Any commercial flashlights using the U3 emitter?

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Woody
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Any commercial flashlights using the U3 emitter?

Just wondering – I don’t recall seeing any.

Tom E
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 Still haven't seen any. I would think it makes all U2 lights obsolete now - I'm holding off buying any U2 lights. The T6 of course has advantages for the color tint availability. All those new Crelants for example with a U2 -- obsolete in my opinion.

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Tom E wrote:

 Still haven’t seen any. I would think it makes all U2 lights obsolete now – I’m holding off buying any U2 lights. The T6 of course has advantages for the color tint availability. All those new Crelants for example with a U2 — obsolete in my opinion.

Most off the shelf flashlights are not driven to the max, so potential gains are likely to be minimal between U2 and U3. I really don’t how it makes any obsolete. In fact I’m quite happy with some of my XR-E equipped lights.

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Chicken Drumstick wrote:
Tom E wrote:

 Still haven't seen any. I would think it makes all U2 lights obsolete now - I'm holding off buying any U2 lights. The T6 of course has advantages for the color tint availability. All those new Crelants for example with a U2 -- obsolete in my opinion.

Most off the shelf flashlights are not driven to the max, so potential gains are likely to be minimal between U2 and U3. I really don't how it makes any obsolete. In fact I'm quite happy with some of my XR-E equipped lights.

 Nothing wrong with XR-E's, etc. I'm saying the U2 seems to be obsolete now, only the U2. Most other CREE's have their own specialized purpose (throw, color tint, etc.). If I were to buy a light today with a U2, the U3 seems to be a direct replacement, and according to the CREE specs, the U3 will be brighter than the U2 through all amp ranges. So why should I buy a U2 when they could be making the light with a U3 at the same cost? Unless I want a less bright light, but if that was the case, why not run a U3 at lower amps and get more battery life for the same level brightness? Or am I mis-understanding something here...

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I still think obsolete is a little strong. I’d happily still have a 2012 Camaro/Mustang, even knowing a 2013 supersedes them. Doesn’t mean the older model doesn’t still kick ass.

mfruit
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Do the U2 and U3 bins cost the same?

The difference in output seems fairly slight though, especially if you have a U2 that’s binned on the high end and the a U3 that’s binned on the low end.

Bin 700mA 1000mA 1500mA 3000mA

U2 300-320 413-440 585-624 975-1040
U3 320-340 440-468 624-663 1040-1105

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Tom E wrote:

Chicken Drumstick wrote:
Tom E wrote:

 Still haven't seen any. I would think it makes all U2 lights obsolete now - I'm holding off buying any U2 lights. The T6 of course has advantages for the color tint availability. All those new Crelants for example with a U2 -- obsolete in my opinion.

Most off the shelf flashlights are not driven to the max, so potential gains are likely to be minimal between U2 and U3. I really don't how it makes any obsolete. In fact I'm quite happy with some of my XR-E equipped lights.

 Nothing wrong with XR-E's, etc. I'm saying the U2 seems to be obsolete now, only the U2. Most other CREE's have their own specialized purpose (throw, color tint, etc.). If I were to buy a light today with a U2, the U3 seems to be a direct replacement, and according to the CREE specs, the U3 will be brighter than the U2 through all amp ranges. So why should I buy a U2 when they could be making the light with a U3 at the same cost? Unless I want a less bright light, but if that was the case, why not run a U3 at lower amps and get more battery life for the same level brightness? Or am I mis-understanding something here...

Why, because it's not enough of a difference to really be worth it, (for most people). You can see the difference between 500 and 800 lumens, but when you get to the tens of lumens, it just boils down to being able to say "I have a U3" instead of a U2. It's the same lumens game that everyone gets into and I'm not saying that is wrong, just not productive, except for the led & flashlight manufacturers. As far as brightness, surface brightness of an XR-E is higher than any XM-L. Always has been. It's all relative and without the rest of the story...

It is just like a new car, new iphone, or new anything, it's what manufacturers count on to keep them going, but it is value for the money? Debatable...

Just my worthless opinion.

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I like your opinion, Old-Lumens.  It makes a lot of sense and I don't think it's worthless.

Sometimes I buy the latest, greatest stuff when I don't really need to.

That's all for now.   8)

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There's a funny post over on the other forum where the seller did a little bait & switch with LED bins. I'll post one of the pics so you don't have to go there.

נֵר־לְרַגְלִ֥י דְבָרֶ֑ךָ וְ֝אֹ֗ור לִנְתִיבָתִֽי   (Psa 119:105)   

mfruit
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leaftye wrote:

He has a point though.  If U3 is available, and at the same cost, why not use it?  There’s good reason to be disappointed when inferior hardware is used for no reason.

That was my question. Are both bins equally available? Are they the same cost?

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mfruit wrote:
leaftye wrote:

He has a point though.  If U3 is available, and at the same cost, why not use it?  There's good reason to be disappointed when inferior hardware is used for no reason.

