LightMalls BLF Custom Circuit Board (Project Fails Seeking New Vendor [relic38/FlashPilot Taking Over Idea])

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Flomotion
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LightMalls BLF Custom Circuit Board (Project Fails Seeking New Vendor [relic38/FlashPilot Taking Over Idea])

Bill Zeng sent me an email asking for specs on a Custom Build Circuit Board for BLF. Here is your chance, give me the specs…

So far this:

Hi Flomotion
tomorrow i will get 2 samples driver
at the mode: 100% – 35% – 10%, working current at 5A(the 3.7V battery must be good),3.7~4.2V
it can work on U3 and XM-L2 led emitter too
also please let me know what circuit board you need
i will make them separately for you
yesterday,i test the board at factory,i installed it with a U2 led emitter,and tested the lux,it is about 1000-Lumen(real,but not the max lumens)
for the sample driver,i want to use it on C12 and C8 flashlight,then i will check them
also i think this board can not be used at 501B and 502B,as its current is too much,5A,it is too much for the switch and others,i think if this board
work at the 501B,it will burn,but C8 and C12 will be no problem,right?

best regards
bill zeng

Flomotion

Edited by: Flomotion on 07/05/2013 - 10:23
Philipp
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Any information about PWM?

gords1001
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17mm or 20mm? 20mm would be very useful to me. Good mode spread too. Steve

relic38
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Sounds nice. It’s going in a C8 so it must be 17mm. I think the low should be lower, more like 5%. A moonlight mode would be nice too.
Finally, make sure the PWM is 4kHz or higher.

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17mm and please, lower the low. :bigsmile:

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What kind of driver? Buck, boost, linear?

Chicago X
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whokilledJR wrote:
What kind of driver? Buck, boost, linear?

relic38 wrote:
I think the low should be lower, more like 5%. A moonlight mode would be nice too. Finally, make sure the PWM is 4kHz or higher.

What they said. Wink

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Chicago X wrote:

whokilledJR wrote:
What kind of driver? Buck, boost, linear?

relic38 wrote:
I think the low should be lower, more like 5%. A moonlight mode would be nice too. Finally, make sure the PWM is 4kHz or higher.

What they said. Wink

What he said.  Oh yeah...17mm.  The perfect driver if it has all those features.  Amperage between 4A & 5A would be good.
Flomotion
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Ok, we have something going here, it is very, very, important to get across to the Chinese engineers, what we want. You may have to be rude, and to the point. They are going to design a driver at our specs, so get it right, or whine later. They are reading every post, so put some muscle into this, it has to be worth it for them to recover the development costs, the more ideas the better, if you have technical knowledge about components that you want to see on this board, say something, that is thermal sensors, software/hardware programmable voltage/amps, audio warnings indicators, i/o I don’t know if it is economically feasible to get too many bells and whistles, but this is our chance to one on one with Chinese engineers…so, go for it…

Flomotion

Gurthang
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17 mm NOT 20 mm

4 modes: moonlight; 0.1%, low; 1%, med; 30%, high; 100%

Max current; 4A

Buck driver; max input voltage 8.4 VDC minimum regulated voltage; 3.6 VDC

PWM; at least 3KHz, higher is better

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Texas instruments has some chips that might be the right ones. But IIRC those dont go much over 3A. If we want to stay in the 17mm size (P60 and most small flashlights), we have to keep it rather simple. Of course a 5A buck/boost circiut for 3-4.35V is possible, but that needs more components. I would be very happy with perfectly regulated 1.5A each for 3-4 Nichias (about 3.7Vf at 1.5A) and 3A for the XML2 (3.7Vf at 3A on copper PCB).

It all depends on what they actually want to design. I think a regulated buck/boost driver for 3-4.35V input and 3A @ 3.7V output is already a rather big challenge in a small form factor.

Temperature sensor would be cool, but only if it can be turned off or set to a custom temperature. I wouldnt mind the light dimming at 100°C before the solder melts, 60°C would be rather annoying tho.

 

If they already have a driver that can do 5A with the XML2 (which I doubt because it has a Vf of 4.2V at that current) on one cell, get some more info. If it only can push that current from 3.7-4.2V its rather worthless. At 5-6A current draw even the best cells will fall below 3.7V within about 6minutes. Also, ask about efficiency. If its only 50-60%, its worthless again..

TL;DR: We need a single cell driver. There are enough great multicell drivers out there.

