Longer throw without changing the driver !! :) Prototype is done and now it's time for testing.. ( more beam shots)

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DayLighter
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Blinders wrote:
good experiments Daylighter, I for one wasnt interested in your first experiments with that tube thing, only the telescope one, which I have often wondered about that myself. (ok not so often, but i have wondered) The telescope definitely does increase the throw of your 502b. No math on paper in the world can disprove that.

when first time i stuck that Ultrafire WF 502B into that flashlight.. suddenly i have that “eureka” moment .. why didn’t i think of that kind of moment.
so i’m trying to build it with bigger tube, so i can accommodate more flashlights, and see if it can be use into something fun
as you know, with this hobby.. we always want something brighter.. throw longer than any flashlights we’d owned but unfortunately our significant others not always too supportive about spending more hard earned $$$ for more flashlights.
and yet.. we’re still looking for a way to satisfy our “lumenvy” lust and who doesn’t want a very bright light with Kmart prices? Big Smile
the built was crude.. but+* it’s the idea *+that i’m hoping for someone who have the tools, resources and skills to build a better one and then share it with the rest of us.
if we can pay around $12 for a flashlight that can out throw Thrunite TN31 someday.. who wouldn’t want to have one?

unfortunately some people start taking things too seriously, instead take a look at the idea and say.. hey, that’s not bad.. let me try build it for my lights too.
so for those people that agree with me on this idea.. here’s to you Beer Smile

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

Steve_the_Chief
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DayLighter,

nobody in this thread didn't believe you when you said that your telescope increased the throw of your flashlight. I don't have a telescope, but I don't need one to know that it works.

The cause for all this confusion was that you basically stated in your first post that a fresnel lens turns a floodlight into a monster thrower, and when people doubted that (and even tried to explain it), you posted beamshots of your telescope approach, and that's a completely different situation.

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The build and idea is cool but I think he just wants to set the facts straight. Here is what I understand (correct me if I am wrong ma_sha1)

What you have achieved: increasing the focus at a short distance while sacrificing some loss in lumens and possible loss in throw too (depending on how floody/throwy the light was in the first place).

The mods you build neither increase brightness or throw (depending on light, as mentioned before). It focuses the beam at a set point but past that point, the beam will start dispersing because the beams coming out of your device are no longer parallel but rather they are converging (and after the focus, diverging).

To test brightness, you can do a ceiling bounce test.

To test throw, post pictures of beam shots with your mods, not the telescope. Scaru has already done that and shown that it does not increase throw with his lights.

In the end though, you made your floody lights more usable to you by focusing the light which is cool. But I think most people just want to set the fact straights so this mod isn’t misinterpreted as some new lumen enhancing, monster thrower discovery.

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scaru wrote:

Well, tonight I will go out with what this thread was about originally (a fresnel lens) and do some longer range beamshots. 


just do yourself a favor, use the cheapest flood flashlights that you owned, as i found out using thrower will not do you any good, but nevertheless.. the hotspot will appear to be brighter within 30’-50’
if you want to throw as far as my experiment ( 300’ +), you gonna need another concave glass behind that magnifying glass.
have fun..

ps: you don’t really have to wait until dark, if you have one of those cheap flood light, the kind that won’t cast a hotspot past 20 feet away something like one of these lights Tmart AAA batteries flashlights will be perfect for this experiment.

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

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Steve_the_Chief wrote:

DayLighter,

nobody in this thread didn’t believe you when you said that your telescope increased the throw of your flashlight. I don’t have a telescope, but I don’t need one to know that it works.

