Am I just being a pansy about the whole li-ion thing?

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Pulsar
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if i remember right its called thermal runaway. when a full cell tries to compensate for a dead cell, it creates heat. when that heat gets to be too much is when you end up with a vent with flame… cant remember all the technical details… but thats the just of it. same if you have a cell short out while in a device. its the heat that ultimately causes the VWF

someone correct me if im wrong… as im sure i am

DENGOH
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If I remember right reading some university professor’s study on batteries, li-ion battery will have high chance of run away for condition below:
1.FULL charged and temperature above 65c.
2.60% charged and temperature above 80c.
Basically when there are more energy in the battery it will be more dangerous if temperature get higher. So make sure your li-ion batteries are cool is the key, either while charging or discharging.

cool i'll see you when you get there

Boaz
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 Some of the worst advice i've ever heard on the subject ..

       καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν

                            

       Dc-fix diffuser film  >…  http://budgetlightforum.com/node/42208

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       καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν

                            

       Dc-fix diffuser film  >…  http://budgetlightforum.com/node/42208

marcl
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JJ Findlayson wrote:
hazy wrote:
. Also like I said I don’t see myself using a multi-cell li-ion light either because from what I understand that is when you have the most potential for problems.

Again, a misconception.
If a cell is bad, it is bad. If you are going to buy quality, as you say, you will have no more chance of a mishap with any particular light of any configuration, than another.
The ‘in series are more dangerous’ camp are partly right. By that, there is a chance you may by accident put a cell in backwards, or put one dead one charged into a light.

*The ‘potential’ for problem is the user – not the technology, if you use good stuff, and are prepared to ensure the cells go in the right way *.

It’s like anything – the dumber you are with it, the more “potential” for danger.
Hell, there will be literally hundreds of thousands of LiIon owners who will treat their LiIons as they do any other cell.
Have no fear, multi cell failures are rare – and usually by random chance. Like anything.

This is my point. I have 6 Sanyo cells all the same age. One has gone bad, way below what it should be. Now in a multi cell light you would not know it was going bad, you couldn’t, you may see some run time problems, but which cell? If you did not notice a problem with the run times, which is very possible if you use the torch for 10/15 mins at a time. Then you will be in trouble.

The fact that you have not had any problems so far does not mean you are being safe or doing it right.

So to the OP You MUST get a DMM! They are cheap. And get good cells, the charger doesn’t have to be expensive, mine are cheap, but because I have a DMM, I can check that the charger is doing exactly what it should. JJ Findlayson Cannot. So if his very expensive charger decides to charge above 4.25v, he will be unaware of the fact until it is too late.

Marc.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!

tabetha
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JJ Findlayson wrote:
tabetha wrote:
You’re being a wuss, imo. I’ve been using these batts, as well as nimh/nicd for years, only ever had one batt go bang, and that was a button cell one that I was putting into my car alarm fob, door bell rang I didn’t notice that I’d put it down on some water, heard a fizz then bang, never did find all the bits. I don’t measure my cells voltage, to my mid that is the job of the charger, I use different brands, always have done, but do ensure they have all just been charged prior to use so equal capacity. tabs

Yeah, I agree. But somehow when I say stuff like that ( almost exactly the same, infact, and very recently ) all the fires of hell rain upon me. I get abused and spoken down to.

Come on people? Where is the equality ? Toph ? You wanna come battle this chick?? Be the big man ( you tried to be ) dominating me??

Good on you all, I love different rules for different people. Not.


Different people have different ideas, the “safe” way does not always work perfectly, bit like people worrying that the plane is going to crash, despite the FACT that statistically they were more likely to get injured/killed driving to the airport!!
If you have an opinion express it is my motto, esp when it has been asked for, I get slated for calling the veyron a badged up skoda, it’s a hell of a car, but to my mind no where near as impressive as the Maccy F1, just my opinion of course, others have theirs, don’t ever be afraid to express yours, otherwise you become another sheep, and there are way too many of them in the world imo.
tabs
warmurf
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The only advise I’d give is buy the best batteries and charger you can afford. Stay away from cheap 18650s- any battery with a “Fire” in it is suss. Go with known brands like Panasonic, Eagletac etc. Then you’ll have little to worry about.

