Longer throw without changing the driver !! :) Prototype is done and now it's time for testing.. ( more beam shots)

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scaru
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NZ Shooter wrote:
NightCrawl wrote:

Where do you see more throw? Post number please..

I just went outside with my L2P and a huge lens.. despite the ability of projecting a die image, there was no surprise. Ugly beam with a huge hole in the middle, significantly less light overall and less light in the hotspot. If the light in the hotspot had stayed the same, I would agree with the theory of "more throw" (although it would just be an optical trick, like aspheric throwers, more contrast and so on..). But it didnt.

 

Oh come on NZ, you got to be kidding us. How many times have we said now that these shots are misleading? Just look at the outer parts of the image, where the flashlight doesnt shine.. one is lighter than the other. Different exposure and aperture obviously.

Surely, no matter how bright the beams are, the hotspot would throw further? It's a focused hotspot, and the stock torch is a floodier beam. Would that not dictate longer throw? regardless of brightness?

It definitely would not, I mean a Lumatic 3 dollars AAA light has a focused hotspot and my L2 doesn't. Guess which one throws further?

And as nightcrawl pointed out, the exposure is drastically different. Look at the wall on the edge of the picture. In one it is lit up, and in the other it isn't. That is a sure sign of a different exposure. 

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In other words the needle beam of a laser really gets out there. So I’m guessing his logic here is that maybe the narrower the flashlight beam the more it should logically act like a needle beam laser and really get out there further shining into a concentrated spot than if the same laser had a much wider beam and you could barely see where it was illuminating the same specific object out in the distance.

I’m just trying to imagine what he’s thinking here.

scaru
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Looks like NZ may have finally realized he's wrong. Big Smile If you're so sure of yourself come discuss, prove your points instead of regurgitating what you already said. I know I'm right so I will stay and discuss. 

scaru
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NZ Shooter wrote:
scaru wrote:

Looks like NZ may have finally realized he's wrong. Big Smile If you're so sure of yourself come discuss, prove your points instead of regurgitating what you already said. I know I'm right so I will stay and discuss. 

I think the post right above you hit the nail on the head - as to where I'm coming from

I understand your view point, but unlike politics there is one correct answer. My flashlight with the lens had the same type of beam, laser like. But the difference is both of mine were exposed equally so it showed it was weaker. His camera was trying to make them look the same, so it increased the shutter speed on the second picture. 

scaru
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I certainly understand what you are saying, but science says otherwise. When science proves something wrong, I'm going to side with science. Always. 

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ma_sha1 wrote:
NZ Shooter wrote:

Get bent fella.

You brought up the dam elephant subject. Not me.

How do feel now ???

The pictures just posted fairly conclusivley show you jumped the gun on a conclusion, and were WRONG

What’s making this thread so confusing, not blaming you for it, is that the OP has two sets of experiments.

Set 1. Long EFL magnifier lens or fresnel lens to project spot to the wall near focal point,
that’s where my elephant story for, it does not increase flashlight throw.

Set 2. Sticking a telescope in front of a flashlight. This is a totally different optical system. I am guessing that’s probably what the OP did in his latest 80 feet beam shot.

Telescope works similar to dual aspheric lens set-up, it’ll increase throw, which is dependent on the largest lens, 6” diameter front lens used by the OP? I never said telescope doesn’t work. I made no comments to telescope as it’s not not a flashlight mod, just fun play..

My elephant story has nothing to do with telescope set-up, it’s strictly for applying magnifier glass & fresnel lens in front of flashlight for a mod. My point was illustrated well by Scaru image, it’ll be even more obvious if he increase the distance further.

yes i was using this Celestron 70mm telescope as it is easier to hold while i shoot the picture.
the telescope is about the same length as the build.. around 12”-14” almost the same diameter 3’5 and 4” respectively

have you ever seen or have a telescope before? just in case you didn’t know.. the one that magnify the light( to see the object closer ) it came from the eyepieces not from the telescope itself..
the front of the telescope is almost identical to that 2X magnifying glasses but for sure it’s not a dual aspheric lenses.