The cause for all this confusion was that you basically stated in your first post that a fresnel lens turns a floodlight into a monster thrower, and when people doubted that (and even tried to explain it), you posted beamshots of your telescope approach, and that’s a completely different situation.


well.. the idea of my creation was based on that telescope. i was merely trying to build it bigger so i can accomodate more flashlights.
the built was not perfect, its the idea what i’m selling,hence the prototype.. some people just didn’t pay attention to that.
they’re hoping to see well built finished product that can throw monster output.
common sense will tell you.. you can’t really turn any flashlight that worth less than $15 into HIDs like thrower.
However.. it can turn those cheap flood lights into throwers or at least throw farther than it normally could.
and i’ll stand by that statement.
simply get a magnifying glass and test it yourself.. i’m using 2X magnifying glass that i bought from dollar store. Big Smile

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DayLighter wrote:
scaru wrote:

Well, tonight I will go out with what this thread was about originally (a fresnel lens) and do some longer range beamshots. 

just do yourself a favor, use the cheapest flood flashlights that you owned, as i found out using thrower will not do you any good, but nevertheless.. the hotspot will appear to be brighter within 30'-50' if you want to throw as far as my experiment ( 300' +), you gonna need another concave glass behind that magnifying glass. have fun.. ps: you don't really have to wait until dark, if you have one of those cheap flood light, the kind that won't cast a hotspot past 20 feet away something like one of these lights "Tmart AAA batteries flashlights":http://www.tmart.com/Flashlights/Power--AAA-Battery/ will be perfect for this experiment.

Actually, I am going to change it up. I will go take beamshots at the same location I did for my 300 yard shots. I will be using a 8.5*11 inch fresnel lense along with a Stanley Fatmax XM-L. I am doing it this way so we can have long range shots, which this light is capable of stock; and it will clearly demonstrate that there is less throw. 

Adding a concave optic before it is not part of the expirement, as that is not what I am saying will not work. I acknowledge that will work, but a simple fresnel lense will not increase throw. I am positive of that. 

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DayLighter wrote:
simply get a magnifying glass and test it yourself.. i'm using 2X magnifying glass that i bought from dollar store. :D

Of course I have been there and done that. The problem is, if you want the beam to stay focused you constantly have to adjust the focal length depending on the distance of the target you want to illuminate. And that's not very convenient.

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scaru wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
scaru wrote:

Well, tonight I will go out with what this thread was about originally (a fresnel lens) and do some longer range beamshots. 

just do yourself a favor, use the cheapest flood flashlights that you owned, as i found out using thrower will not do you any good, but nevertheless.. the hotspot will appear to be brighter within 30’-50’ if you want to throw as far as my experiment ( 300’ +), you gonna need another concave glass behind that magnifying glass. have fun.. ps: you don’t really have to wait until dark, if you have one of those cheap flood light, the kind that won’t cast a hotspot past 20 feet away something like one of these lights Tmart AAA batteries flashlights will be perfect for this experiment.

Actually, I am going to change it up. I will go take beamshots at the same location I did for my 300 yard shots. I will be using a 8.5*11 inch fresnel lense along with a Stanley Fatmax XM-L. I am doing it this way so we can have long range shots, which this light is capable of stock; and it will clearly demonstrate that there is less throw. 

Adding a concave optic before it is not part of the expirement, as that is not what I am saying will not work. I acknowledge that will work, but a simple fresnel lense will not increase throw. I am positive of that. 

not trying to beat a dead horse here, sorry. But I think what Daylighter is saying, is that you have to use a flashlight that stock DOESNT throw far. Using a light that you says already throws far is pointless and not what what put forth in the OP. If its a stick light that DOESNT throw far already, and you use the Lens, hes saying it will increase the throw. What youre proposing will not be sufficient to prove anything in this regard.

So instead of using a torch that has throw, use one thats all flood no throw. THEN perform your test with the lens and take beamshots. Either way, I apreciate you taking the time to test this theory, i know taking beamshots is somewhat difficult and time consuming.

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scaru wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
scaru wrote:

Well, tonight I will go out with what this thread was about originally (a fresnel lens) and do some longer range beamshots. 

just do yourself a favor, use the cheapest flood flashlights that you owned, as i found out using thrower will not do you any good, but nevertheless.. the hotspot will appear to be brighter within 30’-50’ if you want to throw as far as my experiment ( 300’ +), you gonna need another concave glass behind that magnifying glass. have fun.. ps: you don’t really have to wait until dark, if you have one of those cheap flood light, the kind that won’t cast a hotspot past 20 feet away something like one of these lights Tmart AAA batteries flashlights will be perfect for this experiment.

