Longer throw without changing the driver !! :) Prototype is done and now it's time for testing.. ( more beam shots)

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DayLighter
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here we go again at this Lux and lumens thingie… for one thing, you’re right about me not even trying to understand them. as i will mention it again.. and again.. this mod is not about them lux or lumen.
is about* an idea *how to make cheap flood flashlights throw farther than they normally could.
maybe i’m making a mistake in the beginning mentioning about brightness as some people confused at what’s the meaning of brighter.
to some people like you..the meaning of brightness have to be scientifically measured in lumens or lux.
and to some people like me and others who don’t give a crap regarding the lumens or lux, we judge it by our own eyes..
if the pictures shows it’s brighter than before.. then it is.. as simple as that.
if what i did simply manipulating beams of light into tighter beam so it can throw farther than before.. then that’s it, that’s the goal for me.
and to others like me..we don’t care about what parallel beams is, or how much lumens lost in the process…
all we know is that darn thing can throw farther than before. make that a lot farther Smile
like i said before.. maybe your point of view of what’s consider brighter is different than on what my point of view of what brighter is..

but unfortunately some people like you tend to get lost in the moment and rather enjoying debating on the issues of what can be consider the term of brightness, and failed to see the bigger picture here.
it is about* sharing ideas * it is not about trying to get points cross,it is not about convincing other people that they should believe in my mod.
it’s a simple mod build for the fun of it.. that’s all about.. FUN Big Smile

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DayLighter wrote:
as i will mention it again.. and again.. this mod is not about them lux or lumen.

Anything that is trying to increase throw is about lux...

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scaru wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
as i will mention it again.. and again.. this mod is not about them lux or lumen.

Anything that is trying to increase throw is about lux…


lol..give it up already scaru Silly

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DL, why are you so determined that you don't want to learn about the correct terminology? Imagine you wanted to discuss car motors and someone would constantly confuse horsepower and torque... At some point, you'll not only confuse members, you'll irritate them.

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DayLighter I’m with you. Many here has not read (or understood) what I pointed at in post #24.
Not that it is easy stuff, It took me years to comprehend it (I was ten years in an optical lab as a software developer).

What you did was to focus the beam better and as a result you have a brighter hotspot as you say. Simple as that.

Brightness has little to do with total output and is a physiological, unlinear unit. Just as you say, does this look brighter than that?
Think of this experiment: You light up a wall with your light and have a bright hotspot on the wall. You take a dark cloth to the wall and block half of the hotspot.
The result is that the remaining hotspot has exactly the same brightness as before althougt you blocked half of the lumens out.

Brightness is an unlinear function of an objects Luminance. The Luminance of the object (here the hotspot on the wall) is the difficult thing to understand. It is measured in candela per square metre.
Bicycle lights are often measured in Candelas (which is lumens per unit of solid angle – Half a sphere covers about 6 units of solid angle).
Think of the hotspot as a collection of houndreds of tiny bicycle lights that shine in your face, each with the intensity of 1 lumen per unit solid angle.
The luminance (and hence the brightness) is then how many of these tiny lights there are per square meter.
(Not easy stuff to explain either).

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Wow.
Concept, I was thinking would increase brightness shown here, and done before I could try it Smile It’s nice to see people chime in and actually explain “torque and horsepower” of the flashlight. I UNDERSTAND it now!

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sigh.. i wish you guys woud give up on this issues regarding brightness or lumens.
i’m not trying to be an ignorant A..hole regarding the brightness or lumens..
you guys are killing me here.. Silly
what i’m trying to do is just to show a simple experiment that maybe someday somebody could take it further to improve it.
i already change the subject from brighter to longer throw.. and i did shows just that..so what’s the big issue here?
it’s like asking which one is brighter.. Skay Ray king or Thrunite TN31?
i’m pretty sure everybody have different opinion on this too.

i think this debate started with ma_sha1 post #12:

Long focal length magnifier lens can focus the beam to the wall & make the spot very bright, 10x brighter easily, but this diverge the beam and thus reduce flashlight throw.
In this case, greatly increased lux on the wall = greatly decreased throw!
This is like playing with magnifying glass to focus sun light, the focused spot is strong enough to ignite fire, but +will no longer throw long distance.
+

well guess what? i proved him wrong, how could you increase the lux but suffer decrease in throw?
do i need to change the subject to increase the lux and longer throw from simple light instead?
does that will make people happy here?

i guess only Old lumen post #34 says it better than anyone here..
No…

You don’t understand. If it can’t be dissected, corrected, manipulated, stipulated, debated, rejected or accepted, it can’t be discussed in a flashlight forum.

