[07-MAR-2016] Current status of BLF upgrade process

Iā€™ve fielded some of my opinions on this before, but since the subject has come upā€¦ here they are again! :wink:

  1. A ā€œlikeā€ button is good. I see a lot of posts where I have nothing to add but would like to acknowledge that something is cool, informative, etc. IMO this forms the positive reinforcement that TK is looking for, encouraging users to make informative and well thought out posts. I think this is very valuable.
  2. IMO BLF doesnā€™t have the population / activity levels necessary for effective use of upvote-categorization. Subdividing ā€œvotesā€ into funny / informative / flamebait / whatever will just dilute the affect of the system.
  3. Performance: hmm. Now that I step through a ā€œlike systemā€ implementation in my mind I see that this is more complex than my knee-jerk reaction lead me to believe. I wonder how other forum engines do it. Iā€™d love to be able to have the like button active forever. I often run into old posts which Iā€™d like to hit ā€œlikeā€ on.
  4. Downvoting is bad. Sometimes users get ganged up on, both elsewhere and here. Being able to automatically hide a post or having any public visibility on downvotes encourages downvote-bullying.
  5. A ā€œReport!ā€ button can be a workable alternative to downvoting, although Iā€™m not certain that we have a genuine need for it. If a user is causing a problem eventually someone will mention it to SBā€¦ and since SBā€™s the only moderator a report button which was as easy to use as the SPAM button would probably be a burden. One alternative might be a ā€œReport!ā€ button which basically lead to a contact form and required a brief summary of the type of problem. Again, I just donā€™t feel that we have enough bad behavior to merit this sort of thing.

Those are good points. I had considered the downsides of showing downvotes, since that turns trolling into a quantifiable game. However, visibly-quantified upvotes could be a problem too. Even slashdot caps the range at ā€“1 to 5, unlike reddit and digg and facebook. Total opaqueness, or maybe a visible range of 0 to 1 or 0 to 2, might be a preferable approach.

The score could be omitted entirely, or be displayed as merely a smiley if the total is at or above a given level. Users could perhaps see the score for their own above-zero posts (and only their own), or maybe just see a total non-negative karma value for everything they have ever posted. This would still give positive feedback, like a food pellet to let them know they did the dance correctly, but maybe avoid some of the potential downsides.

I have doubts about the value of a lifetime karma score though, since it would mostly just correlate with total posts. It might be more useful as average karma per 100 posts, or simply not shown.

The idea is to ignore (or even hide) bad behavior while rewarding good behavior. And provide some admin-level feedback to show when problems are happening.

Iā€™m definitely onboard with this part.

Thanks for the discussion. I donā€™t have any answers, just ideas. Itā€™s good to hear what others think, especially when they shoot my ideas full of holes.

Iā€™ve often wanted a ā€˜likeā€™ button too, but donā€™t want to cause problems with people competing for the highest score. And hopefully without the problem where unfair and divisive posts get ā€˜likesā€™ simply due to causing drama. (more info on this problem)

Avoiding competition could be accomplished with silent voting, making the score private. Maybe only indicate a single level of liked-ness by adding a smiley to the post metadata if the score is above, perhaps, 10. And maybe the post author could see the actual score, but only if itā€™s above zero.

Discouraging divisive posts might be feasible by allowing downvotes (cancel out upvotes from the ā€œother sideā€). A post could have a hundred upvotes and a hundred downvotes, and would appear as if nobody cared at all. Except of course the admin would potentially be able to see this and use it as a sign of trouble.

Or there could be a totally separate type of downvote, a ā€œthis person is behaving badlyā€ button. If someone gets too many of these votes in a given amount of time, or if a thread gets a lot of these, it would indicate that some sort of action might be appropriate.

Or maybe BLF simply isnā€™t big enough to need this sort of thing, and I just enjoy social architecture puzzles too much. :slight_smile:

Iā€™m perfectly ok with SB as the sole arbiter with no buttons. Iā€™m leery of a disconnect between a button and the reason for pressing it. Even if misunderstood, a posted response contains some effort at communication from which something can be learned. Some canā€™t learn or wonā€™t try and Iā€™d prefer them posting where that lack shows rather hiding behind a veil of legitimacy. Easier isnā€™t always better. Ok, enough of cynicism, Iā€™m way to serious. How about a dunking machine? Enough negative hits and you get splashed without being banned or with positive ones get a brass ring/star in either case you donā€™t see it coming and it doesnā€™t last beyond your latest session.