Actually, I am going to change it up. I will go take beamshots at the same location I did for my 300 yard shots. I will be using a 8.5*11 inch fresnel lense along with a Stanley Fatmax XM-L. I am doing it this way so we can have long range shots, which this light is capable of stock; and it will clearly demonstrate that there is less throw. 

Adding a concave optic before it is not part of the expirement, as that is not what I am saying will not work. I acknowledge that will work, but a simple fresnel lense will not increase throw. I am positive of that. 


i still stand by my statement, question is.. how far of a throw are you expecting? all i’m saying is.. all the light that i’m testing is capable throwing farther than the light itself capable of.
if you’re expecting that Trustfire WF 502B will defeat TN31 or HIDs kind of beam.. you’re in for dissapointment..
but if you compare that 502b with something decent like C8.. i’ll stand on my statement it can certaintly beat it.
like i said.. this is a prototype, not a perfect built.. i’m selling* my idea *not my built.
my idea is based on using the telescope kind of device to throw the light more forward. but you guys acted as this is already the final build.
like i said it before and i’ll say it again untill somebody understand this… this is an IDEA that i’m selling, as the prototype will work or not to your liking is another story.
i’m just hoping someone will take this idea and step up and make it a better one, let’s end this for argument sake .. it simply works!
if the final shot of over 300’ using a cheap Trustfire Wf 502B can’t convince you.. then i have nothing else to say :~

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A telescope will certainly work, we never said it wouldn't... Using one lens will not. But ok, I will take some using my triple XM-L drop in. Which is all flood. 

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scaru wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
scaru wrote:

Well, tonight I will go out with what this thread was about originally (a fresnel lens) and do some longer range beamshots. 

just do yourself a favor, use the cheapest flood flashlights that you owned, as i found out using thrower will not do you any good, but nevertheless.. the hotspot will appear to be brighter within 30’-50’ if you want to throw as far as my experiment ( 300’ +), you gonna need another concave glass behind that magnifying glass. have fun.. ps: you don’t really have to wait until dark, if you have one of those cheap flood light, the kind that won’t cast a hotspot past 20 feet away something like one of these lights Tmart AAA batteries flashlights will be perfect for this experiment.

Actually, I am going to change it up. I will go take beamshots at the same location I did for my 300 yard shots. I will be using a 8.5*11 inch fresnel lense along with a Stanley Fatmax XM-L. I am doing it this way so we can have long range shots, which this light is capable of stock; and it will clearly demonstrate that there is less throw. 

Adding a concave optic before it is not part of the expirement, as that is not what I am saying will not work. I acknowledge that will work, but a simple fresnel lense will not increase throw. I am positive of that. 


either you don’t get it or you refused to accept or you maybe have set the limit too high on this experiment.
like i have said before.. using light which have bigger output than that i’m using, beat the purpose of this experiment..
maybe you’re expecting monster throw like HIDs hotspot to satisfy your finding.. instead doing a simple light test using the cheapest kind of light to see if my idea works or not.
as far as anybody else want to take up the challenge.. i’m still standing on my statement, that using this mod, you can throw farther than you cheap small flashlight can throw.
as far as the brightness in lumens? only some people who has the sphere can tell.. anyone with the sphere want to take this challenge? Smile

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DayLighter wrote:
either you don't get it or you refused to accept or you maybe have set the limit too high on this experiment. like i have said before.. using light which have bigger output than that i'm using, beat the purpose of this experiment.. maybe you're expecting monster throw like HIDs hotspot to satisfy your finding.. instead doing a simple light test using the cheapest kind of light to see if my idea works or not. as far as anybody else want to take up the challenge.. i'm still standing on my statement, that using this mod, you can throw farther than you cheap small flashlight can throw. as far as the brightness in lumens? only some people who has the sphere can tell.. anyone with the sphere want to take this challenge? :)

Ok, I will use a TK35 clone with out the reflector. This means there will be absolutely no optics...

