INTL-OUTDOOR Direct-Thermal Copper MCPCB Review

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moderator007
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I have looked at PilotPTK’s pics several times. I have milled something similar before. Looking at the pics, those conductive pads for the + and – pads for the led to solder to would be very hard to machine the way they are shapped. Those pads are tiny and very detailed with various curves and 90 degree corners in the pics. End mills cut round corners when you run into a 90 degree inside turn. Seems to be to much detail to be machined. Not impossible but on a cost perspective, expensive. Copper is not a very friendly machined material either. My guess is these are pressed with a hydraulic press that has a stamp that leaves the protruding impression when under extreme pressure. Something similar to this. http://www.metalmagic.com/copper/
Just my guess. Smile

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Like a coin press.

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moderator007
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Yes, I kind of mentioned it post #4. It’s possible It could be molded but from a cost stand point I would think pressed.

PilotPTK
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moderator007 wrote:
Yes, I kind of mentioned it post #4. It’s possible It could be molded but from a cost stand point I would think pressed.

This is my guess as well. At just a bit over a buck each, I can’t see how they could possibly afford ANY machining time.

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moderator007 wrote:
… Looking at the pics, those conductive pads for the + and – pads for the led to solder to would be very hard to machine the way they are shapped. …

The + and – pads are not connected to, or part of, the base. They are traces applied to the top of the dielectric layer.
My guess is they milled the top to form the center pad only, then applied the dielectric layer.
I base this guess on the very rough look of the surface under the dielectric layer that PPtk cut away.

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When are these going to be available? I NEED them!!! :bigsmile:

moderator007
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relic38 wrote:
moderator007 wrote:
… Looking at the pics, those conductive pads for the + and – pads for the led to solder to would be very hard to machine the way they are shapped. …

The + and – pads are not connected to, or part of, the base. They are traces applied to the top of the dielectric layer.
My guess is they milled the top to form the center pad only, then applied the dielectric layer.
I base this guess on the very rough look of the surface under the dielectric layer that PPtk cut away.

Ya I new that, (WTH was I thinking) the gold must have been affecting my brain. Sad
Now that I have recovered, I noticed in the pics that the sides of the raised led pad seems to have a slight angle towards the inside. Meaning if it had been milled they would have had to have used a tapered end mill. It would have been very small and custom made. Stamping on the other hand, would have benefited from the slight inward angle on the center pad. It would have helped release the Cooper board once the stamp is pulled away. Molding the board would have also benefited from the center being angled for the same reason.
.
PilotPTK, does the sides of the led pad appear to be leaning in slightly or or is the gold playing tricks on me again? :bigsmile:
PilotPTK
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moderator007 wrote:
PilotPTK, does the sides of the led pad appear to be leaning in slightly or or is the gold playing tricks on me again? :bigsmile:

Yes, they are definitely tapered/drafted with a small radius where the slug meets the base. This is one of the reasons I believe the whole thing is stamped.

PPtk

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PilotPTK wrote:
moderator007 wrote:
PilotPTK, does the sides of the led pad appear to be leaning in slightly or or is the gold playing tricks on me again? :bigsmile:
Yes, they are definitely tapered/drafted with a small radius where the slug meets the base. This is one of the reasons I believe the whole thing is stamped. PPtk
There is no doubt that these are pressed and not milled.  Milling would be hugely expensive and wasteful.  Stamping would ridiculously easy, 1000 times more efficient, and allow large production rates.
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At $1.84 ea I will be trying these out. Guess I’ll be just one more compiling an order with other parts when these become available. Now if I could just find someone to make me a copper pill for my HD2010!

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DBCstm wrote:
At $1.84 ea I will be trying these out. Guess I'll be just one more compiling an order with other parts when these become available. Now if I could just find someone to make me a copper pill for my HD2010!

ventureofblood was considering it.  Maybe we should start a HD2010 copper pill interest thread to give him an idea of how many people would buy one.

The low mode should be lower.

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You might want to talk with him to see if he would like to make those. He mentioned that he might do something like that after he finishes up the Uf-T20 copper pills.

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Now available for sale

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Ordered!!

troisanh
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thanks for heads up, put in order for some to test.

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I ordered a set to try too. Thanks for the heads up Bort. Wink

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Pilot,

Thanks for posting about these.  I would have been skeptical of the quality had you not given your stamp of approval ( which IMHO carries a lot of weight when it comes to any of this kind of stuff ).

 

Hank really has an advantage over many of the other China dealers if you ask me.   First off his English is a lot better.    Second he truly understands the market.  He knows how to get the QUALITY up  and still keep the prices down.

