Snobbish behavior

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Nautic
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Snobbish behavior

Hi

 

I visit other flashlight forums, as I presume you all do. On one of the really big ones I become

more and more frustrated with the attitude you experience there.

 

Some admins acts as they are Gods: Removing posts, warning posters of being banned, redicule

some wellknown Chinese firms and their products.

 

Some (mostly american) posters are not much better. Some have a very snobbish behavior towards

lights not made in America. Some also warning others not to sell to customers outside USA, as if

we are all crooks and thieves.

 

I may be wrong but I take it that flashlight forums are for discussing flashligts no matter were they

are made. But some peoble seems to think that budget lights are all crap. I like this forum as here

you can debate the lights for what they are, not for where they are made.

 

Is it me or???

Cheap quality is good - Expensive crap isn´t

Don
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Clearly Profit Focussed is just that. If you don't want to be an unpaid helper of the money machine then there are better places. Quite a few of them actually. There is a hug amount of excellent information in there - but it is getting harder and harder to get to useful information in there as the search is a disaster and a lot of excellent content has been lost during various reorganisations of the board and its software.

 

I spent ages looking for some very relevant information from 2006 in a half remembered thread and gave up - many of the search links went to stuff since the last reorganisation and old content seems to be buried. Or just thrown away. That was for a truly ludicrous device - a 12D Mag with an 8" reflector which got a lot of comment in 2005 or 2006.

 

It is a pity the way the other place has gone really.

 

The numbers from my light tests are always to be found here.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApkFM37n_QnRdDU5MDNzOURjYllmZHI...

sb56637
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Good points Nautic, I also am personally annoyed by the same attitudes and overly-controlling policies that you mention.  It's a good example of how we should NOT be, so let's try to learn from their mistakes and not repeat them.

 

I imagine a lot of North American manufacturing workers are still smarting from the loss of North American manufacturing jobs to Asia.  As a result, they hate Asian products and their products with a vengeance.  But, one really to has to face the reality: the global economy is here to stay in this present system.  There have been a lot of junky products out of North America, and there have been a lot of junky products out of China.  But these days, a lot of the most wildly popular products by respected companies are made in Asia, the iPhone being the most prominent example.  And, whether they like it or not, most of the popular flashlight brands are made in China.  See the following pages for Fenix, NiteCore, Solarforce, and Quark, and search for the word "China" within the page. Yet, the most hardened flashlight critic has to admit that those brands are, well, "shining" examples of exquisite engineering and manufacturing. In the same way, many of the budget flashlights that are consistently scorned on other forums actually come very close to the those name brands in quality, for a much better price. The real difference is that the budget lights don't try to hide the fact that they're made in China.  And the price.  So, to each his own, but I think that the budget lights fill an important niche in the market.

 

As far as the policies on other forums, I imagine that much of that nonsense is actually owing to the fools who have posted spam and caused so many problems on those forums, and they have adapted drastic policies against them.  But there's no excuse for belittling and heavy-handedly modding legitimate members who just want to discuss flashlights.  I personally am most annoyed by the feeling that they will try to label me as a promoter of some product if I refer to it too directly.  Therefore when I post on those forums I have to say, "Hi, I wanted to get your opinion on the SomethingFire X-123, sold at a certain site that starts with the letter D".  Here that won't happen.  Please post direct links to anything relevant to flashlights, as long as it doesn't contain nasty images or illegal material, it's game here on BLF.  I personally don't live in the USA at the moment, so I also find it offensive to suggest that anyone outside of the USA must be a thief or a crook.  What a shame.  And on a practical note, shipping is so expensive to where I live that I can't really buy from an American seller even I want to.  I don't know how China does it, but they have shipped me many nice flashlights to a backwoods town in South America for the princely shipping cost of $0.00.  That's the deal breaker for me.

 

So post away, thanks to everyone so far for the polite, respectful attitude and your insightful comments about budget flashlights.  If there's any legitimate way to spread the word about BudgetLightForum then go for it.  And if you have any comments to improve the site, please let me know!