Yes, you redirected the light and it appears brighter, because it is more focused. No, it really isn’t brighter scientifically, because optics cannot increase light output. They are all just going through their usual long BLF process, let them enjoy, they can’t help it.

As for me, I think it’s a pretty cool attempt at focusing the light from your flashlights into a more usable beam. Not everyone knows the scientific correctness and the reality is “It’s just a flashlight for ***** sakes and it’s just a hobby, not building a rocket here, LOL. Have fun with it.
Smile

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DayLighter wrote:
i think this debate started with ma_sha1 post #12: Long focal length magnifier lens can focus the beam to the wall & make the spot very bright, 10x brighter easily, but this diverge the beam and thus reduce flashlight throw. In this case, greatly increased lux on the wall = greatly decreased throw! This is like playing with magnifying glass to focus sun light, the focused spot is strong enough to ignite fire, but +will no longer throw long distance. + well guess what? i proved him wrong, how could you increase the lux but suffer decrease in throw?

You proved him wrong in regard to flood lights, anything with a decent sized reflector will not benefit from this as shown by my experiment. It was brighter on the wall with the fresnel lens, but did not throw as far. That is quite clear. 

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Didnt even work on my P60. So I dont know what kind of lights could benefit. Cheap aspherics?

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scaru wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
i think this debate started with ma_sha1 post #12: Long focal length magnifier lens can focus the beam to the wall & make the spot very bright, 10x brighter easily, but this diverge the beam and thus reduce flashlight throw. In this case, greatly increased lux on the wall = greatly decreased throw! This is like playing with magnifying glass to focus sun light, the focused spot is strong enough to ignite fire, but +will no longer throw long distance. + well guess what? i proved him wrong, how could you increase the lux but suffer decrease in throw?

You proved him wrong in regard to flood lights, anything with a decent sized reflector will not benefit from this as shown by my experiment. It was brighter on the wall with the fresnel lens, but did not throw as far. That is quite clear. 

it still can be done, however you might need different size of magnifying glasses, something that i currently don’t have nor i can’t find a big one as in 10” diameter.. check your post regarding that 10” diameter monster thrower.

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DayLighter wrote:
scaru wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
i think this debate started with ma_sha1 post #12: Long focal length magnifier lens can focus the beam to the wall & make the spot very bright, 10x brighter easily, but this diverge the beam and thus reduce flashlight throw. In this case, greatly increased lux on the wall = greatly decreased throw! This is like playing with magnifying glass to focus sun light, the focused spot is strong enough to ignite fire, but +will no longer throw long distance. + well guess what? i proved him wrong, how could you increase the lux but suffer decrease in throw?

You proved him wrong in regard to flood lights, anything with a decent sized reflector will not benefit from this as shown by my experiment. It was brighter on the wall with the fresnel lens, but did not throw as far. That is quite clear. 

it still can be done, however you might need different size of magnifying glasses, something that i currently don't have nor i can't find a big one as in 10" diameter.. check your post regarding that 10" diameter monster thrower.

I was using a 8.5 inch by 11 inch fresnel lens. It was plenty big...

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Peace Daylighter, my post #177 was aimed at your opponents!

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scaru wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
scaru wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
i think this debate started with ma_sha1 post #12: Long focal length magnifier lens can focus the beam to the wall & make the spot very bright, 10x brighter easily, but this diverge the beam and thus reduce flashlight throw. In this case, greatly increased lux on the wall = greatly decreased throw! This is like playing with magnifying glass to focus sun light, the focused spot is strong enough to ignite fire, but +will no longer throw long distance. + well guess what? i proved him wrong, how could you increase the lux but suffer decrease in throw?

You proved him wrong in regard to flood lights, anything with a decent sized reflector will not benefit from this as shown by my experiment. It was brighter on the wall with the fresnel lens, but did not throw as far. That is quite clear. 

it still can be done, however you might need different size of magnifying glasses, something that i currently don’t have nor i can’t find a big one as in 10” diameter.. check your post regarding that 10” diameter monster thrower.

I was using a 8.5 inch by 11 inch fresnel lens. It was plenty big…


yeah it doesn’t really work well with thrower.. only works very well with flooder light

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DayLighter wrote:
 yeah it doesn't really work well with thrower.. only works very well with flooder light

Ok, so you admit you didn't prove ma_sha wrong?

