Remember the A is for “Advertising” — resellers can sell for a price “too low to advertise” — in the US under current law.
One of the links I quoted earlier warns that — in the US under current law — MAP cannot be an “agreement” and spells out the caution that manufacturers are warned against even extended conversations with resellers about the advertised price. In fact it points out that the services searching the web for MAP violations are used in part so the manufacturer is not even under suspicion of playing favorites or cutting special deals. Instead the monitoring is done by an independent business that provides that service.
Under the Supreme Court case that controls — in the US under current law — that kind of agreement is explicitly something MAP is supposed to avoid, because that’s where price-fixing happens.
Ya know....never EVER was this intended to start arguments or even give reasons to hurl personal insults. That shows nothing but a lack of civility and complete ignorance. Nobody stated that anybody "had" to agree but because someone does not follow your ideology does not make him or her and idiot as you guys all portray them (anybody) to be. I have never been afraid to state an opinion in a respectful manner, and I even have corrected/reversed myself when logical arguments are produced. The majority of this thread is nothing but emotion and not fact and logic even if the facts or logic do not benefit you.
DavidEF - My apologies that you got caught up this. Thank you for trying to at least understand, whether in agreement or not.
Bort - MAP is not price fixing as your own words so state. You also mention "our rights"...do not business have the right to choose also or are we living in a society where we will have to ask for permission to make purchases by getting on a government list. Also paying for CREE and getting Lb has nothing to do with MAP...that is fraud.
Muto - Freddy was eventually killed but capitalism cannot ;)
Wdkingery - The free market means that the consumer has a choice, as do the suppliers. All a business is responsible for is to provide us with what we agree to pay for and the consumer pay for what is provided.
Southland - We have proven time and time again that MAP can be avoided and often circumvented
SawMaster - Actually it is not about controlling any market as much as it is maintaining profitability of a distributing infrastructure to allow people to have more choices.
Hank - Whether you agree or not thank you for at least looking at this objectively
O.L - I cannot comment to your comments, I want to but I am torn and since I am NOT a dealer with NOTHING to gain I would rather just be surprised and disagree.
Jack Kellar - The subject of MAP is not price gouging if for nothing else you do not need to buy any flashlight other than what you want to pay for
RC -
Kuoh - Simply put, if a dealer cannot profit selling an item then that dealer will not stock that item and then since no dealers will purchase an item from a manufacturer then that manufacturer will cease to exist which in turn actually limits choices more and even raises prices because of less competition. If a manufacturer stated that a dealer can sell no other brand (and they used to) then that is limiting choices.
DanielM - Do you really have anything to say that has any substance, whether in agreement or not? You have added nothing but insults in the last several postings you made not in this thread but many threads.
B42 - The consumer chooses whether or not they feel something is worth paying for. If not then it does not sell and the market automatically corrects it or it ends up going away.
Everyone that agrees with you uses fact and logic.
Everyone that disagrees with you uses emotion, lack of civility, and complete ignorance.
...
Two friends walk into a bar.
The bartender asks, "What will you have?"
The first friend says, "I'll have you know that MAP helps everyone."
The second friend says, "I agree, and my claims are based on fact. Anyone that says differently bases their claims on feelings, with no reasonable objection, and only childish preference."
The bartender says, "Two cosmopolitans, coming right up."
Well this has been a rather eye opening post… Where is the pig head on a stick???
I am rather new to this forum, and am quite surprised by this outburt of pitchforks, torches, tar, and feathers. I am not affiliated with any company on this forum, I just work at a small automotive shop and have some experience with MAP.
I don’t see why everyone is getting so bent out of shape about Minimum ADVERTISED Pricing… That all important word implicitly states that’s the lowest price a selling dealer is allowed to advertise. All it does is keep some seller on the “internetz” from creating a cheap website that sells everything for $1 over cost, drop shipping items, and punting any claims of damages or defective goods back to the manufacturer. So, yes it is good for the dealers, because it allows them to earn a living wage, pay their bills, pay their employees, invest in more inventory to better serve you, buy a jetski, etc… Profit is NOT a four letter word.
MAP has nothing to do with true cost, if a manufacturer makes a product that is of a build quality that does not warrant its price tag, it will not sell. You as a consumer still live in a dollar democracy where you vote with your money. If you have enough gumption to root out a better price, more power to you, all MAP does in the day of the “Internetz” is keep some cutthroat company from spamming Google with super low prices to be at the top of any web search for a product… It isn’t this malevolent force that’s out to bleed you dry.
I understand that the EU, AUS, and UK may deem it to be illegal but let me ask:
As of when do the laws of a nation equal the laws of the rest of the world?
This post is about the purpose of MAP and not the validity of the laws of sovereign nations
Why are people in the EU, AUS, and UK ordering internationally?
If those same laws deem MAP to be illegal then everybody in the EU, UK, and AUS should be able to purchase the same products at the same prices that we buy internationally.
Unless of course those product by those companies are not available due to the government interference (which is what the USA was actually founded upon)
Why is it that more products are available in the US than any other place in the world?
