Longer throw without changing the driver !! :) Prototype is done and now it's time for testing.. ( more beam shots)

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Rufusbduck
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There were seemingly a few different arguments going on but it seems to me you can take a floody output and focus it to an almost parallel beam. Great, this has cost you some overall output as not all of the flood ended up 300’ away, some was absorbed by the lens. Nothing is free. In the alleyway shots it was apparent to me that the floody beam reflected more foreground light back to the camera causing it to shorten the exposure leaving the background dim. The focused beam reflected much less light so had a longer exposure making the spot appear brighter than a camera with a manually set exposure time. You can see this in the areas outside the spot appear brighter, indicating a longer exposure. You are not wrong in all respects, nor are you right. Conceding a point now and then might stem the tide of blood and earn you some respect as well. There is a lot more going on here with the different lenses than can be explained on a bar napkin. If you want to learn, listen and ask questions all day long. If you don’t want to learn, then don’t argue, just post it as a “look what I found, can anybody explain it?“and move on. Please don’t take this personally but though your language is clean, your style is a bit defensive and argumentative. Too much of this thread has been off topic brewhaha for me. If someone is rude(happens all the time) don’t respond. It only escalates otherwise. I hope you read this in the spirit in which it is intended. Take care.

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Rufusbduck wrote:
There were seemingly a few different arguments going on but it seems to me you can take a floody output and focus it to an almost parallel beam. Great, this has cost you some overall output as not all of the flood ended up 300’ away, some was absorbed by the lens. Nothing is free. In the alleyway shots it was apparent to me that the floody beam reflected more foreground light back to the camera causing it to shorten the exposure leaving the background dim. The focused beam reflected much less light so had a longer exposure making the spot appear brighter than a camera with a manually set exposure time. You can see this in the areas outside the spot appear brighter, indicating a longer exposure. You are not wrong in all respects, nor are you right. Conceding a point now and then might stem the tide of blood and earn you some respect as well. There is a lot more going on here with the different lenses than can be explained on a bar napkin. If you want to learn, listen and ask questions all day long. If you don’t want to learn, then don’t argue, just post it as a “look what I found, can anybody explain it?“and move on. Please don’t take this personally but though your language is clean, your style is a bit defensive and argumentative. Too much of this thread has been off topic brewhaha for me. If someone is rude(happens all the time) don’t respond. It only escalates otherwise. I hope you read this in the spirit in which it is intended. Take care.

the alleyway shots.. was taken after rainy day.. if you look on the ground, it’s black because it is wet. and if you compare it with my second posts shots using HD2011.. you can see the ground very clearly.
!{width:100%}Photobucket!
!{width:100%}Photobucket!
!{width:100%}Photobucket!
as you can see both light are flooder, so i don’t think the camera missed the light in background by that much..
if anything .. the first shot that was taken during rainy day was perfect example,.. as the only light that bounce was only from the walls,
the brightness of the flashlight is pretty much what you see is what you get.
and the hotspot clearly show how much concentrated the light was ..

although i might prematurely call it as it’s brighter without realizing, this will soon create a controversial subject to a heated debate, in which i found out that some member actually PM’ed other member to continue argument outside the thread.
i found it very revulsing..and very disturbing indeed, and they definitely need to get a life outside this forum.
as i mentioned it in my few posts.. what is consider BRIGHTER?
if it looks and shine brighter on the wall, and if it throw longer.. what would you like to call it?
to flasholic fanatics in this forum.. it has to mean increasing in lumens output X times of the amount of the original flashlight output.
and to regular novice hobbyist like me.. what my eyes see.. is what i think it is.
but does it really matter who’s right or who’s wrong in term of the word “BRIGHTER”?
the fanatic flasholics in this forum defended the word “BRIGHTER” like bunch of Talibans.. that you are not allowed to have fun except for themselves.
it is a sad thing for the forum, if the moderator feels the need to come to a thread and help calm everbody down..
and those fanatics failed to see bigger picture of all these experiments.. it is just an IDEA.
IDEA that could spawn more and better ideas for the future.

just think what would happen, if the flashlight companies never challenge the word “BRIGHTER”, we probably will still have MAG-lites and be happy with it Big Smile
So.. peace Everybody and Happy New Year to all of Us and may more great IDEAS spawn this year Smile

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

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DayLighter wrote:
....i found out that some member actually PM'ed other member to continue argument outside the thread. i found it very revulsing...