DayLighter wrote:
i think this debate started with ma_sha1 post #12: Long focal length magnifier lens can focus the beam to the wall & make the spot very bright, 10x brighter easily, but this diverge the beam and thus reduce flashlight throw. In this case, greatly increased lux on the wall = greatly decreased throw! This is like playing with magnifying glass to focus sun light, the focused spot is strong enough to ignite fire, but +will no longer throw long distance. + well guess what? i proved him wrong, how could you increase the lux but suffer decrease in throw?
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NZ Shooter wrote:
Rufusbduck wrote:
When you stuck your finger in the hose it went farther but less water actually came out.

Sorry fella, totally incorrect.

Fill up a bucket with an un-restricted hose, time how long it takes.

Do it again, same bucket, same hose flow with your finger partly over the end.

The times will be the same ( give or take a second or two, as you may not stop at exactly the same fill line )

Less water runs out, but at a faster rate. Equaling identical water flow, say litres / minute.

I’m going to pile on mister know it all here. Sorry fella, YOU are totally incorrect. Do your experiment accurately and you will find out the times are NOT the same. By putting your finger over the hose you introduced a restriction to the flow so the actual flow goes down. The only way you can maintain the same flow in the restricted line is to increase the pressure.

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There are no opponents, just people wanting to clarify terminology and what was done.

If you use a magnifying glass to focus sunlight, you have greatly increased lux at the focus point, but past that point the beam will disperse and not stay focused. I think that is the clarification people want to get across.

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scaru wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
 yeah it doesn’t really work well with thrower.. only works very well with flooder light

Ok, so you admit you didn’t prove ma_sha wrong?

DayLighter wrote:
i think this debate started with ma_sha1 post #12: Long focal length magnifier lens can focus the beam to the wall & make the spot very bright, 10x brighter easily, but this diverge the beam and thus reduce flashlight throw. In this case, greatly increased lux on the wall = greatly decreased throw! This is like playing with magnifying glass to focus sun light, the focused spot is strong enough to ignite fire, but +will no longer throw long distance. + well guess what? i proved him wrong, how could you increase the lux but suffer decrease in throw?

nope.. i’m still stand on my statement, with flooder lights that i’m testing.. it’s definitely will not loss in throw distance, in fact it increase by many times fold, HOWEVER.. using throw flashlight.. it doesn’t works as well as flooder light..maybe because the way the reflector beams out the light?
i don’t know i’m not a light engineer. but it is only prove it only works well with flooder lights only..
i’m still trying to find a way to increase the throw using thrower light. that’s why it’s called prototype Smile

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DayLighter wrote:
 nope.. i'm still stand on my statement, with flooder lights that i'm testing.. it's definitely will not loss in throw distance, in fact it increase by many times fold, HOWEVER.. using throw flashlight.. it doesn't works as well as flooder light..maybe because the way the reflector beams out the light? i don't know i'm not a light engineer. but it is only prove it only works well with flooder lights only.. i'm still trying to find a way to increase the throw using thrower light. that's why it's called prototype :)

Ok, so you stand by your statement that ma_sha was wrong when he said

ma_sha1 wrote:
In this case, greatly increased lux on the wall = greatly decreased throw!

Even though you said. 

DayLighter wrote:
yeah it doesn't really work well with thrower.. only works very well with flooder light

You have contradicted yourself. 

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JonnyC wrote:

This is the craziest thread I’ve seen on here.  Maybe that just means I don’t step outside of of the DIY section often enough.

If you’re going for THROW, why not just toss an aspheric lens on a host and be done with it?!  Or just buy a $10 zoomable light that will out throw whatever contraption you come up with?  If you want to have something that can be as universal as possible, just use your telescope instead of trying to create a half-ass one.

Also, concepts (and subsequent definitions) matter.  They are integral to communication.  If you want to avoid having to think conceptually, then you have to accept the fact that no one will be able to have a rational discussion with you (i.e. you won’t be able to learn anything).


using aspheric lenses won’t produce the same result..zoomable light have that square hotspot.. however when you combine the zoomlight with this thing.. it cancel out the square hotspot without losing the throw distance:)
my telscope only can fit Trustfire WF 502B perfectly, but not other lights that i currently own, that’s why i’m trying to build it bigger, using the same concept as telescope, but can be use with different lights
PS.. the zoomie light will never out throw this device when used with trustfire 502b:)

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What you need to take into account is the effect that ‘spill’ has on your eye’s pupils. The intensity of the foreground spill will affect your perception of the hot spot in the distance. If your pupils have ‘stopped down’ to handle the light in the foreground then the hotspot will appear dimmer. Concentrate all the spill into the hotspot then the ‘throw’ will appear brighter because your pupils will be open wider (much like DayLighter’s auto camera’s apeture).
I can see both sides of the argument here. There is less light but it’s put where it’s needed. This is why the Jacob A60 is still well thought of as a thrower even though it is low on lumens.
By the way a fun experiment & another excuse to play with my torches.
BTW Have a Happy New Year everyone. Beer

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JonnyC wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
i’m still trying to find a way to increase the throw using thrower light. that’s why it’s called prototype Smile

XR-E emitter and an aspheric lens.  Done.