Free trade allows for all products, except items that affect national security or public health, to be sold if the market (or populace) is willing to pay. VAT is the biggest hindrance to free trade, not MAP
All of the products that we here purchase internationally are available in the US. We choose to forego the immediate satisfaction of receipt in order to achieve a better price. Even so, we and all flashlight forums combined still do not put a dent in total sales of the flashlight market (one reason why we get away with what we do...which also provides benefit to manufacturers and dealers). The stocking dealers need to make money in order to survive, it is as simple as that.
For those that disagree, please open a brick and mortar store that sells/distributes flashlights (and all that goes with it such as rent, insurance, payroll, inventory with buy-ins) and sell for what you think at this moment is a fair price and profit. How long would that store actually stay around? MAP helps that and obviously it does work because those dealers that endure the expense of a business actually do stick around. Even an internet dealer would find it difficult to be profitable.
As stated in the OP...the manufacturers benefit because dealers DO want to sell their product to their own customers that are willing to pay for it. It does not mean BLF members have to be willing to pay for it but we are not a blip in the whole picture. :)
Everything, or about everything is available in Europe as it is in the US. (EDIT no it is about the same, maybe product A not here but product B not there /EDIT)
Buying stuff from China as a lot of us do is simply cheaper.
Sure government plays a huge part in this, taxes, wages, expenses are higher because of regulations we have that they don’t have in China. And I agree that US government is slightly less influential then EU governments, but companies have a bigger influence on rules and regulations in the US, thus it is very locigal a system like MAP that mainly benefits companies and seems less beneficial for consumers is allowed in the US.
As different as we may be,
We’re all one big family,
If we just agree,
We’re gonna disagree.
Why can’t we all just get a long neck,
And make a toast to peace and harmony?
Why, why can’t we all just get a long neck,
And see how good getting along can be?
MAP and NOMAP are two equal products being wholesaled at identical prices. A retailer buys MAP for resale, knowing his retail price will not be undercut by a competitor. He also knows that if he also offers NOMAP at the usual lower price set by the market competition he will make less profit per unit than by selling MAP but he will move more units and probably end up with the same net income. And he know that doing this would result in reduced sales of MAP because in comparison it would be seen as overpriced by his customers because it is overpriced- NOMAP sales being higher proves that. So most retailers would either choose to not sell NOMAP so as to not hurt their MAP sales or to not offer MAP so they don’t get stuck holding boxes of MAP which does not sell.
I fail to see an advantage unless every wholesaler is like MAP in setting guaranteed prices. It either influences the retailer to not sell NOMAP-type items or restricts his product line to MAP-like items only, and neither is good for the retailer seeking to expand their product line or consumer who either loses buying choices or ends up paying more than they needed to for a given product. Drop-shippers won’t be harmed but those retailers with an investment in inventory will be, which discourages a whole segment of marketers from entering the business. No matter what, the MAP wholesalers and retailers will sell less product than they could so they lose from the practice, not gain from it.
There’s the simple logic of this, no emotions or feelings involved. Show me where I am wrong Bugsy36. Educate me for I do not like to be stupid and I crave truth.
Here’s the simple truth: Retailers will likely sell both MAP and NOMAP right next to each other on the shelf and not be bothered at all by it. All the retailer cares about is that it does sell. And, if it does not sell, they will offer a coupon to get rid of it, and not order any more from the manufacturer. In the end, only the manufacturer can be hurt by MAP policies. Consumers can always choose not to buy, and retailers can always choose not to lose money by giving store shelf space to something that will not sell. As for the supposed conflict about more/less profit for the retailer. I’m certain they won’t let that be a major factor in whether or not to sell the product. If it can sell, and make some reasonable profit, they will give shelf space to it. The bigger problem for them would be for their competitor to have it on the shelf and they not, if it is a good selling product.
The MAP policies are for the dealers. The MAP police come about because of complaints. The manufacturers set their prices. Any salesman worth a flip will not let someone walk out the door (within reason) BUT that is not a violation of MAP and happens regularly. The discount, if given, is based on the the profit needed by the dealer and not necessarily greed. Yet the uninformed believe that profit is evil and based on greed. That is just simply not true (unless we want to discuss pharmaceuticals that we subsidize for the world.)
MAP ≠ what flashlight companies are claiming as MAP.
We had our group buys stomped on because our secret price as below the minimum advertised price.
As some have pointed out, large online malls (Amazon, etc.) go around this by putting “Too low to show… please view price in cart,” which isn’t a violation of MAP. Weirdly enough, Chinese manufacturers shoot us nasty PMs saying “you’ve violated MAP blah blah blah” when they’re the ones not grasping the meaning of minimum advertised price.
So, I do agree that MAP can be useful when used correctly, I’ve yet to see a proper implementation in the flashlight community.
MAP is a deliberate attempt to drive up prices and create an artificial prestige status to a brand.
In Australia for example, it is illegal as it is seen as a form of collusion/market fixing.
How much are the companies paying you to be their spokesman OP ?
Are you aware you’re advocating a criminal offence in some countries?