While I do not have a sphere, I can test the output (lumen wise) by placing it in a room and measuring the amount of light. I will do that now. 

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Ok, without the lens it measured 438 lux and with the lense 299. I'm not sure why I needed to prove this as this is basic science... Nothing is 100% inefficient. 

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I think you meant efficient….. Silly

Did you leave the lens out too?

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gords1001 wrote:
I think you meant efficient..... Silly Did you leave the lens out too?

Oops, I fixed it. Wink In this case I left the lens in as it does not matter. It simply compares lens to no lens. 

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Goodness MEN why all the dispute……You all saw each others points of view but argued over separate topics…..

Single asperic lense in front of REFLECTORED flashlight = no worky…..

Double lenses in front of REFLECTORED flashlight = Worky quite well…..

The first lense is needed to focus all the light into a smaller more focused beam while the second collimate the now equally converged beam into something that will project at a given ratio. Thus eliminating the distant focal point. I am no scientist but this makes sense in my head, likely not all yalls though because I typed what terms I know which may or may not be proper.

BLF members are hilarious:
“That’s like saying “My car has top-speed of 200k millimiles per hour”. Why not to just say 10 Ah?”

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Nice experiment DayLighter. You have creative a lively topic of debate. Keep them up.Wink

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

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HOly crap.. it’s cold out here tonight and so freaking windy.. but in the name of science.. i decided to throw another experiement. Big Smile
this time i’m using another small flood light Ultrafire HD2011 got it from Wallbuys special promotion for $9.99
but this time i’m including light meter at the end of the spectrum. it’s PIA since i have to keep on going back and forth between the flashlight and the meter to take the picture.. same distance.. about 80’ away and this time to avoid any confusions, i’m going to use my mod instead the telescope

HD2011 before ( notice there’s no hotspot as HD2011 is a flooder light)
Photobucket
the light meter measurement at 80’ away
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HD2011 inside the tube
Photobucket

HD2011 beam shot ( notice the hot spot)
Photobucket

HD2011 light meter measurement at 80’ away
Photobucket

SkyRay King at 80’ away

Photobucket
Photobucket

SkyRay king light meter at 80’ away
Photobucket

now you guys can throw all this science about lights at me… but the meter don’t lie, the device is working using just one magnifying glass at the front tube. Big Smile

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TrakTuned wrote:
Goodness MEN why all the dispute……You all saw each others points of view but argued over separate topics…..

Single asperic lense in front of REFLECTORED flashlight = no worky…..

Double lenses in front of REFLECTORED flashlight = Worky quite well…..

The first lense is needed to focus all the light into a smaller more focused beam while the second collimate the now equally converged beam into something that will project at a given ratio. Thus eliminating the distant focal point. I am no scientist but this makes sense in my head, likely not all yalls though because I typed what terms I know which may or may not be proper.

check the new posting.. it works.. but using two lens will throw even farther Big Smile

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

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Ok daylighter, you were right in regard to flooders. A floody light will throw further that way, but anything even remotely throwy (like a C8) will not benefit from this. (As shown by my beamshots)

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NightCrawl wrote:

Where do you see more throw? Post number please..

I just went outside with my L2P and a huge lens.. despite the ability of projecting a die image, there was no surprise. Ugly beam with a huge hole in the middle, significantly less light overall and less light in the hotspot. If the light in the hotspot had stayed the same, I would agree with the theory of “more throw” (although it would just be an optical trick, like aspheric throwers, more contrast and so on..). But it didnt.