Budget Light Forum ...where Frugal meets with Flashlight!

brted
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They are victim of their own success. There are just so many threads built up over the years, that searching them sometimes just isn't useful (you're using Gooogle search, right? that helps anyway vs. the built-in search). I agree that sifting through the information can be very frustrating, but there is definitely great information there.

As for the anti-China bias, if you buy a light for $150, then you would feel like an idiot if someone else was buying a $20 light that was just as good. So they go to great lengths to point out the deficiencies of the budget lights. But there is big premium for quality, customer service, and middle men. Ultimately most of the LED's are from the same places. In their defense, they have made a decision to pay that premium; they think that is the right decision for them; and they feel it is the right decision for others. That's all advice is. Also, I think a lot of flashlight people in the US are also big into guns, so there are some extreme conservatives and part of that is a pro-USA, anti-foreign mentality. It isn't that offensive in a US-only discussion area, but is not going to sit well in an international discussion area. Their moderators do try to shut down bashing after a certain point.

This morning I was reading a post where a guy in their budget forum said he wanted a AAA light from DealExtreme and named two models he was looking at but said he would consider others. The first two responses suggested more expensive lights not available on DealExtreme that would cost even more if shipped outside the USA. Responses like that ignore what the guy wanted and seem ignorant of the hassles of getting iTP's and Maratec's outside the US. Even though I like those lights, the answers aren't helpful by themselves.

sb56637
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brted wrote:
But there is big premium for quality, customer service, and middle men.

Hmm, yes, you're right about customer service.  That is admittedly a major deficiency of the budget lights.  I used to have a Maglite, and if I remember correctly they had a toll-free customer service hotline.  But that obviously costs, even if it's a foreign worker.

Budget Light Forum ...where Frugal meets with Flashlight!

Don
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Sometimes the expensive stuff isn't any better on support. A lot of the silly expensive custom stuff comes from 1 person outfits. Who may, or may not, be responsive and helpful

 

A story from a previous life 30 years ago when I sold cameras. A rather famous photographer was looking for a Pentax 6x7 a hideously expensive and truly wonderful camera - probably would cost $9000 at todays prices so not a piece of cheap junk. He already had six of them. What did he want with another one? (A strange thing for me to say since I was on commission, but I actually wanted to know why he had so many of the things)

 

So that one of the (multiple expletives deleted) things would be working when he needed it to. They did give good results but they were about as reliable as a 40 year old Trabant.

 

Customer service done right is usually one of the first casualties of "efficiency" drives where the quarterly financials are all that matter - or in other words most public companies.

 

I imagine the DX's of this world are making good money or there wouldn't be so many of them. Odd that there's so much competition in one of the world's most tightly regulated economies.

 

Anyway, off to collect the hound from her haircut. I may add that the haircut will cost about the same as my last 5 lights. Couldn't afford doggie haircuts and expensive lights.

 

The numbers from my light tests are always to be found here.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApkFM37n_QnRdDU5MDNzOURjYllmZHI...

alfreddajero
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I can assure you that this forum so far is not like that.......Im sure with more members things will change.  I am enjoying my stay here and it has been a pleasure to  ask something and not be ridiculed for my question.  Im just glad that there is truly a forum that we all can go and chat about lights.Sealed

With Darkness, there will always be Light.

 

 

Nautic
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Thank You for all comments in this thread. Im happy that im not alone with my opinion.

Lets hope they do something about it themselves, but im not optimistic on that one.

Cheap quality is good - Expensive crap isn´t

Don
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Nautic wrote:

Thank You for all comments in this thread. Im happy that im not alone with my opinion.

Lets hope they do something about it themselves, but im not optimistic on that one.

 

Since it has noticeably deteriorated in the last five years, I'm not optimistic either. People have been leaving for quite some time. Look at the number of registered users against the number of active users.

This is a huge pity as there is an enormous amount of good information in there, albeit pretty hard to find at times.