Chicago X
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tabetha wrote:
...I get slated for calling the veyron a badged up skoda, it's a hell of a car, but to my mind no where near as impressive as the Maccy F1...

The McLaren F1 can carry 50% more human cargo, and should win out by that metric alone.  Tongue Out

I would 100% own the F1 over the Veyron...please send me your donations now!

http://wardogsmakingithome.org/index.html

War Dogs, Making it Home - Rescue Dogs for Returning Vets

tabetha
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Chicago X wrote:

tabetha wrote:
…I get slated for calling the veyron a badged up skoda, it’s a hell of a car, but to my mind no where near as impressive as the Maccy F1…

The McLaren F1 can carry 50% more human cargo, and should win out by that metric alone.  Tongue Out

I would 100% own the F1 over the Veyron…please send me your donations now!


NO, I should get the donations first ha ha.
I just can’t get my head around the amount of technology and time difference between the two, then how little difference in performance, personally I’d have a Mosler over the F1, maybe just cause me NZ mate used to work on them in Norfolk, before they moved to Cambridge(both UK), he now makes looms etc for Caterham F1, about 5 miles down the road from me.
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jvarn81
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JJ Findlayson wrote:
Again, a misconception. If a cell is bad, it is bad. If you are going to buy quality, as you say, you will have no more chance of a mishap with any particular light of any configuration, than another. The ‘in series are more dangerous’ camp are partly right. By that, there is a chance you may by accident put a cell in backwards, or put one dead one charged into a light.

*The ‘potential’ for problem is the user – not the technology, if you use good stuff, and are prepared to ensure the cells go in the right way *.

It’s like anything – the dumber you are with it, the more “potential” for danger. Hell, there will be literally hundreds of thousands of LiIon owners who will treat their LiIons as they do any other cell. Have no fear, multi cell failures are rare – and usually by random chance. Like anything

Why are you so against getting a cheap DMM, I seen you post in the other thread too. They are cheap, and you can check the voltage so quick and easy, I don’t get it. Then you flame people who don’t agree with you.

Look up the thread about the TK monster explosion, un-matched cells……….BOOOOM. Pipe bomb. Your fingers are gone. Arguing about not needing a DMM doesn’t make sense. Sure you don’t NEED it, but why not to check stuff now and again.

FlashPilot
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Bort wrote:
FlashPilot wrote:
The laws of averages and statistics eventually trumps a large stupid presumptuous ego.

You would think, but i know many people who defy the averages so amazingly well that they must be sucking their good fortune from others (to make the average work out)

Ive thought the same thing at times. Lets just hope other innocent people within range dont get ripped apart in the process.
Don
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The probability of catastrophic failure is low.

The consequences of a catastrophic failure can be hugely expensive. Or lethal.

Your choice.

And your consequences!

Me – I’m not a wuss about lithium cells. And none of mine that haven’t been provoked (As in charging a 10440 at 50 amps – this is going to go bang even with inert components – work out the energy) have failed catastrophically.

But if they do, it is going to be very bad.

I’ve had a lot of lithium ion cells die – they live for around three-five years from the day they were made till the day they die whether they are used or not.

None of them that weren’t deliberately misused has failed in a bad way. All of the ones I’ve deliberately misused have failed in a very, very bad way. The by-products of catastrophic failure are lethal. So don’t be bad to your cells.

 

The numbers from my light tests are always to be found here.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApkFM37n_QnRdDU5MDNzOURjYllmZHI...

gords1001
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personally, I’m not religious about checking voltage. on my single cell edc’s, they all run protected cells and drivers with low voltage warning, the cells always get charged before warning, mainly because if I get my charger out, I charge everything.

what I do always check are my high draw multi cell lights, both when the cells come out and when they leave the charger.

this usually also leads to checking tailcap currents, again, it may be pointless but it may give me an idea if somethings up.