 

Oh come on NZ, you got to be kidding us. How many times have we said now that these shots are misleading? Just look at the outer parts of the image, where the flashlight doesnt shine.. one is lighter than the other. Different exposure and aperture obviously.

i made more pictures with the numbers for you Smile

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scaru wrote:

Ok daylighter, you were right in regard to flooders. A floody light will throw further that way, but anything even remotely throwy (like a C8) will not benefit from this. (As shown by my beamshots)


all the decent thrower i have doesn’t throw as good as flooder light, but nevertheless.. the hotspot certainly appeared much brighter at the distance around 30’-50’ away.. the meter says so too Smile

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DayLighter wrote:
scaru wrote:

Ok daylighter, you were right in regard to flooders. A floody light will throw further that way, but anything even remotely throwy (like a C8) will not benefit from this. (As shown by my beamshots)

all the decent thrower i have doesn't throw as good as flooder light, but nevertheless.. the hotspot certainly appeared much brighter at the distance around 30'-50' away.. the meter says so too :)

Well I don't know what types of thrower's you have. Wink

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scaru wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
scaru wrote:

Ok daylighter, you were right in regard to flooders. A floody light will throw further that way, but anything even remotely throwy (like a C8) will not benefit from this. (As shown by my beamshots)

all the decent thrower i have doesn’t throw as good as flooder light, but nevertheless.. the hotspot certainly appeared much brighter at the distance around 30’-50’ away.. the meter says so too Smile

Well I don’t know what types of thrower’s you have. Wink


cheap throwers like these..
UltraOK T6 XML Trustfire C8 with extension tube
and some SS -A100 XML T6 Zoomie

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

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http://budgetlightforum.com/node/10405#node-10405

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skyrider1 wrote:
The build and idea is cool but I think he just wants to set the facts straight. Here is what I understand (correct me if I am wrong ma_sha1)

What you have achieved: increasing the focus at a short distance while sacrificing some loss in lumens and possible loss in throw too (depending on how floody/throwy the light was in the first place).

The mods you build neither increase brightness or throw (depending on light, as mentioned before). It focuses the beam at a set point but past that point, the beam will start dispersing because the beams coming out of your device are no longer parallel but rather they are converging (and after the focus, diverging).

To test brightness, you can do a ceiling bounce test.

To test throw, post pictures of beam shots with your mods, not the telescope. Scaru has already done that and shown that it does not increase throw with his lights.

In the end though, you made your floody lights more usable to you by focusing the light which is cool. But I think most people just want to set the fact straights so this mod isn’t misinterpreted as some new lumen enhancing, monster thrower discovery.

Once again, someone correct me if I am wrong but I think my original post still stands.

You have created an aspheric-like system. This focuses your beam and depending on the light can help increase throw. However, in comparison to an aspheric (which when tuned correctly turns diverging beams into “parallel” ones) your system turns somewhat parallel beams into probably converging ones. This beams will converge at the focal length and disperse after that. An aspheric lens would theoretically stay parallel infinitely.

I think people just want to clarify what you have done. Initially you posted that it increased brightness, which means that you increased lumen output. In this case, this is not true (just a misunderstanding of what brightness means). You are then stating it increased throw, which is true to an extent (except for what I mentioned before with the parallel and diverging beams). The thread gave off the idea that you found some magical way to to make cheap lights perform like amazing lights with high lumen output and monster throw. At least that is how I read it. Originally I came into this thread thinking you found some way to increase lumen output without changing what the LED was driven at which I would have been highly interested in. Who wouldn’t want more lumens with LEDs driven at the same current? Basically that could mean less heat, same battery life (or better with less heat) and more light.

In the end (like I said before), you created a cheap way to focus your floody lights and make them more useful which is cool and something I would keep in mind the next time I need a more focused beam out of my floody lights (and have a magnifying glass on hand). However, the system created is still not as good as an aspherical one.

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Max30 wrote:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/10405#node-10405

Nobody asked questions I use a 12” Oil funnel as body


i’m glad you find it entertaining too Smile
now if we can only miniaturize the system through the lens instead the tube.. it’ll be a lot cooler Big Smile
for now.. the only way is just have to use the long tube.. i’m glad somebody else also thought of this too.
sheesh you could have chime in your idea and help defend me.. lol Silly
nice shot BTW Big Smile

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skyrider1 wrote:
skyrider1 wrote:
The build and idea is cool but I think he just wants to set the facts straight. Here is what I understand (correct me if I am wrong ma_sha1)

What you have achieved: increasing the focus at a short distance while sacrificing some loss in lumens and possible loss in throw too (depending on how floody/throwy the light was in the first place).