 

The numbers from my light tests are always to be found here.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApkFM37n_QnRdDU5MDNzOURjYllmZHI...

alfreddajero
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It just sucks that you cant even ask a question over there without some member, sometimes many to tell you to do a search.Yell   Most of the time a member just wants a quick reply and not have to go through all that reading.

With Darkness, there will always be Light.

 

 

brted
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They get some stupid questions though, too. In the Batteries section today somebody asked if anode was positive or negative. They couldn't look that up online somewhere? Or use a dictionary? I didn't even read the post, just the subject line, so maybe there was more to it.

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I just had to look it up.....it seems there was more to it.  It seems that anode can go both ways + or -.

With Darkness, there will always be Light.

 

 

Don
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The anode is where oxidation happens - oxidation involves loss of electrons. Electrons are negatively charged. i.e., it is going positive. As far as I'm concerned, the anode is invariably positive.

 

Physicists may see it differently, I don't. Though, when you are charging a cell it is the other way round. In the real world this is irrelevant.

 

RG COLA - Reduction - Gain of electrons - Cathode - Oxidation - Loss of electrons - Anode

At least that's what they taught me 35 years ago.

 

The numbers from my light tests are always to be found here.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApkFM37n_QnRdDU5MDNzOURjYllmZHI...

alfreddajero
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I know what you mean....for me it means + as well......same as you thats what i was taught back in school.  I find it funny that some of the members there get all analytical about some of the questions.

With Darkness, there will always be Light.

 

 

brted
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alfreddajero wrote:

I just had to look it up.....it seems there was more to it.  It seems that anode can go both ways + or -.

 

I didn't mean it wasn't a hard question, just that something like that is so easy to look up on Wikipedia. Like asking people what the capital of Madagascar is. Some things don't need to be asked on forums. Whatever, it was it has 18 responses now. Maybe it was a bad example.

alfreddajero
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I know what you mean......i really do.  For me if i dont know something then you can count that i will look it up.  There are a lot of questions on Eneloops and tons of info for the member to read if he or she used the search funtion.

With Darkness, there will always be Light.

 

 

WeAreNotAlone
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On the negative comments made by some posters in regards to budget lights...

Human nature what it is people don't like it when they have paid $100 for a product in which you can get 90% of the performance at 10% or less the cost simular items pointed out to them.  I would think this crosses boarders, it's not just a "*American" thing.
(No one like to look like a fool- You don't tell, or point out to the girl you're wanting to get "friends" (get lucky with) with that you just spent $100 for something you could have got for $10 or less...Telling her such will not endear her to you, you will NOT be having babies with her. Ditto on telling the wife...)

 

On some trying to discourge foreign sales. For persons who do not regularly ship overseas the cost of shipping from a monetary and time standpoint is most of the time more than the item is worth. Add to this rules and regulations differ from country to country when there HAS been a case of fraud, or attempted fraud that sellers are hesitaint to ship to certain countries.

(I've noticed on Ebay sellers not shipping to certain countries- I would assume they have looked at the "numbers' (Completed sales, vs how many times they've been ripped off, and or had problems with a transaction)

 

Is this fair if you live in XYZ banned country? On a personal level no, but on a business level it is.

Is is fair?

My insurance company charges me more than someone living 2 miles away due to "zip code"...  They have looked at their claims and based their rates accordingly. Some areas are higher risk than others.

My local auto parts store used to have a store in a different zip code than "new" store... New store pricing is HIGHER by 15-20% on SAME parts from competior in old zip code just right down the road.  Mgr told me price difference was due to them being in the "fancy" zip code (Where the rich people live... Like the rich people (have-to) change their own oil)...

sb56637
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Hi there WeAreNotAlone, welcome to BLF! I'd say your assessment is pretty much accurate. Personally, I'm the first to mention a flaw in a budget light, but I'm also the first to remember (without regrets) how little I payed for it. 8)

Budget Light Forum ...where Frugal meets with Flashlight!