That's kind of the point of PMs.  There is often no need to subject the entire membership to some discussions.

 

DayLighter wrote:
...but does it really matter who’s right or who’s wrong in term of the word “BRIGHTER”? 

Using the correct terminology is essential, if productive discussion is desired.  This point seems to be lost on you.

Rufusbduck pretty much hit it on the head in his post, above.

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Yes, GottaZoom, I realize all that. I was trying to keep things as simple as possible so those unfamiliar with the subject might gain some understanding. You have to walk before you can run. Around here half inch pipe is very common in household plumbing, along with 1/2” garden hose outside. Given the two are the same id, putting your thumb over the hose will decrease the flow rate. I wasn’t trying to get into a full blown discussion of fluid dynamics. I was just trying to correct a flawed and what I perceived as somewhat rude post. (Not your posts)

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Chicago X wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
….i found out that some member actually PM’ed other member to continue argument outside the thread. i found it very revulsing…

That’s kind of the point of PMs.  There is often no need to subject the entire membership to some discussions.

 

DayLighter wrote:
…but does it really matter who’s right or who’s wrong in term of the word “BRIGHTER”? 

Using the correct terminology is essential, if productive discussion is desired.  This point seems to be lost on you.

Rufusbduck pretty much hit it on the head in his post, above.

sorry Chicago X if Idon’t agree with you regarding using PM as to continue a debate outside the thread.
to me,PM are reserved for private messages regarding private infos.. such as selling, buying, trading or some other stuffs that you don’t want anybody else to know.. definitely is not a place for trading insults.
and if they do feel the need to continue to trade insult out of the thread.. then they seriously have a problem.
heated debates should always be leave it at the thread, wether its good or bad.. it’s for others to see and chime in if they want too.. if not they could always stays in neutral corner.

Rufusbduck is probably right about me, for saying my style is a bit defensive and argumentative, but that could always be expected from anybody when they’re trying to defend their ideas.

it’s coming down to a simple solution really.. if you tried to make your point cross and others just don’t get it.. just leave it at that. Smile
don’t try to convert them.. let them be.. sooner or later they will learn themselves Wink

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NERD FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL!

You guys need to step back and really look at what you are doing. You are fighting over terminoloy.

Maybe the OP wasn’t 100% correct. Who really cares? Part of the reason this site was founded was to get away from the Nerd Nazis like they have on CPF.

The OP was just experimenting and having fun with a hobby he enjoys. I suspect some of the comments completely crushed his desire to share anything in the future.

Since I am not a flashlight super expert, I tend to learn more from people who also are less expert.

To be honest, the smartest people on here are way beyond my level and I don’t read or care about the minutiae of how a beam of light is measured.

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Speedsix wrote:
Part of the reason this site was founded was to get away from the Nerd Nazis like they have on CPF.

Ever notice how terrorists use the open and free societies that they so despise to allow them the freedom to perform there acts of terrorism? It has occurred to me that CPF could have sent over some plants to sabotage our free and open forum with contentious remarks. There have been some calls for more moderation here. That would be a shame and a victory for the “terrorists” The great American statesman, Benjamin Franklin spoke on this long ago

“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 – 1790)

As for more Moderation, my old Aunt Anna had a favorite saying just before she poured herself another drink”

“Be moderate in all things, including moderation.” Wink

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NightCrawl wrote:
@GottaZoom: Finger on hose -> less water. Its not that hard.

Less than what? Finger on the hose is less max flow potential. That can become less actual flow after a certain point, as I posted.

The physics can go either way as long as there is enough pressure and flow potential to maintain the flow rate of the full open condition. If the hose is already constricted on flow-rate relative to max flow on the inlet, then your cover-it-all answer is correct. It’s just that you’re only right under certain conditions, and under others the results are different.

The whole point of my posts in this thread are that there are too many that don’t examine the variables, and allow for the exceptions or conditions that others may be providing. Condescending posts like the one above are not helpful – in fact they are insulting in their implicit and unspoken assumptions.