The mods you build neither increase brightness or throw (depending on light, as mentioned before). It focuses the beam at a set point but past that point, the beam will start dispersing because the beams coming out of your device are no longer parallel but rather they are converging (and after the focus, diverging).

To test brightness, you can do a ceiling bounce test.

To test throw, post pictures of beam shots with your mods, not the telescope. Scaru has already done that and shown that it does not increase throw with his lights.

In the end though, you made your floody lights more usable to you by focusing the light which is cool. But I think most people just want to set the fact straights so this mod isn’t misinterpreted as some new lumen enhancing, monster thrower discovery.

Once again, someone correct me if I am wrong but I think my original post still stands.

You have created an aspheric-like system. This focuses your beam and depending on the light can help increase throw. However, in comparison to an aspheric (which when tuned correctly turns diverging beams into “parallel” ones) your system turns somewhat parallel beams into probably converging ones. This beams will converge at the focal length and disperse after that. An aspheric lens would theoretically stay parallel infinitely.

I think people just want to clarify what you have done. Initially you posted that it increased brightness, which means that you increased lumen output. In this case, this is not true (just a misunderstanding of what brightness means). You are then stating it increased throw, which is true to an extent (except for what I mentioned before with the parallel and diverging beams). The thread gave off the idea that you found some magical way to to make cheap lights perform like amazing lights with high lumen output and monster throw. At least that is how I read it. Originally I came into this thread thinking you found some way to increase lumen output without changing what the LED was driven at which I would have been highly interested in. Who wouldn’t want more lumens with LEDs driven at the same current? Basically that could mean less heat, same battery life (or better with less heat) and more light.

In the end (like I said before), you created a cheap way to focus your floody lights and make them more useful which is cool and something I would keep in mind the next time I need a more focused beam out of my floody lights (and have a magnifying glass on hand). However, the system created is still not as good as an aspherical one.

to be honest with you.. i’m still baffled by this too.. the ceiling test shows nothing different in brightness than without it.
however.. like i pointed it out in pictures or light meter test it doesn’t lie.. it simply is brighter.
i changed the subject to more throw instead brightness as it get a lot of people confused.
i guess some people perceived brightness in terms of calculated scientific formula. others like me..to see those beam shots, it just plain simple brighter.
as far as lumens? does it increase? or does it decrease? i don’t really care nor need to understand how it works.. i want a cheap light and able to throw far .. maybe as far as lights that cost 10X more than my cheap light, and i found it the device does just that.
too bad some people have higher expectation that the device need to increase in lumens that can measured scientifically to be accepted as it is brighter than before.
as my picture shows.. using my idea,my cheap Trustfire Wf-502B can throw over 300’, to me.. that’s amazing,as normally that light will never hit over 100’.. but even with those pictures.. some people still unconvince.
if you meant aspherical lens as in zoomie flashlight.. i’ll be glad to tell you it works wonder too with the device.
as it cancel out the typical square hot spot that associated with zoomie light, it even throw farther too Smile

my next experiment is going to use even cheaper flashlight such as coast G10 , i got this light for free for filing up a survey with them Smile
clearly this light will hardly can illuminate an object 50’ away, yet during my preliminary testing using the same device.. it able to throw that far.
stay tuned Smile

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

scaru
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DayLighter wrote:
as far as lumens? does it increase? or does it decrease? i don't really care nor need to understand how it works..

The lumens decrease, as I already proved. (Using my light meter)

Pulsar13
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DL, the meter measures light intensity(lux), NOT brightness(lumens). Please understand this. Misusing terms is why everybody is confused. 

When you read the number being higher, it means simply light is more intense/concentrated. Measuring straight from the front, you get much higher number, that number shows light is more focused and concentrated on smaller spot. This is lux.

As you mentioned, measuring light bounce give same number on the meter, with and without. That is expected, as ceiling bounce scatter the light and average out the intensity.

Seriously though, a few members already explained straight in this thread and I don't think you're even trying to understand them. Lumens is NOT lux. I understand what you're saying, but using different "language" and "terms" simply won't get points across.

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