If someone does not wish to do this, that’s their bag, I just do what suits me. I spend more time checking things when I’ve just built a light, once it seems to be working as it should, I tend to put it to work and get on with my life.

I do think that a lot depends on usage, I check my edc’s less because they tend to not be used harshly – always memory low. I also strap a c8 to my head daily, that’s how worried I truly am about the whole thing.

I say, bone up on everything you can, use decent cells, a charger you have personally verified is good and operate some common sense, you should be ok. Abuse things and at some point, you wont be.

I also dont think the culture of warning people about the dangers should change, if someone had an accident as a result of some inferred advice on my part, I wouldn’t sleep tbh, I’d rather be too harsh than too lenient about the potential risks.

B42
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I dont know, I kinda like the “not for beginners”, it may keep people on the trail from blinding me like I accidentally blind them at times Wink

I just look at it as a risk assessment and figure out what the risk is, and what you can do to lessen each risk.

First off, the risk is extremely low: How many hundreds of thousands (millions/10s of millions) of cheap batteries are sold online so far? I live in America, news organizations would fall all over themselves to tell us if even one person died from a Li-ion battery exploding…yet I don’t hear about this, and when I search and find a story about an “exploding” Li-ion, it usually ends up being a “outgassing” battery, more of a pressurized flame, not an explosion. I have found one story with a bad cell phone battery that exploded and killed a guy…a cheap copy Chinese battery…the rest are “near misses” and when you dig into the story it seems they all have a common thread: cheap batteries and a warning sign that is ignored. So: I charge when I’m around in the kitchen, I monitor my batteries for temperature/flashlight runtime (hand on light for temp is common sense), not use cheap Chinese batteries, use protected batteries to prevent over/under charge and occasionally check with a voltmeter when possible as an added precaution. Since I’ve never heard of anyone doing this being killed or maimed by a Li-ion in a light, I think its an acceptable risk, but there is STILL a risk, but its very very small. And, there is risk with almost every choice you make. Probably hiking in the dark without a powerful light could make me come across or be vulnerable to higher probability dangers than with one, all things considered.

Now even though they dont seem to really literally explode often, its pressure we are playing with which can make a grenade, I’ve seen pictures of what parts of the light in an exploding light do to metal objects they hit and I like multi cell lights best, so again: I only use protected cells, no Chinese cheapos, I monitor and I will know when my battery run time decreases because I tend to time my hikes/walks and notice if I’m left with a dimmer light (or in the dark), I open and re-check a light I haven’t used for a bit to make sure of battery alignment. As an added precaution I try to check them with a voltmeter when they come off the charger, especially as they age. The only other precaution I could see to take would be maybe drilling a small hole in each light so I have a possible flamethrower instead of a metal projectile if all other precautions fail.

All in all its a tiny risk, but I still try to minimize it, and then don’t really worry about it after my precautions. One is probably millions of times more likely to get hit by a car fiddling with your light as you cross the street than having one blow up, but I still cross the street (while aiming the light in the general direction of oncoming cars as I cross). So I understand both perspectives: yeah the risk is so low one can downplay it, since many daily activities you do are more likely to get you killed, but I would say you should always warn people of any risk you know of, and I’m not going to completely ignore any risk of serious injury I can do something about, but minimize what I can with reasonable effort and certainty (drilling holes in my lights = meh…but the rest, of course).

southland
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YES

whokilledJR
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Chicago X wrote:

tabetha wrote:
…I get slated for calling the veyron a badged up skoda, it’s a hell of a car, but to my mind no where near as impressive as the Maccy F1…

The McLaren F1 can carry 50% more human cargo, and should win out by that metric alone.  Tongue Out

I would 100% own the F1 over the Veyron…please send me your donations now!

+1 on the McLaren F1, but not after Mr Bean gets his hands on it!

Farside
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jvarn81 wrote:
Look up the thread about the TK monster explosion,

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?262234-TK-Monster-Exp...