I think trying to make something universal will be economically a waste (of both time and money).  I celebrate experimentation, but it should be to gain knowledge or results.  You don’t seem intent on gaining knowledge, and what you create will be less usable and effective than something you can buy for cheap.

judging on your comment, i guess you didn’t see the last picture that i posted?
you didn’t gain any knowledge on that experiment? Shocked

is my creation will less usable and effective than something i can buy?( don’t know about cheap) absolutely…
it’s an idea that i created and hoping will spawn another idea, a better one ..
but if we can only be happy with 1 king thrower such as TN31 and 1 flooder maybe something like TK75…then who need idea? then who need forums like these ?
i’m pretty sure you owned more than 2 flashlights.. and maybe getting more in the future.
but if there’s an idea out there that can make all the lights that you own and turn it into “monster“light.. wouldn’t you want one?
and where do you think those idea will come from?
it’s the people like me who like to waste their time and money trying build something to improve what we have own already.
as far if it work well or not? there’s only 1 way to find out.
so..it probably will be much nicer if you can come out with something nicer build and share it with others instead raining on others parade Smile

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The problem is it doesn't turn it into a monster light... It may turn a flooder into a thrower, but why not start with a thrower in the first place? And while yes, you are modifying lights; so am I. The difference is I understand what I'm doing and actually make it brighter. (Driver swap, or LED swap, or more LEDs) Either way, Happy new year!

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You have an idea, an interesting one, but your initial claims were made based on an incorrect use of terminology. Yes, it’s brighter, but an increase in light on the target doesn’t mean an increase in light from the torch. I certainly don’t want to bash you or stifle your creativity but the rampant inflated claims of run time and output by marketers make people trigger happy when new claims come out and it was too easy to spot the flaws in your statements. What you’ve done could save a life someday. Well done. I hope you have learned a bit more about flood vs throw and the trade offs between them when focusing light. Thanks

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

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scaru wrote:

The problem is it doesn’t turn it into a monster light… It may turn a flooder into a thrower, but why not start with a thrower in the first place? And while yes, you are modifying lights; so am I. The difference is I understand what I’m doing and actually make it brighter. (Driver swap, or LED swap, or more LEDs) Either way, Happy new year!


lol.. the problem is… it doesn’t meet the requirement of what’s brighter means to you, like i said..if you expecting a cheap $12 light and turn it to a monster throw like HIDs then you’re setting yourself up for dissapointment. happy new year to you too Big Smile Party

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

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Rufusbduck wrote:
You have an idea, an interesting one, but your initial claims were made based on an incorrect use of terminology. Yes, it’s brighter, but an increase in light on the target doesn’t mean an increase in light from the torch. I certainly don’t want to bash you or stifle your creativity but the rampant inflated claims of run time and output by marketers make people trigger happy when new claims come out and it was too easy to spot the flaws in your statements. What you’ve done could save a life someday. Well done. I hope you have learned a bit more about flood vs throw and the trade offs between them when focusing light. Thanks

yes i do learn a lot from this experiments.. never mention the word “brighter”.. i should just let the picture speaks for themselves next time Big Smile
happy new year! Party
PS: this mode will come in handy someday if you ever go need to go search and rescue and the only light you have is one of those small flooder light Wink

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

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“ When you put your finger over the tip of the hose, you decrease the amount of space the water has to flow through. Since the same amount of water has to flow out of the hose before and after you place you finger over the end, the water must shoot out faster (to keep the amount of water flowing out a constant).”

The point is that the only way “to keep the amount flowing out a constant” once you put your finger on it is to turn the pressure up. He assumes a constant flow rate which is not the case. I’m sure the author would concede that extremely basic concept. Texts do sometimes have errors. Thats why we have editors. The collimator introduces a restriction in the flow of light but there has been no increase in the light pressure going into it.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

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The 300ft beamshot was with a telescope, not his mod.

The problem in this thread is all the terms being thrown around without proper understanding of what they mean. (I myself probably made some errors). Another problem is the contradictions of the OP bringing in the telescope and his mod. They are very different, 2 lens vs 1 lens.

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Let’s just put that analogy to rest as it is bringing this thread off topic.