it seems we’re forgetting something here.. this is not a mod to the flashlight itself to make it brighter, but as a fun built as to make the flashlight more throwier.
as OL said.. scientifically it will not make it brighter.. but as far as the eyes can see.. it appear to be so.
if it can shoot farther than what i have before.. then that’s what’s matter over here Smile

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

NightCrawl
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I think we also have a problem with the definition of throw.. throw is how far you can still get measure 0.25lux (thats about moonlight). But perceived throw is another story.. its a matter of contrast. A small hotspot will look like more throw than a large one, even if the large one is a brighter by a certain amount.

scaru
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NZ Shooter wrote:
scaru wrote:

NZ Shooter wrote:
scaru wrote:

Looks like NZ may have finally realized he's wrong. Big Smile If you're so sure of yourself come discuss, prove your points instead of regurgitating what you already said. I know I'm right so I will stay and discuss. 

I think the post right above you hit the nail on the head - as to where I'm coming from

I understand your view point, but unlike politics there is one correct answer. My flashlight with the lens had the same type of beam, laser like. But the difference is both of mine were exposed equally so it showed it was weaker. His camera was trying to make them look the same, so it increased the shutter speed on the second picture. 

So if the beamshots were taken at say 100metres, you think the stock torch would have a nice beam of light out there, and the dimmer/tigher beam would have faded?

Going off his shots I would say neither could do 100 meters. Tomorrow night I'll do some longer range beamshots comparing lensed to stock. 

scaru
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NZ Shooter wrote:
DayLighter wrote:
it seems we're forgetting something here.. this is not a mod to the flashlight itself to make it brighter, but as a fun built as to make the flashlight more throwier. as OL said.. scientifically it will not make it brighter.. but as far as the eyes can see.. it appear to be so. if it can shoot farther than what i have before.. then that's what's matter over here :)
This is exactly the basis of my argument. I never said the mod was brighter - the total opposite - you wanted throw. You got a tighter beam - I reackon more throw.

A tighter beam at short distances, but at longer distances it will diverge. 

NightCrawl
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Tighter beam doesnt mean more throw.. and with a magnifying glass, you cant increase throw.

If you want to increase throw, dedome your XMLs. Wink

scaru
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NightCrawl wrote:

Tighter beam doesnt mean more throw.. and with a magnifying glass, you cant increase throw.

If you want to increase throw, dedome your XMLs. Wink

And we know that does increase throw. 

scaru
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In this case? The unmodified would throw better. 

NightCrawl
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You cant really compare that. You can make a tighter beam with a lot of utilities, even by blocking 90% of the light. Would that be a better thrower then?

scaru
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NZ Shooter wrote:
NightCrawl wrote:

You cant really compare that. You can make a tighter beam with a lot of utilities, even by blocking 90% of the light. Would that be a better thrower then?

Well no. But we all know a deep reflector, focusing a single LED, will out throw the same LED in a shallow reflector. The deep one gathering and focusing the light.

Yes, but that is not what is happening here. 

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DayLighter wrote:
if you don’t have trustfire WF 502B.. use any flood light even those that using AA or AAA batteries to see it how much farther it can shoot.

I am wondering if the difference that yours vs. scaru’s experiment difference could be explained by the choice of flashlight used?

AA, AAA or even 502B has such small reflector, majority of the light escape as spill, there’s hardy any throw to begin with.

Scaru’s light has bigger reflector, which is more likely to project more light into parallel beam, therefore ,
fits into my optical explanation as it assumed starting point is a flashlight with parallel beam, i.e.. a thrower to begin with.

If a flashlight fails to project majority of the light into parallel beam, such as AA & AAA lights, or a flooder or a mule w/o reflector, adding a big lens in front to increase “throw” may not give people the ability to use the same technique to improve a thrower into further throw.

I believe that It is improving of a thrower that’s more interesting to most people,
improving a flooder to throw better but not able to improve a real thrower any further is not of real interest to most people, at least not to me.

I would rather see a real thrower, like TN31, K40, or VPT, SR90, SR95, SR95 UT etc. to be put onto this test & let it stretch their legs & go out to over 500 feet.