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Gurthang wrote:
17 mm NOT 20 mm 4 modes: moonlight; 0.1%, low; 1%, med; 30%, high; 100% Max current; 4A Buck driver; max input voltage 8.4 VDC minimum regulated voltage; 3.6 VDC PWM; at least 3KHz, higher is better

^^ This!

=the=

 

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Why the hell do you want a buck driver for 3.6-8.4V? That would be useless for single cell lights.

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The biggest issue with a 4A+ linear driver is that it will not regulate for very long, especially on XM-L2. Doing a driver that is essentially crippled on what will be the most popular LED in the next few months doesn’t make sense.

For a single cell driver, boost would make sense. It would be DD when the cell is fully charged, then switch over to boost when VBatt drops below Vf of the emitter. I don’t think the DD portion would be insane current either (probably less than 5A).
For multicell, it’s obviously a buck driver. To keep the cost down, don’t do a buck/boost. Do the single cell first then consider the multi-cell driver later.

For modes and functionality, my preferences:
High: 100%, 4 Amps, adjustable via resistor mod
Med: 30%
Low: 4-5%
Moonlight: 0.1%
Option for hidden strobe and SOS as well; similar to the new NANJG without the small flash, just time it yourself.
Low voltage detect/cutoff (2.8V); drop to low and quick flash every 10 sec. About 3-5 minutes later, moonlight or turn off.

Tracking the proposals through the thread could get nightmarish, so just go with mine Wink so Flomotion, you may want to gather them up and tabulate the similar ideas. At some point you can get an idea for the most popular suggestions and submit the spec to them.
I also propose that, since this was your initiative, you retain final decision control.
Excellent work Flomotion! Looking forward to this one!

Edit: My free time is very limited, but I’d be willing to help with the MCU coding if necessary.

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18sixfifty
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4A Turbo (4A)-High(2A)-Medium(500)- low (50). 17mm.

I’m a junky, I mod lights so I can sell lights so I can buy more light to mod so I can sell lights to buy more lights to mod.

Flomotion
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relic38 wrote:
The biggest issue with a 4A+ linear driver is that it will not regulate for very long, especially on XM-L2. Doing a driver that is essentially crippled on what will be the most popular LED in the next few months doesn’t make sense.

For a single cell driver, boost would make sense. It would be DD when the cell is fully charged, then switch over to boost when VBatt drops below Vf of the emitter. I don’t think the DD portion would be insane current either (probably less than 5A).
For multicell, it’s obviously a buck driver. To keep the cost down, don’t do a buck/boost. Do the single cell first then consider the multi-cell driver later.

For modes and functionality, my preferences:
High: 100%, 4 Amps, adjustable via resistor mod
Med: 30%
Low: 4-5%
Moonlight: 0.1%
Option for hidden strobe and SOS as well; similar to the new NANJG without the small flash, just time it yourself.
Low voltage detect/cutoff (2.8V); drop to low and quick flash every 10 sec. About 3-5 minutes later, moonlight or turn off.

Tracking the proposals through the thread could get nightmarish, so just go with mine Wink so Flomotion, you may want to gather them up and tabulate the similar ideas. At some point you can get an idea for the most popular suggestions and submit the spec to them.
I also propose that, since this was your initiative, you retain final decision control.
Excellent work Flomotion! Looking forward to this one!

Edit: My free time is very limited, but I’d be willing to help with the MCU coding if necessary.

Me, likey… :bigsmile:

Flomotion

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Of course I look at it differently,

4 amp with a timed boost to 5 amp, timed for 30 seconds then back to 4 amp

1% low, 20%, 50%, 100% = 4 amp  and 5 amp boost, that's 5 modes. Hidden modes?, I don't care.

I don't worry about boost/buck because of using NiMHs. I would only use something like this in a 4AA NiMH light. Linear would be best in that case and 17mm diameter.

 

But, I'm the one percent, so in the long run, go for the best Li-ion driver and I'll keep adding chips to NANJG drivers. I think it sounds like a multiple cell driver if it's going to be all out 5 amps.

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I moved away from incandescent barn-burner flashlights because while they were bright as hell, regulation was difficult to come by and expensive to achieve. It is crucial that output can drop out of regulation to extend runtime and avoid sudden cut-offs, but I simply do not want a light that cannot perform consistently for the majority of runtime.
Now I will get on my high-horse.