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Moderation at CPF is really shit. I ended up getting banned over practically nothing. I work in the high tech industry (you know, the kind that's akin to, though higher end than the manufacture of LED emitters), and feel like I could contribute some decent knowledge at times, but I guess their policy is to ban first and ask questions later (what questions? exactly). They also delete posts because they don't like the message portrayed or just on a whim. Had I known this, I prolly wouldn't have bothered joining, and I don't suppose most smart people are prone to bowing to petty authority of that nature.

 

The egomania of the admin there is unreal. She actually believes it's her kingdom to rule along with her sychophants and an iron fist despite the fact that the value of any forum is in its membership.

Human nature what it is people don't like it when they have paid $100 for a product in which you can get 90% of the performance at 10% or less the cost simular items pointed out to them. 

Another thing worth pointing out is that the "flashlight crowd" in the US often intersects with the jingoist survivalists or at least those with similar sentiments. You know, the kind who think jesus is coming and they need to stash up on ammo and "tactical" flashlights apparently to face the end times.

 

Anyway, off to collect the hound from her haircut. I may add that the haircut will cost about the same as my last 5 lights. Couldn't afford doggie haircuts and expensive lights.

 

Quality razorsharp blades are also very inexpensive from china.... just sayin'

Reading this makes you smarter: http://lesswrong.com/

Don
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agenthex wrote:

Quality razorsharp blades are also very inexpensive from china.... just sayin'

 

Yes, but that would rely on my having far greater manual skills than I do. The dog really does prefer her ears still to be attached to her once the haircut is done... Smile

 

The numbers from my light tests are always to be found here.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApkFM37n_QnRdDU5MDNzOURjYllmZHI...

Nautic
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agenthex wrote:

Moderation at CPF is really shit. 

 

You are quite right!  No posts trying to defend CPF can change the reallity 

The examples shown in this forum are only a small wave in a big ocean.

Cheap quality is good - Expensive crap isn´t

Budgeteer
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For the above mentioned reasons that's why im glad i found this site. It's the one i like the most and without annoying ppl trying to make a point no1 even tried to ask about. And i hate also all those fanboy that reply on every can someone reccomend me XY with the same old long story about the only light they have even if it is clearly and totally not what the person asking wanted.

 

Like: Please reccomend me a durable single mode 1 AA for under 20$?

And they get: My XX 100$ 2x 18650 would be perfect for you, it has tons of light 1500 lumens and it is a great thrower you can't go wrong with it. also fits my pocket. made in USA (yeah right...) not the usual cheap...

 

This is maybe a bit exagerated but quite often happens to read junk like that.

I for one have only chinese made lights if i don't count an old mag lite solitaire which is nowaday useless cept for lighting a car keyhole perhaps. I find them extremely good for what you pay.

kragmutt wrote:

They're gonna send you a green redcat with a black LED.

Nautic
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Wellcome Budgeteer. Good to have you here.

 

The example you gave is not exagerated. It is exacly what happens all the time.

Cheap quality is good - Expensive crap isn´t

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You sure won't find BLF moderated in a heavy-handed fashion.  Not to suggest that I hate rules, I'm OK with them - but the way CPF engages its members with hostility and contempt in their attempt to enforce the rules is just plain wrong.

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Thanks for the warm welcome.

I just recently found this hobby and i like it. I needed a bike light and here i am. Smile

I was reading this forum for a little less than a month and decided to register when i found out that it has a nice & healthy community.

I hope to share my expertise/experience when it does mature enough.

 

Kind regards,

Budgeteer

kragmutt wrote:

They're gonna send you a green redcat with a black LED.

WeAreNotAlone
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agenthex wrote:

Moderation at CPF is really shit. I ended up getting banned over practically nothing. I work in the high tech industry (you know, the kind that's akin to, though higher end than the manufacture of LED emitters), and feel like I could contribute some decent knowledge at times, but I guess their policy is to ban first and ask questions later (what questions? exactly). They also delete posts because they don't like the message portrayed or just on a whim. Had I known this, I prolly wouldn't have bothered joining, and I don't suppose most smart people are prone to bowing to petty authority of that nature.