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Actually its not depth that matters but diameter. Silly

Yes, more light in the hotspot -> more throw. But size doesnt really matter in that case.

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ma_sha1 wrote:
DayLighter wrote:
if you don’t have trustfire WF 502B.. use any flood light even those that using AA or AAA batteries to see it how much farther it can shoot.

I am wondering if the difference that yours vs. scaru’s experiment difference could be explained by the choice of flashlight used?

AA, AAA or even 502B has such small reflector, majority of the light escape as spill, there’s hardy any throw to begin with.

Scaru’s light has bigger reflector, which is more likely to project more light into parallel beam, therefore ,
fits into my optical explanation as it assumed starting point is a flashlight with parallel beam, i.e.. a thrower to begin with.

If a flashlight fails to project majority of the light into parallel beam, such as AA & AAA lights, or a flooder or a mule w/o reflector, adding a big lens in front to increase “throw” may not give people the ability to use the same technique to improve a thrower into further throw.

I believe that It is improving of a thrower that’s more interesting to most people,
improving a flooder to throw better but not able to improve a real thrower any further is not of real interest to most people, at least not to me.

I would rather see a real thrower, like TN31, K40, or VPT, SR90, SR95, SR95 UT etc. to be put onto this test & let it stretch their legs & go out to over 500 feet.


in order to use those light.. the bigger the lens is needed..
like i said this experiment is using flooder light and turn it into high end thrower.
beside.. if TN31 can throw far already..how far can the eyes see?

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

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DayLighter wrote:
if TN31 can throw far already..how far can the eyes see?

You’ll be surprised, this is my 16 million cp moon blaster illuminate a target at 0.9 mile, I can see very well with naked eyes. :bigsmile:

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From Flashlight Wiki - ANSI-NEMA FL-1

Peak Beam Intensity

Light intensity in candela (cd) at the brightest part of the beam. A lux reading in the brightest portion of the beam is taken at some distance (2m, 10m, or 30m) with the light on its brightest mode and tightest focus at some time between 30 and 120 seconds of turning the light on. The lux reading is multiplied by the square of the distance in meters to get candela. Regardless of the distance at which the reading is taken, you should end up with the same value in candela, therefore the measurement is independent of distance. A lux reading taken at 1 meter distance is the same as candela (since 1 squared is 1).

Beam Distance

The distance in meters at which the flashlight produces a light intensity of 0.25 lux. This is not very bright, about equal to a full moon. This distance is not actually measured. Instead the value is calculated by taking the peak beam intensity measured above, dividing by 0.25 lux, and taking the square root of the result. For example, the Quark AA has a peak beam intensity of 1,622 cd. Divide this by 0.25 to get 6,488. Now take the square root to get 80.55. This agrees with the value on the packaging, which is rounded to 81 meters.

 

Also, this video might help

 

If the light looks brighter to you, then it works for you. That is the real answer, it's just not the scientific answer. Anything that changes the path of or disturbes the path of a beam of light will alter and lessen the intensity of that light, so no optic or reflector makes the led intensity better, it just directs light and some light loss happens when that redirection takes place.

My PayPal address: oldlumens (insert the @ sign here) gmail.com

My YouTube Flashlight Video Channel

The BLF Modding Links Thread 

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/1374/jQ2wdL.jpg

 

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alright then.. this is one last picture before i go to bed.. the building that i shine is about roughly about 300 feet away if not more
i don’t bother to take before shot as it is irrelevant, as Trustfire WF 502b will never reach the distance over 100’
here’s the beam shot using the Trustfire wf 502B connected to the same Celestron 70mm telescope

Photobucket
hopefully it’ll put the theory to the rest that it can and capable throwing very far with this mod.

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

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You are basically using two things, 1. your mod (single fresnel lense) and 2. telescope.

ALL of your outdoor beamshots are taken with the telescope. That’s NOT the fresnel lense mod, which was what this thread was about in the beginning. The telescope is much more properly designed complex system.

How can you expect people not to be confused when there’s all sort of variations thrown all around?