That was my question. Are both bins equally available? Are they the same cost?

 It's roughly the same cost at Intl-Outdoor, so same price. I would compare it to my old Infinity G35 XS and the new G37 XS - my lease was up on the G35 and I got a G37 for less money down and equal monthly payments. The G37 has more HP, better MPG's. It's just the only choice in my mind - more horse power, more lumens? Hhhmmmm. I gotta problem Laughing.

 Intl-Outdoor (here) has the U2 1A and U2 1B for $8.25, and the U3 1C at $8.50. There is an interesting pattern I didn't realize - Intl-Outdoor, CNQ and FancyFlashlights are all carrying the U3 in 1C only, while they seem to offer the U2 in 1A and 1B. So, there is a color tint categorization to this madness. The 1C color though I believe is better than the 2S originally being offered at Led-Tech.de, which was known for a greenish beamshot.

 Don't get me wrong, I would not go around replacing U2's with U3's, but a T6 to a U3 upgrade for $8.50 is maybe worth it - approximately 130 lumens higher. If I were buying a stock light, I'd rather buy a 930 OTF lumens light than a 800 OTF lumens light for basically the same cost, same battery life.

 

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I would be willing to bet that in the fairly near future, we will be seeing U2s in neutral bin tint, and the T6 will slowly fade away.

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OLumens – Im running a U3 at 3.2 amps same with a T6. The difference
in efficiency or heat generated is a distinguishable difference. And both happen to
be in the same host, same heat-sink qualities. Curious if you noticed the same results?

 


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how would I know the bin of a led?? say the xml led?

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Tom E wrote:

mfruit wrote:
leaftye wrote:

He has a point though.  If U3 is available, and at the same cost, why not use it?  There's good reason to be disappointed when inferior hardware is used for no reason.

That was my question. Are both bins equally available? Are they the same cost?

 It's roughly the same cost at Intl-Outdoor, so same price. I would compare it to my old Infinity G35 XS and the new G37 XS - my lease was up on the G35 and I got a G37 for less money down and equal monthly payments. The G37 has more HP, better MPG's. It's just the only choice in my mind - more horse power, more lumens? Hhhmmmm. I gotta problem Laughing.

 Intl-Outdoor (here) has the U2 1A and U2 1B for $8.25, and the U3 1C at $8.50. There is an interesting pattern I didn't realize - Intl-Outdoor, CNQ and FancyFlashlights are all carrying the U3 in 1C only, while they seem to offer the U2 in 1A and 1B. So, there is a color tint categorization to this madness. The 1C color though I believe is better than the 2S originally being offered at Led-Tech.de, which was known for a greenish beamshot.

 Don't get me wrong, I would not go around replacing U2's with U3's, but a T6 to a U3 upgrade for $8.50 is maybe worth it - approximately 130 lumens higher. If I were buying a stock blight, I'd rather buy a 930 OTF lumens light than a 800 OTF lumens light for basically the same cost, same battery life.

 

Well said Tom,I agree and t6 is probably going to be phased out by manufacturers,because it's a selling point(more lumens,higher efficency)and many want the best emitter you can get.I would love to throw 3 of the u3's in my sky ray king,provided the tint is not green.
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mfruit wrote:
leaftye wrote:

He has a point though.  If U3 is available, and at the same cost, why not use it?  There’s good reason to be disappointed when inferior hardware is used for no reason.

That was my question. Are both bins equally available? Are they the same cost?


That answer will probably vary depending on if you are a person or a large company.

For us enthusiasts there has been ok’ish supply, although still limited and not in stock all the time. But a company like Crelant or other flashlight makers don’t need to buy just a couple of emitters, they’ll be buying in bulk. And also maybe on a monthly or bi-monthly basis, not every week.

So no, maybe the U3 isn’t available in this context or even if it is then due to shipment and payment of bulk orders it might take a couple of months before companies start using them.

Price is also going to be a potential reason. Retailing the emitter has little direct reflection on wholesale bulk order prices. And again we simply don’t know what arrangements flashlight makers may have with their suppliers, e.g. Maybe they ordered 10,000 U2’s to be delivered over a 3 month period. In such a scenario it’d possibly cost them to cancel the order or throw away the U2’s just to upgrade.

And then there are production reasons. I’m sure few torch makers would bulk buy a new emitter without trialling it first.

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MRTdiver wrote:

There’s a funny post over on the other forum where the seller did a little bait & switch with LED bins. I’ll post one of the pics so you don’t have to go there.

The funny is that it’s not necessarily a Q5 in the first place.

Cree bins are 7% or so part. In terms of human perception, 400%-800% is necessary for something to be seen as twice as bright.

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  The 7%, which works out to about 65 lumens, adds up though. T6 1C to U3 1C should be about 130 lumens, while going from a T6 neutral tint to a U3 cool white should be even higher, maybe closer to 200 lumens? Of course a lot more can be done to crank up the brightness, but the emitter is part of the equation.