Well, well, well. While convenient, AMC7135-based drivers rely on brute force to regulate by burning off perfectly good wattage in order to regulate output (sounds barbaric, no?). Furthermore, we have reasonable confirmation (kudos to match) of the XM-L2’s higher operating voltage suggested by the XM-L2 datasheet. The forward voltage of the XM-L2 is decidedly high at the elevated drive currents that we desire—even on a normal, non-SinkPAD MCPCB.

High-horse dismounted.

Match’s data and the XM-L2 datasheet suggest that its Vf at just 4.2A will prevent linear regulators from regulating output for very long, if at all, with 1×18650. And 5A? Forgetaboutit. Needless to say, it will impact the performance of unregulated drivers with PWM’d modes. The resistance introduced from being installed in a flashlight exacerbates the issue.

For these reasons, amongst others:

  • Critically, our wunderdriver needs to regulate at least 3.2A to an XM-L2 for V-in between 3.4V and 3.9V to properly utilize 1×18650.
  • While I’d also be tickled to buy 17mm switching buck regulators that can accept up to 9V and can fully regulate >4A output on two cells, our driver must outperform linear regulators when used with 1×18650 and XM-L2, period

Edit: I agree with relic38’s spec recommendations. RaceR86 sums things up in a compelling manner below.

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Flomotion wrote:
Me, likey… :bigsmile:

+1

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Zeus33 wrote:
Flomotion wrote:
Me, likey… :bigsmile:

+1

+2

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Planning and competitor circuits boards
First of all, what is already on the market, and how to come up with something that is either better, better and cheaper, or more useful?
We all seem to know the typical Nanjg 105c type drivers. Lots of options between modes and output current.
We have several cheaper direct drive curcuits.
We have various 3A,4A and 5A drivers sold from intl-outdoor/fasttech with more features (and taller size).
We have LD-25.

Basically, there are lots of 1-cell, 17mm driver options out there. As far as I know, none of which have a “boost circtuit”.
Why boost?


If we plan go go beyond 4A in combination with XM-L2 forward current is an issue when using a single cell. Especially if using a cooper star.
Even pushing 3-3,8A+ with XM-L2 is hard for a good protected cell. Just look at voltage drop after 20 min on the chart below and compare with forward voltage in the graph match made.

If the lightmalls driver should offer something more I think it should be a boost feature.
I would like to see following specs:
*Operating voltage: 2.7-4.5V
*Regulated 4,2A boost circuit
*Modes: 100% – 20% – 2% (remember guys, these values are from 5A, not 2-3 like most other circuit boards)
*Mode memory

Hopefully at price around 5$ and mounted on a single board. Everything on one side if possible. (I have no idea if that is realistic)

Optional features that could add 1$
*Reverse circuit protection
*Thick silicone wires
*Spring for positive connection to battery

When using one cell that would be a great driver for:
1 XM-L2
3-5 Nichia in parallel
2-4 XP-G2 in parallel

___________________

Naturally, I like Relic38 suggestion. Using boost.
I also like Slim Pickens suggestion and his thoughts about XM-L2.
I think XM-L2 and 3,5A+ should be the main goal, and also having features that makes it better suited than what is already out there.

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+1  +1  +1 for relic38 Smile.

We need more power for those XM-L2's! Definitely "boost" for a 1 battery C8. Now if they could use a PIC/MCU chip we can custom program, all the better!

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Latest from Bill Zeng:

He is reading the Posts, so if you have a comment to Bill, leave it here:

Dear Flomotion
I read the posts already,thank you very much!
like we talked ago,if we make the circuit board at 5A in 17MM,it is very difficult for using,also if want the current at 5A,it need very good condition
such as the good battery,good switch and copper mount with the led,so when the driver done,i think it can not up to 5A,don’t you think it is?
i think it can up to about 4A in 17MM board.
so i think i will make the following drivers
1): Voltage: Max4.2V – Single Li-ion Working current: Constant current Max in 5A,(depends on the other condition) Dia: 17MM Memory: Yes,with Memory mode Modes: High(100%) – Mid(30%) – Low(5%) please let me know we make the moonligh?(05%?,i went to factory and try 0.5%,we will not see anything if too low)