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I resisted posting for two days, lol, I am going to give it one more try with the intent to clarify things for forum readers, especially those new to optical lens for flashlight use :). It’s very confusing, so bear with me.

“The OP’s thread actually started here: “ http://budgetlightforum.com/node/16544#node-16544”: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/16544#node-16544

It was using a lens that looks like a long EFL fresnel lens directly on top of the flashlight, don’t know why all the photos were gone,
but anyways, my comments started there & followed here when OP started a new thread with what looked like the same device.

All my comments, when I said it won’t wk, stated it’s for long EFL lens, where the focal length is much longer than the distance between led & the lens. Scaru’s test that confirmed my statements probably used long EFL fresnel lens, more inline with OP’s initial experiments.

This optical principle only partially apply to Medium EFL lens depends on where is the placement of led in relation to the lens focal point.
and depends on the size of original reflector., thus the throw of original flashlight, in relation to the size of added lens.

What’s further complicating this thread is that it looks like mixing of original long EFL lens now with devices with medium EFL lens as well as telescopes, without separating the various lens as well as lens vs telescope & using them to support each other. I think we pretty much figured out which shots are from telescope, I am going to focus on the remaining confusion, what’s happening when Medium EFL lens are used?

When OP place a 3” medium EFL lens, mounted in a tube 8” away from the flashlight, if the lens has an EFL of 8” or so,
this basically create an Aspherical flashlight, just not as efficient as typical aspherical flashlight, which use short EFL lens, so that it can be placed very close to led to collect a bigger angle of light spread. The lens placed far away like 8”, only collect a small angle of beam coming from the led.

None the less, if the led is placed at the focal point of a medium EFL lens, it’ll have the same effect as typical aspherical flashlight and increase throw.

As we all know, the throw of Aspheric flashlight is based on the diameter of the lens, thus OP was able to make it throw much further by using a 3” lens over a small reflector flashlight. May be OP can measure the EFL & confirm that he is actually placing the led at the focal point for his later single lens device, i.e actually making an aspheric flashlight?

If this is the case, it’s possible to explain why it works better in a floody light but not so much in a thrower.

A floody light typically have very small reflector, most of the light comes out as spill, the lens collect the spill & turns it into parallel beam,
in the mean time, diverge the original parallel beam from reflector so that the throw from reflector is lost. because the large lens works much more efficiently than a small reflector, the net effect is much increased throw. The gain is much greater than the loss.

On the other hand, a thrower flashlight usually has a large reflector, TN31 3”, SR90, SR95 UT 3.5”, they are able to collect majority of the light & send them out as parallel beam to have great throw to begin with. With the lens of similar diameter,3” for example, if the led is placed at the focal point, the lens will still collect the spill & turn it into throw, but in the mean time, diverge & mess-up the original throw from the reflector, because the original throw may be greater, the lens may not provide improvement, especially a low quality lens placed 8” away.

In a nuts shell, There are total of at least three type of optical systems experimented by the OP, improve throw or not will depend on the EFL of the lens, the placement of led, and the original reflector size in relation to the diameter of added lens.

1. Long EFL lens placed in front of a flashlight: Will not increase throw, it’s not practical to place led at the focal point as its to long.
2. Medium EFL lens, with flashlight led placed at or near EFL: Will increase throw, rather than a shocking new discovery, it’s just a less practical & less efficient form of aspheric flashlight setup, non the less, follow the same principle.
3. Telescope placed in front of a flashlight: Will increase throw. Not practical but I do find it interesting, especially if it has a really big front lens.

I do want to apologize for using the elephant story to make my point, even if its out of frustration triggered by wild claims & great confusion, it was inappropriate for me to do so.

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Joined: 04/12/2012 - 03:14
Posts: 2179
DayLighter wrote:
using aspheric lenses won’t produce the same result..zoomable light have that square hotspot.. however when you combine the zoomlight with this thing.. it cancel out the square hotspot without losing the throw distance:)

1. A fixed aspheric (or FTT version) can have a slightly off focus beam that is roundish or even round (which seems similar to what you are doing).

Personally, the die shape works fine in most regular thrower uses . . at its useful distance it fills an open garage or carport or boathouse just fine. I see a lot of people complaining about it, but it seems to be a preference for past norms rather than utility.

2. My focused FTT is brighter than my focused 501b aspheric up close, so I suspect it will throw further. Both are XML T6s at moderate current. It’s die image is tighter from the same distance to a wall so I suspect the different lens is more efficient.

Efficiency is a useful goal – one can get there by both experimenting and by learning and using all that science stuff and even through changing opinions through knowledge learned from argument.

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