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leaftye wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
as i mentioned it in my few posts.. what is consider BRIGHTER

if it looks and shine brighter on the wall, and if it throw longer.. what would you like to call it?
to flasholic fanatics in this forum.. it has to mean increasing in lumens output X times of the amount of the original flashlight output.
and to regular novice hobbyist like me.. what my eyes see.. is what i think it is.
but does it really matter who’s right or who’s wrong in term of the word “BRIGHTER”? 
the fanatic flasholics in this forum defended the word “BRIGHTER” like bunch of Talibans.. that you are not allowed to have fun except for themselves.

 

 

There's no point in attempting to have conversations if we're not going to abide to definitions.  It'd be just a bunch of random gibberish.  Did you watch Dictator?  We could replace the words "good" and "bad" with "aladeen", along with many other words.  Wouldn't that be fun?

 

In another thread we discussed how aladeens can impress the aladeened because it throws an aladeen spot on a wall further away even though it might be 10X more aladeen than an aladeen.

lol.. reminded me of this song..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg2DHRAqWy0

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

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dct73 wrote:
Yes, GottaZoom, I realize all that. I was trying to keep things as simple as possible so those unfamiliar with the subject might gain some understanding. You have to walk before you can run. Around here half inch pipe is very common in household plumbing, along with 1/2” garden hose outside. Given the two are the same id, putting your thumb over the hose will decrease the flow rate. I wasn’t trying to get into a full blown discussion of fluid dynamics. I was just trying to correct a flawed and what I perceived as somewhat rude post. (Not your posts)

I appreciate that. Some standard assumptions are not standard to others. We use 3/4” or if I have to 5/8” garden hoses even though some of the old faucets we have here aren’t capable of full potential. Besides, when running garden irrigation off the demand 220v pump some of the standard assumptions don’t apply. Smile

I’m mostly a stats guy, a favorite line a friend uses is a boy and his dog have 3 legs each. A simple view might be that they are both male and the dog is missing two legs . . it’s a wrong view.

My ax to grind on this is the discourtesy in the discussion. If NZ Shooter’s example was a wrong assumption relative to the flashlight science, THAT should have been the discussion – which is NOT achieved by using a simple argument. It’s a lot more appropriate to explain when the assumption behind the example can be valid, and then why that assumption doesn’t apply to the flashlight example. Too few seemed to be arguing the wrong thing because they don’t know the flashlight science and that is when we should stay out of that discussion or approach it with a lot more courtesy than many who should be walking are running and gunning.

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@GottaZoom: When you put your finger on the hose to make the jet smaller, less water flows. No matter what preconditions you assume, thats the case. Unless you have a pump that is set to a fixed amount of water and therefore increases the pressure. But what would that pump do if you closed the hose? Make your pipes burst?

"A boy and his dog have 3 legs each." Whats that meant to tell us? I can interpret so many senseless stuff into that sentence, so whats the point?

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NightCrawl wrote:

@GottaZoom: When you put your finger on the hose to make the jet smaller, less water flows. No matter what preconditions you assume, thats the case.

Hammertime! No, flow is a combination of pressure and capacity. Reducing capacity increases pressure but that is only a flow reduction when the capacity drops far enough that the existing system pressure cannot rise enough to maintain flow. At that point increased pump pressure would be needed to maintain flow or the volume then drops.

NightCrawl wrote:
Unless you have a pump that is set to a fixed amount of water and therefore increases the pressure. But what would that pump do if you closed the hose? Make your pipes burst?

LOL.

NightCrawl wrote:
“A boy and his dog have 3 legs each.” Whats that meant to tell us? I can interpret so many senseless stuff into that sentence, so whats the point?

That’s the point . . is a stat and so it will be interpreted wrongly. Doesn’t stop people from thinking they know something when they hear a stat, though. Think of it as a variation on the blind men and the elephant story. Or thinking that finding an answer on the internet is learning the answer. A sensible person will recognize they need more info to form a more complete picture, and then courteously ask questions so they might learn something.