2): Voltage:3.7~15V three Li-ion Dia:20mmboard with 21mm Tailgate Working current: Max 9A With Memory mode Modes: High(100%) – Mid(30%) – Low(5%) please let me know we make the moonligh?(05%?,i went to factory and try 0.5%,we will not see anything if too low)

please give me some suggestion
thanks very much~

bill zeng

————————————————————————————————————————

Lightmalls – sales

Flomotion

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  • A ~17mm diameter, regulated 3.5A to 4A boost driver for 1×18650 will undoubtedly rock the P60 world. If these drivers can do that, they would be the only driver I would ever buy for making XM-L2 P60 dropins. If they are affordable and offer good regulation for the majority of runtime with XM-L2, I would buy several as soon they were available.
  • If Mr. Zeng is also having his engineers work on a buck driver, I put together some recommendations for specifications:
  1. Output between 5A and 5.5A (rather than 9A) is in-line with what BLF modding crowd wants in this new era of widespead SinkPADs. IMO, 5A would be a great drive current for XM-L2 on a SinkPAD PCB.
  2. Regulated voltage range should be 6.4V-16.8V (two to four cells).
  3. The driver should have low-voltage warnings for 2, 3 and 4 cells. Once V-battery drops to
  4. Nice to have, but superfluous: Shutting the light off and turning it back on between t=1 and t
  5. We should be able to alter the output current with an easy sense resistor swap, so the sense resistors should be easy to access with a soldering iron.

Of course, input from other members is welcome. Speak now or forever hold your peace Silly

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Let’s not get ahead of ourselves and throw pricing in the mix yet. There’s a tendency for the actual price to turn up close to whatever a customer hints at being comfortable with.
I would prefer Bill to come back with whatever pricing makes sense to his company and we (via Flomotion) can negotiate from there based on volume and tweaking the design.
Edit: Better, thanks Slim Pickens Wink

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relic38 wrote:
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves and throw pricing in the mix yet. There’s a tendency for the actual price to turn up close to whatever a customer hints at being comfortable with.
I would prefer Bill to come back with whatever pricing makes sense to his company and we (via Flomotion) can negotiate from there based on volume and tweaking the design.

^ Post updated to reflect truth Wink
I ant
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Definitely 17mm
Thermal kick-down at 90 C
Moon mode 0.2 lumens

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Am I the only one thinking something like Dr Jones luxdrv UI would be awesome? Code’s freely available (although they might need to recode if using something other than the ATtiny13A). It would take the UI into more widespread availability without having to DIY.

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Gurthang wrote:
17 mm NOT 20 mm

4 modes: moonlight; 0.1%, low; 1%, med; 30%, high; 100%

Max current; 4A

Buck driver; max input voltage 8.4 VDC minimum regulated voltage; 3.6 VDC

PWM; at least 3KHz, higher is better

I like this arrangement best (so long as one 18650 can give maximum brightness).

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Flomotion and Mr. Zing. This is great news and I believe the need for such drivers has been very long overdue. In keeping with what others have asked for in several other mod threads, I think there is a good market for 3 different regulated drivers:

1) 17mm regulated 4.2V 4A boost driver.

2) 20mm regulated 6-13V 5A driver

3) 20mm regulated 6-13V 10A driver

Details for each will hopefully include the following:

  • Great regulation and reliability is a must
  • Low voltage detection automatically changes to medium mode
  • Thermal overload protection at 90C automatically changes to medium mode
  • 4 mode with memory – 100/75/30/3%

I feel by far that most people do not want: strobe, SOS, blinking low voltage detection/thermal overload detection. Just automatically switching to medium mode and keep it there; will suffice without becoming an annoyance.

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Flomotion wrote:
Latest from Bill Zeng:

——-
so i think i will make the following drivers
1): Voltage: Max4.2V – Single Li-ion Working current: Constant current Max in 5A,(depends on the other condition) Dia: 17MM Memory: Yes,with Memory mode Modes: High(100%) – Mid(30%) – Low(5%) please let me know we make the moonligh?(05%?,i went to factory and try 0.5%,we will not see anything if too low)

2): Voltage:3.7~15V three Li-ion Dia:20mmboard with 21mm Tailgate Working current: Max 9A With Memory mode Modes: High(100%) – Mid(30%) – Low(5%) please let me know we make the moonligh?(05%?,i went to factory and try 0.5%,we will not see anything if too low)

please give me some suggestion
thanks very much~

bill zeng

————————————————————————————————————————

Lightmalls – sales

Driver 1. needs to be a boost driver as many have suggested. Regulated for sure. 4A or a bit more
Personally, I don’t want “moonlight” mode or more than 3 modes. Unless there is a hidden group.

Driver 2. I would prefer boost/buck. regulated @ 10A. But with the ability to remove resistors for less output. It should have 5 resistors that are easily accessible. About 1A less for each resistor removed would be genius. (if that is possible)

I am no fan of drivers that makes PWM whine . Please make it as silent as possible.

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