Interesting.
I noticed this claim from the maker of them, right at the beginning of it all…

“This light will blow away 99.999999% of the handheld light available in both the production and custom market.”
http://tinyurl.com/TKMonster-pitch
He certainly wasn’t kidding about that. I’d say it didn’t reach 99.99% though; just about 90%, with nothing but scrap left.

panthervision23
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Popular brands are more likely to be safer than the least popular ones. I think you’ll be okay. If not, then buy another one if you feel you should.

B42
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Tks for the link Farside, and yeah that’s scary, especially with the size of it.! However, if you read and go through the safety posts of what I said I do to try to be safe with my lights, he did a bunch of things that violate that safety. He charged up cells that had NO charge, he used the cells after they came from zero to full charge “shortly“? (very suspicious/indicative of something wrong), he used them in a 8 cell light (bigger possible explosion, more danger/care necessary), he did not check the cells with a voltmeter after they came off the charger, and I’ll bet they weren’t protected cells (they probably needed a lot of current thus unprotected cells for that many lumen light). Plus he didn’t drill a hole in the light for pressure release….yeah I dont do that one either…but it seems like maybe these big cell lights need such a hole in the device for people who refuse to follow any safety or get one not knowing what they are doing.

I’ll have to read more on the following posts later, and yeah that kind of stuff makes people rightly scared, but the way to deal with that risk would to be not to ignore safety and be conscious of the rules of dealing with Li-ion cells, which he didn’t do on many points just by a cursory look! Scary, really makes you think about whether you want to use multi cell lights, and glad he didnt die (could have definitely), but again, and not to say “nyah nyah I’m right” but to highlight the need for safety: he didn’t follow ANY safety precautions from what he wrote…not one! (cell condition matching in the beginning, using protected cells esp. in multi-cell lights, throwing out cells (or at least putting aside for more checking cells) that act suspicious and checking the voltage after coming off the charger…and….8 cells amplifies the importance of all of the previous!) Each of those safety issues he violated would have stopped this from happening. I think its important in each instance we hear about like this that we find exactly what happened and ask yourself and others if your “procedure” would have stopped it from occurring: if so…carry on….if not…are you doing something wrong? — find it fast before using again!

EDIT: And again, the above is MY pattern for dealing with risk, I cant recommend it for you — get your own! Make a list and learn the risks and “possible solutions” for them. If you dont want to check cells that’s one thing, if you want to treat them like regular batteries maybe just get regular battery lights only…each ignored safety precaution should step you down from maybe you shouldn’t play with big multi celled lights, to maybe no Li-ions at all? Calculate the risks for yourself. For me, I see quite a few things he violated. And I’m not sure I’d carry an 8 cell light even if I were following all safety procedures to the letter…too much explosive power.

luvlites
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Yes. Very few things in life are without risk. Buy quality batteries, a good charger, maybe a DMM, take reasonable precautions and have fun.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?262234-TK-Monster-Exp...

RE: the above thread… too bad it happened but some of the comments are way out of proportion bordering on hilarious. Like:

“I was in shock with so much glass around me”… “WTF, dcaprilia this terrifying”… “I think one of the most tragic things about this”

In shock? Terrifying? Tragic? PLEASE. These people need to leave their bubble.

B42
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Yeah, its dramatized for sure. But I think its a good way to get safety into people’s minds: nothing like being “scared straight” on how to deal with Li-ions. Helps me at least, I re-think how would I avoid the situation. The ironic thing is, he didnt even need a multimeter or anything but normal precaution to determine something was wrong, he had it all in his first post, he just ignored the signs: he realized the cells were DOA (= dont use, send em back) and he put them on the charger and “shortly” they were “fully charged” (= somethings wrong dont use, set aside and check at least). Even though I can see how I’d avoid his problem in many ways, it still makes me think about my past idea about drilling a hole in my 3× 18650 and 3× 26650 lights to allow venting…almost idiot proofs them.

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