I created a thread over thread asking about what kind of materials are used for battery carriers, what would be the best way to repair them for some Costco_-_Tech Lite High-intensity CREE XPC L.E.D.100 lumens Tactical Flashlight, item_531804 (3pk)_$17.89 bought at Costco.  Seems to me cracked battery carriers are a pretty common problem.... so someone should know what glues /procedures work. Out of 36+ lights only about 3 of the carriers are undamaged.

(Battery carrier backplate screws (3) were overtightened)

Checked the thread the other day and it's GONE. Clicked the contact Admin, you are rolled over to a page that says basicly "Don't Contact us, we hold all the cards and you are nothing." Have a e-mail to the Admin, but doubt I'll get a response or a explanation.

agenthex wrote:

The egomania of the admin there is unreal. She actually believes it's her kingdom to rule along with her sychophants and an iron fist despite the fact that the value of any forum is in its membership.

That's the feeling I get. If I was a advertiser I'd be livid.

 

agenthex wrote:
Another thing worth pointing out is that the "flashlight crowd" in the US often intersects with the jingoist survivalists or at least those with similar sentiments. You know, the kind who think jesus is coming and they need to stash up on ammo and "tactical" flashlights apparently to face the end times.

This is the second (or third) time in this thread Anti-US/anti-gun comments have been interjected into the conversation. On gun comments while I wish we could live in a perfect world without weapons of any kind the facts are down thruout the ages when the military and Police forces of the ruling class has all the weapons,  and the Civilian Population is not armed equally.... BAD things happen.

 

On your comment about Jesus coming, During the COLD-WAR there were two major players, (US and USSR/RUSSIA) that had weapons of mass destruction.  With the break-up of the USSR the control (and components) of those weapons are in the hands of MANY. Addtionally there are TONS of Nuclear material the USSR lost track of that could be used to build dirty bombs.

Military grade nuke=Hard to build (costly), Radation levels quickly disapate.

Junk-Nuke, AKA Dirty bomb=Easy to build, residual radiation levels remain high over a very long period of time.

 

With the way the world is today anything can happen so being prepared is a good thing.

 

Q: In most countries these days:

A: Just in time scheduling is done. Grocey stores for example only stock at best 72hrs worth of food. If the production OR transport of  food is delayed anywhere from production to the store..... there will be no food.

(Ditto this for manufacturing, Parts are obtained as needed... if there is ANY delay there are shortages.)

 

Q: Everything is computerized. A single high altitude EMP bast would cause allot of damage. I won't go into details but read above with the mindset that distribution of fuel is affected.

 

.

 

 

 

 

boomhauer
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I'm also one of those in the US with a stash of ammo, flashlights and food. Tongue out  But I also don't beat anyone over the head with my beliefs, nationalist or otherwise.  I just have a good time trying out new flashlights and talking about them.

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This is the second (or third) time in this thread Anti-US/anti-gun comments have been interjected into the conversation. On gun comments while I wish we could live in a perfect world without weapons of any kind the facts are down thruout the ages when the military and Police forces of the ruling class has all the weapons,  and the Civilian Population is not armed equally.... BAD things happen.

 

I'm not passing judgement. It's a free country and people can do as they please. I'm just pointing out why there's a certain bias towards patriotism or whatever at CPF. IMO it's a bit silly, but hey I'm a grown man playing with flashlights. Smile

 

 

Junk-Nuke, AKA Dirty bomb=Easy to build, Radation levels remain high over a very long period of time.

I won't go into the details of why this isn't true to avoid derailing the thread, but you should research a bit into the actual background levels achievable with a non-fissile radiation bomb. The short of it is that the material get spread too thin to do anything. There's hardly any reason to make one other than the "fear/wow" factor, especially given the difficulty in obtaining the substances that sound impressive.

 

Reading this makes you smarter: http://lesswrong.com/

WeAreNotAlone
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agenthex wrote:

This is the second (or third) time in this thread Anti-US/anti-gun comments have been interjected into the conversation. On gun comments while I wish we could live in a perfect world without weapons of any kind the facts are down thruout the ages when the military and Police forces of the ruling class has all the weapons,  and the Civilian Population is not armed equally.... BAD things happen.