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Old-Lumens wrote:

What you are not realizing is that there are two threads here. One thread says “with my eyes it looks brighter” The answer is Yes it looks brighter, so if that is all you want, you are completely happy.

The other side is fact and proven science. There is NO optic that will make More Light from LED. It is Not Possible. Therefore, the scientific part says, even though your eyes deceive you, there is not as much luminance by adding optics in the path of the led.

For those of you who don’t give a rats butt about science and only live by your senses, be happy! The light is brighter! For those of you who live to dispute by science, congratulations, you can prove the truth, But be forewarned, laymen are a Much Larger part of the population and we don’t really want to accept something that says our eyes, ears or nose deceives us. If it looks like light, sounds like light and smells like light, it must be light.

Simply said ignorance is bliss :bigsmile:

Society is like a pot full of nuts and bolts, finest pieces always end up on the bottom...

 

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so we all gonna go grab a 500$ telescope to make a 50$ SRK into a monster thrower.

weird i just get addicted to flashlight like in a blink of an eye.

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NZ Shooter wrote:
Thank god for that beamshot. I have been trying to get my point across. Now I hope that everyone went who mental at me, sees that. Yes, I was going mental too. . . but this is why. It does enhance throw with the telescope lens.

Nobody argued if telescope works or not, it does, but telescope lens does not equal a telescope in the same way the elephant tail does not equal to an elephant.

Telescope use paired lenses to expand or reduce a beam but a parallel beam remains parallel.
If you take just the front lens, it will no longer work as a telescope.

The only way to make a single lens work at increasing throw is to place led at the focal point of the lens, the lens will focus diverging light coming from the led into parallel beam & project a die image on the wall ,i.e. the principle of Aspherical flashlight mod that many have tired before. To fit it into a flashlight, a very short EFL lens is used, i.e. Aspherical lens. Extremely short EFL Fresnel lens would also work which have been shown by others on CPF that it works similar to aspheric lens just 30-40% less efficient.

Using a single long EFL lens (magnifier glass & typical fresnel lens) & place it in front of the flashlight (at a distance not being its EFL) does just the opposite, it focus a parallel beam back to a spot at only a fixed distance, the focal point. it’ll be extremely bright at or near the focal point, but such beam does not illuminate as far as parallel beam, it diverges after the focal point so the beam becomes broader & less intense as the distance increases.

If OP takes an 8 inch EFL lens & place it 8 inch in front of led flashlight, it’ll also work the same way as aspherical flashlight, focusing the spill part (the diverging beam from led that did not hit the reflector) into parallel beam & make it throw, but that’s not a practical mod, its just a unpractical & less efficient way way of making an aspherical flashlight.

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ma_sha1 wrote:
NZ Shooter wrote:
Thank god for that beamshot. I have been trying to get my point across. Now I hope that everyone went who mental at me, sees that. Yes, I was going mental too. . . but this is why. It does enhance throw with the telescope lens.

Nobody argued if telescope works or not, it does, but telescope lens does not equal a telescope in the same way the elephant tail does not equal to an elephant.

Telescope use paired lenses to expand or reduce a beam but a parallel beam remains parallel.
If you take just the front lens, it will no longer work as a telescope.

The only way to make a single lens work at increasing throw is to place led at the focal point of the lens, the lens will focus diverging light coming from the led into parallel beam & project a die image on the wall ,i.e. the principle of Aspherical flashlight mod that many have tired before. To fit it into a flashlight, a very short EFL lens is used, i.e. Aspherical lens. Extremely short EFL Fresnel lens would also work which have been shown by others on CPF that it works similar to aspheric lens just 30-40% less efficient.

Using a single long EFL lens (magnifier glass & typical fresnel lens) & place it in front of the flashlight (at a distance not being its EFL) does just the opposite, it focus a parallel beam back to a spot at only a fixed distance, the focal point. it’ll be extremely bright at or near the focal point, but such beam does not illuminate as far as parallel beam, it diverges after the focal point so the beam becomes broader & less intense as the distance increases.