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I think everyone is tired of reading the useless runaway arguements from the past week. Lets all agree to keep it flashlights with a show of respect to NZ . innuendos and remarks should be where they belong, history.  Those that showed up after some of recent fireworks looking for easy targets now that some of the dust has cleared with off the cuff slick remarcks,    STFU..please

 


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DayLighter wrote:

leaftye wrote:

DayLighter wrote:
as i mentioned it in my few posts.. what is consider BRIGHTER

if it looks and shine brighter on the wall, and if it throw longer.. what would you like to call it?
to flasholic fanatics in this forum.. it has to mean increasing in lumens output X times of the amount of the original flashlight output.
and to regular novice hobbyist like me.. what my eyes see.. is what i think it is.
but does it really matter who’s right or who’s wrong in term of the word “BRIGHTER”? 
the fanatic flasholics in this forum defended the word “BRIGHTER” like bunch of Talibans.. that you are not allowed to have fun except for themselves.

 

 

There's no point in attempting to have conversations if we're not going to abide to definitions.  It'd be just a bunch of random gibberish.  Did you watch Dictator?  We could replace the words "good" and "bad" with "aladeen", along with many other words.  Wouldn't that be fun?

 

In another thread we discussed how aladeens can impress the aladeened because it throws an aladeen spot on a wall further away even though it might be 10X more aladeen than an aladeen.

lol.. reminded me of this song..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg2DHRAqWy0

 

Amusing song, but I was hoping for more aladeen.

The low mode should be lower.

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DarkSide wrote:

I think everyone is tired of reading the useless runaway arguements from the past week. Lets all agree to keep it flashlights with a show of respect to NZ . innuendos and remarks should be where they belong, history.  Those that showed up after some of recent fireworks looking for easy targets now that some of the dust has cleared with off the cuff slick remarcks,    STFU..please


+1

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GottaZoom wrote:
NightCrawl wrote:

@GottaZoom: When you put your finger on the hose to make the jet smaller, less water flows. No matter what preconditions you assume, thats the case.

Hammertime! No, flow is a combination of pressure and capacity. Reducing capacity increases pressure but that is only a flow reduction when the capacity drops far enough that the existing system pressure cannot rise enough to maintain flow. At that point increased pump pressure would be needed to maintain flow or the volume then drops.

So you have a pump in your house? How does your pump know that you are blocking the water and not just opened the hose only halfway?

Pumps usually try to maintain a fixed pressure.. not a fixed amount of water flowing, no matter what pressure.

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I was quite busy lately (I moved) and so I missed all the fun... (and fortunately the nasty parts, too.)

I still feel like adding some remarks... (an optics related thread without me? No way ^_^ )

Be careful with analogies: Do a water hose and a flashlight really have that much in common? Try obstructing part of the beam - does the light come out at higher speed or throw farther? 
(There's some fun though: Cut out a disc of cardboard about 2/3-3/4 of the flashlight's aperture's diameter and use some removable glue to fix it in the center of the front lens, compare with&without ^_^ ) 

Use proper terminology: A big part of this discussion was caused by misunderstanding each other. That's the reason why terminology was invented - to make sure everyone is talking about the same.
("Brightness" btw is not that well defined... Earlier it was defined as luminance, nowadays it's recommended to use it for subjective, non-quantitative perception. I think it's safe to say that this fresnel mod gives a brighter spot. It might even be valid to say that the little experiment I supposed above might give a brighter spot, though I'd find that quite confusing to say ^_^ )

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NightCrawl wrote:

GottaZoom wrote:
NightCrawl wrote:

@GottaZoom: When you put your finger on the hose to make the jet smaller, less water flows. No matter what preconditions you assume, thats the case.

Hammertime! No, flow is a combination of pressure and capacity. Reducing capacity increases pressure but that is only a flow reduction when the capacity drops far enough that the existing system pressure cannot rise enough to maintain flow. At that point increased pump pressure would be needed to maintain flow or the volume then drops.

So you have a pump in your house? How does your pump know that you are blocking the water and not just opened the hose only halfway?

Pumps usually try to maintain a fixed pressure.. not a fixed amount of water flowing, no matter what pressure.

