exactly. It is not all bad. Too many people believe that it is for manufacturers to charge more when in reality it is not. Just think about it...if we lost every single local dealer then all lights would end up having to get ordered in from China and everyone would have to wait weeks to get theirs. There are people that will pay twice as much as us to get what they want immediately.

jmpaul320 wrote:
tl;dr dont care about map. we seem to get around it 90% of the time. sometimes the deals get killed, but then 5 more take its place.

When the deals get so loud that they start popping up on search engines then yeah..they will shut them down. For the most part WE do not have to worry about it.

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

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If you wish to argue about MAP then i stand by my statement thats its the closest legal thing to price fixing allowed (of course if a few more pro business supreme court justices are assigned next term consumers will lose many more rights, which some argue is a good thing).

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[/quote] If you wish to argue about MAP then i stand by my statement thats its the closest legal thing to price fixing allowed (of course if a few more pro business supreme court justices are assigned next term consumers will lose many more rights, which some argue is a good thing).[/quote]

Let's go with that....

Does anybody realize that every McDonalds, Denny's, Taco Bell, or any franchise, actually does the same thing? That is some of the broadest "price fixing" that I have ever seen. To make it worse...it really is not needed in those examples but their prices are still dictated.

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

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Don’t understand why this is rearing it’s dead head again.
MAP wars/discussions have come back to life on BLF more than Freddy Krueger Smile

Not taking any positions here, it’s all been said many times before.
Later,
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bugsy36
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Muto wrote:
Don't understand why this is rearing it's dead head again. MAP wars/discussions have come back to life on BLF more than Freddy Krueger Smile Not taking any positions here, it's all been said many times before. Later, Keith

It has but what I have never seen is a clear explanation nor any attempt to understand why we have to deal with it. The minute that acronym gets mentioned everybody flips out and that really is not necessary. What is necessary for us to improve and advance the hobby is to accept that it is there to stay and how to work with it instead of stalling the hobby by just slamming the door....actually a revolving door that swings around to smack us in the butt.

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

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kuoh
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I don’t see that as the same thing. To the consumer, all McDonald’s are the same entity, so there is nothing wrong with all of their stores charging the same price for the same burger. Now if MCD, BK, Wendy’s all served the exact same burger for the exact same price, then there might be a case.

KuoH

bugsy36 wrote:

Does anybody realize that every McDonalds, Denny’s, Taco Bell, or any franchise, actually does the same thing? That is some of the broadest “price fixing” that I have ever seen.

bugsy36
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But they actually are not the same entity. They are merely distributors for the same corporation and consequently make millions doing so. Burger King and Wendy's also franchise and using the same pricing schemes. It certainly is not to benefit the consumer...or is it?

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

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kuoh
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They are different entities in the eyes of their respective franchise corporation and tax collectors, but to the general public, they are essentially the same, thus the consistent pricing within each brand. Now if MCD, BK and Wendy’s all purchased the same premade burger, just microwave and serve, then are forced to adopt MAP pricing by the supplier, see how many people believe that’s a benefit to the consumer then, health effects aside.

KuoH

bugsy36 wrote:

But they actually are not the same entity. They are merely distributors for the same corporation and consequently make millions doing so.

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Collusion hinders the free market and benefits nobody

bugsy36
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True. To most they do all look alike but isn't the same true of products. The average consumer does not know what wholesale cost is and brand zzz costs xx much.

About tyranny...nobody "has" to buy. They can choose different unless "that" is what they want...oops...doesn't that sound like capitalism?

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

Ευκαιρία λέει πιάσε με από το μέτωπο γιατί μόλις έχω περάσει δεν θα με πιάσειs

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