If OP takes an 8 inch EFL lens & place it 8 inch in front of led flashlight, it’ll also work the same way as aspherical flashlight, focusing the spill part (the diverging beam from led that did not hit the reflector) into parallel beam & make it throw, but that’s not a practical mod, its just a unpractical & less efficient way way of making an aspherical flashlight.

Now it makes sense. Thanks!

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attitude wrote:
so we all gonna go grab a 500$ telescope to make a 50$ SRK into a monster thrower.

actually i paid $40 for the telescope adn it doesn’t really work well with multiple LEDs.. although it works extremely well with small flashlight such as Trustfire WF-502B

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scaru
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Well, tonight I will go out with what this thread was about originally (a fresnel lens) and do some longer range beamshots. 

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ma_sha1 wrote:
NZ Shooter wrote:
Thank god for that beamshot. I have been trying to get my point across. Now I hope that everyone went who mental at me, sees that. Yes, I was going mental too. . . but this is why. It does enhance throw with the telescope lens.

Nobody argued if telescope works or not, it does, but telescope lens does not equal a telescope in the same way the elephant tail does not equal to an elephant.

Telescope use paired lenses to expand or reduce a beam but a parallel beam remains parallel.
If you take just the front lens, it will no longer work as a telescope.

The only way to make a single lens work at increasing throw is to place led at the focal point of the lens, the lens will focus diverging light coming from the led into parallel beam & project a die image on the wall ,i.e. the principle of Aspherical flashlight mod that many have tired before. To fit it into a flashlight, a very short EFL lens is used, i.e. Aspherical lens. Extremely short EFL Fresnel lens would also work which have been shown by others on CPF that it works similar to aspheric lens just 30-40% less efficient.

Using a single long EFL lens (magnifier glass & typical fresnel lens) & place it in front of the flashlight (at a distance not being its EFL) does just the opposite, it focus a parallel beam back to a spot at only a fixed distance, the focal point. it’ll be extremely bright at or near the focal point, but such beam does not illuminate as far as parallel beam, it diverges after the focal point so the beam becomes broader & less intense as the distance increases.

If OP takes an 8 inch EFL lens & place it 8 inch in front of led flashlight, it’ll also work the same way as aspherical flashlight, focusing the spill part (the diverging beam from led that did not hit the reflector) into parallel beam & make it throw, but that’s not a practical mod, its just a unpractical & less efficient way way of making an aspherical flashlight.

give it up already.. which part that doesn’t makes you happy? first you doubt it if it brighter than it is.. so i shown you the picture using the meter on the wall..
second ,you want to see outside picture to see if it can actually throw.. and i shown that too.
third, you are forgettting what all this mod in this forum is all about..is all about fun building something out of ordinary flashlight.
wether if it is conventional or not.. nor if it practical or not, it really doesn’t matter.
i’m simply trying to show how cool is it to turn some cheap flashlight into some “somewhat monster” thrower
there’s no need to bring that elephant bull crap into the this idea, and you’re talking about telescope as if you have one, if you do.. show some picture of it ( telescope, flashlight and banana in the same spot LOL
i’m just hoping somebody will takes this idea into consideration and challenge themselves to build it better.
although i found out from scaru post.. somebody actually did it already in CPF, even his is not practical.. but so what? it’s fun building something.
to bring in the elephant story, it’s like the same as blind leading blind.. unless you do the same exactly what i’m doing .. using exactly the same equipments..you have no right to bash and rain on others parade.
just take it with a grain of salt.. it is simply works!

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

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good experiments Daylighter, I for one wasnt interested in your first experiments with that tube thing, only the telescope one, which I have often wondered about that myself. (ok not so often, but i have wondered) The telescope definitely does increase the throw of your 502b. No math on paper in the world can disprove that.

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Tecmo wrote:
So the C8 went from 19kcd to 74 kcd I think. Pretty cool really. Now it can outthrow a 7g9. Same concept as aspherics but multi-flashlight use and bulky?

yes.. that’s exactly what i’m trying to do Smile
making decent small flashlights into an awesome thrower Smile

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

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