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Yes, it's part of the equation.  With lights like the HD2010 that are already maxed out on current, there are fewer ways to get more lumens out of it.  One way is a higher bin LED.  Another is getting a lens that actually has an AR coating.  Improved heat sink contact should reduce thermal sag.  Dedome if you want more lux.

It's all about doing a bunch of little things to get a big result.  Or wait a few years for a big jump in LED performance. 

Until 2010, I hadn't bought a new LED light for almost a decade.  The new light was probably an order of magnitude brighter than my old light.  Then this year I bought a few more lights that are several times brighter.  In a five years, I'll probably buy a LED light that makes my XML lights look like candle lanterns.

The low mode should be lower.

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Tom E wrote:

  The 7%, which works out to about 65 lumens, adds up though. T6 1C to U3 1C should be about 130 lumens, while going from a T6 neutral tint to a U3 cool white should be even higher, maybe closer to 200 lumens? Of course a lot more can be done to crank up the brightness, but the emitter is part of the equation.


Fully agree. But I still don’t think it makes any U2 light obsolete Wink
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 Maybe I'm overstating it, but if the 1A and 1B tints for the U3 come through, and volumes become available, the U2 should be effectively replaced, and for those manufacturers that commited to it (Crelant, ThruNite TN30 and TN31, etc.), should be making the switch over soon. So if I was considering an expensive purchase, such as a TN30 or TN31, now is probably not a good time -- I would wait for the U3 version.

 I do need to learn more on the differences between the 1A, 1B, and 1C - think they are all in the cool white range, but what are the advantages/disadvantages. Have to look up that Wiki again with the CREE info. The manufacturers are reluctant to reveal their plans because of selling off existing inventories -- they don't want us to wait.

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I think you are all taking "obsolete" a little too literally.  My interpretation of what he is saying is since the U2 emitter is still only available in CW tint, there is no advantage to using it when a CW U3 is available. The T6, even though 2 generations behind, is still desirable and useful due to the fact that you can get it in nearly any tint you could want. If you are not looking for a neutral or warm tint and want raw output and efficiency, why would anyone buy a U2 when the U3 is available?  Hence, until the U2 is available in a tint other than CW, is has indeed been rendered temporarily obsolete.

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Tom E wrote:
I do need to learn more on the differences between the 1A, 1B, and 1C - think they are all in the cool white range, but what are the advantages/disadvantages. Have to look up that Wiki again with the CREE info.

Yeah, all those are CWs.  Currently my color tastes tells me to stay away from the purple(ish) and green(ish) tint. 

Tint Chart from Wiki.   I like to open it up to the max for better view.

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Tom E wrote:

  The 7%, which works out to about 65 lumens, adds up though. T6 1C to U3 1C should be about 130 lumens, while going from a T6 neutral tint to a U3 cool white should be even higher, maybe closer to 200 lumens? Of course a lot more can be done to crank up the brightness, but the emitter is part of the equation.

Eyes work logarithmically, so 7% is more meaningful than X lumens. 7% is indistinguishable unless you A/B.

I’m not sure why you’re comparing neutral to cw tints.

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Just to clarify, a cool white tint won’t produce more lumens than a neutral if they are the same output bin (XM-L T6 3C vs T6 1A for example).

Tom E- the 1A tint you mentioned has a tint closer to planckian black-body radiator (the 1A tint more realistically emulates visible light that a filament radiates if it could be heated it up to about 6500K)

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DarkSide wrote:
OLumens - Im running a U3 at 3.2 amps same with a T6. The difference in efficiency or heat generated is a distinguishable difference. And both happen to be in the same host, same heat-sink qualities. Curious if you noticed the same results?
I don't have any U3 leds. Don't plan on buying any, till I can get them for $2.50@, just like the T6 leds are now.

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Old-Lumens wrote:

DarkSide wrote:
OLumens - Im running a U3 at 3.2 amps same with a T6. The difference in efficiency or heat generated is a distinguishable difference. And both happen to be in the same host, same heat-sink qualities. Curious if you noticed the same results?
I don't have any U3 leds. Don't plan on buying any, till I can get them for $2.50@, just like the T6 leds are now.

Where are you getting T6 LEDs for $2.50??? Surprised
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mfruit
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Tom E wrote:

  The 7%, which works out to about 65 lumens, adds up though. T6 1C to U3 1C should be about 130 lumens, while going from a T6 neutral tint to a U3 cool white should be even higher, maybe closer to 200 lumens? Of course a lot more can be done to crank up the brightness, but the emitter is part of the equation.

If you’re unlucky, the difference could be much smaller, right? A top T6 is ~975 while a low bin U3 is ~1040 so it could be as little as ~75 lumens.

(Of course, on the other side of the coin, you could be going from ~910 to ~1105. LOL

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scaru wrote:

Aliexpress. 

link? Smile
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