I’ll try to help here. Feel free to step in GottaZoom. Simply stated, the issue arises when the hose id is larger than the supply. When that is the case pressure in the hose is LESS than pressure in the supply pipe. Therefore the pressure in the hose can rise when you put your finger over it until it hits the same pressure as the supply. Up until that point flow stays the same due to the pressure rise in the hose. It is after this point that the flow actually falls.

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I think we have different opinions about what "put your finger on the hose" means. That could explain most of the confusion..

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My science tells me the increase water velocity will make up for the decrease in flow area, i.e. flow rate stays the same. Common sense tells me when you adjust the faucet it takes longer to fill up containers. So I went out to the garage and open the faucet about half-way. Counted how long a small bucket filled up water coming out of the hose unhindered(took about 10 seconds). Emptied the same bucket and filled it up again but this time I partially blocked the end of the hose (about 75% blocked) and it took about 10 seconds also for the bucket to fill. I guess my results means I’m going to side with GottaZoom and NZShooter on the flow debate.

I like: walks on the beach, sushi and things that are paisley.

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Leelou wrote:
My science tells me the increase water velocity will make up for the decrease in flow area, i.e. flow rate stays the same. Common sense tells me when you adjust the faucet it takes longer to fill up containers. So I went out to the garage and open the faucet about half-way. Counted how long a small bucket filled up water coming out of the hose unhindered(took about 10 seconds). Emptied the same bucket and filled it up again but this time I partially blocked the end of the hose (about 75% blocked) and it took about 10 seconds also for the bucket to fill. I guess my results means I'm going to side with GottaZoom and NZShooter on the flow debate.

As DrJones pointed out, all this is irrelevant. The speed of light is fixed and can't be faster than it is. (Yes, I understand this oversimplifies it)

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DrJones wrote:

I was quite busy lately (I moved) and so I missed all the fun… (and fortunately the nasty parts, too.)

I still feel like adding some remarks… (an optics related thread without me? No way _ )

Be careful with analogies: Do a water hose and a flashlight really have that much in common? Try obstructing part of the beam – does the light come out at higher speed or throw farther? 
(There’s some fun though: Cut out a disc of cardboard about 2/3-3/4 of the flashlight’s aperture’s diameter and use some removable glue to fix it in the center of the front lens, compare with&without _

Use proper terminology: A big part of this discussion was caused by misunderstanding each other. That’s the reason why terminology was invented – to make sure everyone is talking about the same.
(“Brightness” btw is not that well defined… Earlier it was defined as luminance, nowadays it’s recommended to use it for subjective, non-quantitative perception. I think it’s safe to say that this fresnel mod gives a brighter spot. It might even be valid to say that the little experiment I supposed above might give a brighter spot, though I’d find that quite confusing to say _ )

i’m glad you can chime in on the subject Drjones.. maybe now we can put this all corrective term of brightness behind and move on the original purpose of this little experiment.. which is just an IDEA.
an idea that maybe can be use to further more testing and creation to brighter lights without spending a lot of money in the future Big Smile

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Never mind the science, common sense should tell you it would take longer to fill the bucket at 99% blocked.

I have always found it useful to exaggerate an issue to see it more clearly.

dchomak
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In electrical circuits, one can emulate a constant current source by having a high voltage power supply in series with a high resistor. For example a 300 volt source in series with a 300 ohm resistor will give 1 amp to a 1 ohm load. It will also give 1 amp to a 2 ohm, or 3 ohm load. In other words, it would appear to be a constant current source.

This water and hose example appears to be a constant flow source because the relatively high resistance of the length of garden hose. Within certain changes in the restrictions at the end it can appear as a constant flow source.

In the above electrical circuit, placing a higher resistance load it becomes apparent the the supply is NOT a constant current source. (a 600 ohm load will only draw 1/3 amp)

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NightCrawl]<p>[quote=GottaZoom][quote=NightCrawl wrote:
So you have a pump in your house? How does your pump know that you are blocking the water and not just opened the hose only halfway?

Pumps usually try to maintain a fixed pressure.. not a fixed amount of water flowing, no matter what pressure.