:smiley: thanks RBD

I do like the idea of a thanks button, but i found it becomes about getting more thanks, a numbers game, so probably better to avoid it
I do wish we had a report post button, SB has mentioned many times not to use the spam button as a report button so a separate let SB know about this post would be a useful addition

+1

+2 :smiley:

+3.999999 O:-)

Iā€™m probably over-complicating things again. Iā€™m getting the feeling that Iā€™m designing some sort of handlebar heating mesh, powered by dynamos attached to the wheels, to keep my hands warm during cold winter bike rides. Maybe it could even use body heat, transferred via tubes with one-way valves from the torso to the fingers and back, pumped by the sheer motion of activity. That way it could work for joggers too. Finally, a way to avoid frozen fingers during winter activities!

And then someone comes along and says, ā€œWear gloves, dummy.ā€

And finally the bumbling fool is enlightened.

But usually there is no passing sage, so I spend life dancing around good ideas without ever seeing the gloves.

Perhaps the answers would be more clear if I got a good nightā€™s sleep, but I just canā€™t seem to get the calibration quite right on my spring-and-pulley configurable night-time horizontal body-suspension system.

Keep it up TK, Iā€™m a big Rueben Goldberg fan.

I find Bort thinks several steps ahead and most people think he behaves like your explanation then wonder why the next step burned them (while Bort shakes his head). Systems thinking is awesome, but sometimes we miss the obvious while 99% of the time we do better then we would otherwise.

+1.1 :wink:

And I keep thinking well behind the curve. :D ;) O:-)
.

Good points (excuse the pun :stuck_out_tongue: ) thus far everybody. Thanks for the input!

Iā€™m not sure where this fits into the discussion, but I remember when I first implemented the spam button here on BLF I had the userā€™s cumulative spam score visible, only to the user if memory serves me correctly. But since some users inevitably misused the spam button to try to remove / report controversial posts or even hit it accidentally, from time to time users would see they had a spam point or two. Their points would eventually be erased automatically, but even so my PM inbox was usually flooded with requests to reset their spam score, and some even wanted me to backtrace who was responsible. As soon as I hid the spam score completely from everyone, there have been no more issues.

Greetings SB,

Nice amount of progress youā€™ve made. The spam thing and even an offensive button can be as troublesome as they are helpful. I see a fairly equal lists of pros and cons. The previous spam button asked you to verify so it seems it was hard to mark someone as a spammer unintentionally. I hit it by accident several times but always hit cancel when it asked me to verify and I assume that made it like it never happened. People using it intentionally for the wrong reason creates unnecessary work for you. Iā€™ll throw in my two bits anyway but know that Iā€™m comfortable with whatever you decide.

What about a simple report button followed by a category selection?

My ideal report button would follow with choices like this:

  • Offensive (this one is tricky because what offends people varies greatly)
  • Spam
  • Wrong Forum category
  • I hit the button by accident

Just a few thoughts. I know the offensive one can create a lot of material to review. Should profanity have its own selection or just lump it in with offensive? Iā€™ve had threads I started where someone posted something that included profanity. Since it was a thread I started I simply sent the user a PM saying I appreciated their enthusiasm but would they mind removing the profanity. Worked out fine. My 10 year old likes to read over my shoulder sometimes and I want to feel safe with him doing so. Anyway I just wanted to add my thoughts. I donā€™t object to a helpful button either. If it ends up a contest to see who can be the most helpful well I guess Iā€™m just ok with that. :wink:

Edit: if anything like a helpful button were initiated I like what TK said about it being limited to say the last 100 posts or so or maybe the slate gets wiped clean every six months or something. Whatever you do just donā€™t add a ā€œtoo long-windedā€ selection or Iā€™m toast!

Hope with favor my words youā€™ll anoint
Without bending your nose out of joint
All Iā€™m trying to say
I wish there was a way
To possess an unbiased viewpoint

Iā€™ll say it againā€” the most important next feature should be a ā€œJackā€™s Limericksā€ page. Make it obligatory reading for all new users before they can post. :smiley:

Indeed, there should be a collection page of them

We should have a collection page of the important posts, probably starting with CRXā€™s page but covering things like beginning in flashlightism and so on, in an easy to find dedicated place