 

leaftye wrote:

DBCstm wrote:
At $1.84 ea I will be trying these out. Guess I'll be just one more compiling an order with other parts when these become available. Now if I could just find someone to make me a copper pill for my HD2010!

ventureofblood was considering it.  Maybe we should start a HD2010 copper pill interest thread to give him an idea of how many people would buy one.

I hear you guys:)   

Right now there has been a slight delay of progress on this because the half nuts on my lathe wore out again ( you need these for cutting threads)    I will have to either order another from china or find a way to repair the old ones.

Meanwhile I may look around to see if I can pick up some of the lights people are asking about, that way I can get the pill in hand and decide if a run of copper slugs is doable.

I probly wont start a feeler thread for them until I at least get the lights in hand.

I do love your enthusiasm.

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Again, said it before, I'm in for at least two HD 2010 copper pills! Understand though, VOB, take good care of that lathe, we don't want to burn it out any further!

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vestureofblood wrote:
Right now there has been a slight delay of progress on this because the half nuts on my lathe wore out again ( you need these for cutting threads)    I will have to either order another from china or find a way to repair the old ones.

not sure if this helps, but I saw a very neat thread (ba bam!) on homeshopmachinist a while back about making your own half nuts. I can’t remember the exact process, but the gist of it was to use some delrin tube cut in half length ways so it fitted within the metal shell (?), then clamped around the lead screw (or equivalent rod with same pitch and diameter) which was then heated with a blow torch while clamping down on the delrin. By the looks of it, the delrin softened enough to form into the threads. It’s a bit hazy I’m afraid, which isn’t helped by the fact that my lathe doesn’t have a lead screw (or half nuts!) so it’s a somewhat magical dreamed about lathe part that I don’t understand.

Either way, it sounded pretty neat Smile

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if I put solder in the hole of the sinkpad will it be better than heat conductive paste??
does the 2 degrees higher temp make the sinkpads a lot worse?

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You won’t notice any difference in real world application georgek.
It’s theoretical maximum temperature at some spot that has 2°C difference in the theoretical model.

Sure flat is better but it’s not like going from Aluminum to Copper :bigsmile:

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JackCY wrote:
You won't notice any difference in real world application georgek.

The same can be said about having and XM-L at 2.6A and at 3A, no real difference in real world application...

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Hikelite wrote:

JackCY wrote:
You won’t notice any difference in real world application georgek.

The same can be said about having and XM-L at 2.6A and at 3A, no real difference in real world application…


only about 100 lumens, shining it on your wall won’t matter much, but outside 100 more lumens makes slightly more difference

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Bort wrote:
Hikelite wrote:

JackCY wrote:
You won't notice any difference in real world application georgek.

The same can be said about having and XM-L at 2.6A and at 3A, no real difference in real world application...

only about 100 lumens, shining it on your wall won't matter much, but outside 100 more lumens makes slightly more difference

I don't shine lights on the wall... I only care about outside but that is not the point.

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Hikelite wrote:

Bort wrote:
Hikelite wrote:

JackCY wrote:
You won’t notice any difference in real world application georgek.

The same can be said about having and XM-L at 2.6A and at 3A, no real difference in real world application…

only about 100 lumens, shining it on your wall won’t matter much, but outside 100 more lumens makes slightly more difference

I don’t shine lights on the wall… I only care about outside but that is not the point.


i agree with your original point that the sinkpad vs noctigon won’t have much real world difference, but your 100 lumen less example i disagree with

The Journal of Alternative Facts TM

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I concur with Bort. Just fill the void of the SinkPAD board with a CPU silver paste and that’s it, or solder it and then polish the bottom flat.

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but these noctigons are two for the price of one sinkpad. and with better thermal design, it almost makes me wonder why anyone would purchase a sinkpad again
not saying toss your sinkpad and buy the noctigon, but just makes sense for future purchases

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Exactly. Makes more sense for future purchase since they are cheaper and “better”.

However, cost aside, both will function with relatively little difference. I think the analogy of 2.6A vs 3.0A is a flawed comparison. There is a noticeable difference there.

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I was trying to say let's not ignore a small difference (2Celsius), mostly thinking on the number itself 2.6 vs 3, not the current itself 2.6A 3A.  I was ironic in that post. I actually like to get the best out of everything, like AR coated lens even if I gain only 5% more light transmission, that 5% is not a standard of course, quality of the AR or single and double sided ca make a difference in gains, or even poor uncoated original can make a higher percentage gain.

 

 

JackCY
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Pulsar wrote:
but these noctigons are two for the price of one sinkpad. and with better thermal design, it almost makes me wonder why anyone would purchase a sinkpad again
not saying toss your sinkpad and buy the noctigon, but just makes sense for future purchases

Depends how you get your SinkPADs, but yes they cost something usually.
Anybody knows a website of Noctigon? Couldn’t find it.

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