Our pump doesn’t care whether faucets are open or closed. It runs by timer because it is for irrigation and always has a form of pressure relief, regardless of whether the 2 garden hose faucets are open or closed. Thus it never has fixed pressure level, (unless I gate off the irrigation and close all of the faucets, in which case a pressure relief valve will open and hold pressure to protect the pump). Our system is more of a constant flow system, actually somewhat similar to the professors assumption (though we can tune for varying power, pressure, and thus output). Pumps generally won’t pump pressures greater than the system if it was built well. Generally a relief system is designed in (especially when built by someone smarter than me) to protect the pump and system. The primary risks in our system are a waste of energy and pump life.

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Um.. just wondering,can we go back to *my idea*and see how we can improve this idea into a better one? :Sp

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Leelou wrote:
My science tells me the increase water velocity will make up for the decrease in flow area, i.e. flow rate stays the same. Common sense tells me when you adjust the faucet it takes longer to fill up containers. So I went out to the garage and open the faucet about half-way. Counted how long a small bucket filled up water coming out of the hose unhindered(took about 10 seconds). Emptied the same bucket and filled it up again but this time I partially blocked the end of the hose (about 75% blocked) and it took about 10 seconds also for the bucket to fill. I guess my results means I’m going to side with GottaZoom and NZShooter on the flow debate.

Funny thing is you helped come to that conclusion by not opening the faucet all the way. Depending on other factors it might be different. It’s that complexity that keeps me asking questions.

While we practically cannot speed up light, most of us aren’t measuring speed. We’re observing volume in full or in part. Blocking the beam by redirection to change the locally observed volume is exactly the point of the thread. Sometimes an analogy is useful, if not exact.

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Here’s a short video of a fresnel lens moving in front of an UF2100 running on 20%:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wzn5-Rclmg

Quality isn’t the best because it’s a soft (flexible) lens and I just moved it with my hands. I left ambient light on to reduce brightness adjustments in my camera (compact camera, no manual settings)

However you see that it is indeed similar to a zoom light as there’s a position where LED and reflector are projected onto the wall. Near that position however there’s a position where that image is blurred into a quite good and quite bright spot.

Fresnel lenses are quite lossy, quite dome of the light is scattered at the edges. A real lens of same size would give a better performance, pot probably some more artifacts, too. Main contribution to throw is lens size and quality.
A high quality aspheric lens with same area and with a (bare) LED in it’s focus will have the best throw, but a smaller spot.

DayLighter
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DrJones wrote:
Here’s a short video of a fresnel lens moving in front of an UF2100 running on 20%:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wzn5-Rclmg

Quality isn’t the best because it’s a soft (flexible) lens and I just moved it with my hands. I left ambient light on to reduce brightness adjustments in my camera (compact camera, no manual settings)

However you see that it is indeed similar to a zoom light as there’s a position where LED and reflector are projected onto the wall. Near that position however there’s a position where that image is blurred into a quite good and quite bright spot.

Fresnel lenses are quite lossy, quite dome of the light is scattered at the edges. A real lens of same size would give a better performance, pot probably some more artifacts, too. Main contribution to throw is lens size and quality.
A high quality aspheric lens with same area and with a (bare) LED in it’s focus will have the best throw, but a smaller spot.

yeah, that was the base of my experiment, now i’m trying to move into adding combination of different lenses to see if i can manipulate lights into thrower or floodier ( for bike light)
i want to buil something like light device but in smaller scale Big Smile
maybe you can give me some input on these experiement, i found a success hooking my Trustfire WF 502B into telescope and it able to throw as far as 300’+, but the hotspot starting to dissappear and turn into a doughnut .. but it still reach Smile
now.. if i can somewhat miniaturize this device using combination of telescope optics ( which i have plenty of) that will be great

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

Dimbo The Blinky
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scaru wrote:

I certainly understand what you are saying, but science says otherwise. When science proves something wrong, I’m going to side with science. Always. 


So, did you construct the apparatus as the OP described? From what I read just now, it would appear that the experiment wasn’t repeated.

By ANYone.

Sorry to butt in, but I take exception to misuse of the “S” word…

ALL of you could do well to revisit the Michaelson-Morley experiment right about now…

Waves don’t travel, particles do. Where do they all go?

I’m just sayin…

But I’ll go back to reading, it’s only page 4…

Dim

“There is no darkness but ignorance.”

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