 

I'm not passing judgement. It's a free country and people can do as they please. I'm just pointing out why there's a certain bias towards patriotism or whatever at CPF. IMO it's a bit silly, but hey I'm a grown man playing with flashlights. Smile

I don't think it's patriotism, I think it's more A: Of a case those people have more money than common sense., B: The board and some posters have a finiancal interest in moving higher priced product.

 

agenthex wrote:

Junk-Nuke, AKA Dirty bomb=Easy to build, Radation levels remain high over a very long period of time.

I won't go into the details of why this isn't true to avoid derailing the thread, but you should research a bit into the actual background levels achievable with a non-fissile radiation bomb. The short of it is that the material get spread too thin to do anything. There's hardly any reason to make one other than the "fear/wow" factor, especially given the difficulty in obtaining the substances that sound impressive.

 

 

 

Typo in previous post, edited

 

Is this better? , Junk-Nuke, AKA Dirty bomb=Easy to build, residual radiation levels remain high over a very long period of time.

 

 

The point I was trying to make (that everyone should be concerned about) is there are people that right now that are out there that wish to cause death, destruction on a mass scale. During the COLD-WAR we had two nations that had nuclear weapons with tight controls and failsafes, with the break-up of the USSR the control of material is not tightly controled and there are TONS of nuclear material missing.

 

We can debate how effective the devices would be but let me ask you this:

You're at a sporting event and there is a report of a device in the area, Better yet there is a debris cloud heading your way.... What are YOUR chances of getting out of the stadium alive?

 

Do you have enough food to survive for a extended period of time? Would you bet your life on the distrubution channels working properly?

 

Dirty bomb or true mil spec device I'm sure we could agree that would be a bad day for alot of people, and would cause a financial burden on the area. I'm sure we could also agree that any disruption in distrubution channels would also cause alot of problems.

The point to all of this is those that make fun of those that prepare should think things thru before making fun of them. The world is a dangerous place right now.

 

Given the choice, I'd rather have a 1-year food /fuel suppply in place than relying on the distrubution channels to function properly after any such type of events. Addtionally I'd rather be surrounded by like minded people that have prepared and have a food/fuel supply than the Golden Hordes of persons who only have a day or two's worth of food and fuel.

 

.

 

.

agenthex
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Joined: 07/14/2010 - 04:49
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Location: Merica

 While not causing the damage a military nuke does as there is no nuclear explosion, there would be loss of life, along with a bill for the clean-up of the aftermath.

No, the point is that the background radiation is very low level, too low to do any damage at all. "Nukes" only really work through fission, which is kind of the point ("nuclear reaction" and all). There've been a few studies done to analyze, say, the effects on ground water, etc, just in case, and the conclusion is that it's about as terrible of a weapon as can be built. The most lethal part about it would be the traditional explosive need to detonate/disperse it.

 

It would likely be effective as a "terror" tactic (as clearly evident here), but that's another OT.

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WeAreNotAlone
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Joined: 08/23/2010 - 19:27
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agenthex wrote:

 While not causing the damage a military nuke does as there is no nuclear explosion, there would be loss of life, along with a bill for the clean-up of the aftermath.

No, the point is that the background radiation is very low level, too low to do any damage at all. "Nukes" only really work through fission, which is kind of the point ("nuclear reaction" and all). There've been a few studies done to analyze, say, the effects on ground water, etc, just in case, and the conclusion is that it's about as terrible of a weapon as can be built. The most lethal part about it would be the traditional explosive need to detonate/disperse it.

 

It would likely be effective as a "terror" tactic (as clearly evident here), but that's another OT.

 

I know what your point is, I'm in agreement with you. The problem arises when you are surrounded by 100,000 people and a debris cloud is headed your way. Word has gotten out your area has been hit or is a target.

 

Either way it's better to lay in supplies to carry you over during such events.

I'd much rather be surrounded by survivalist types than the Golden Hordes of persons who only have a day or two's worth of food and fuel.

 

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