Group Buy: TERMINATED by Niwalker

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DB Custom
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In the Solarforce light, the copper pcb was not a true one. It had a dielectric layer under the emitter. So I put a Noctigon in it, and did some tweaking to the driver for an estimated 4.86A to the emitter. It’ pretty dang sweet! While not throwing a “beam” of light, it puts light on a building 610 yds away.

Interests me that the MT-G2 is being said to “throw”. With 72 small dies making up the larger die surface, can it throw? Regardless of reflector? My reflector measures 71mm inside the bezel. Not much of a difference. De-doming the MT-G2 pretty much ruins it’s gorgeous tint, in my humble opinion. And I have yet to hear of anyone successfully doing it such that the phosphor stays on all those 72 dies. I really would like to see it done and see what it can do in that regard. So far, the general consensus is that de-doming makes it COOL instead of warming it. I’m not stating facts here folks, this is jut what I’ve been seeing. I can say that the one I de-domed did not take it kindly.

I’d love to see results of this work, hopefully before the group buy timeline runs out. Might end up doing some digging for moolah my own self…

<——-the MT-G2 at ~3030 lumens

cellguy
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DBCstm wrote:
In the Solarforce light, the copper pcb was not a true one. It had a dielectric layer under the emitter. So I put a Noctigon in it, and did some tweaking to the driver for an estimated 4.86A to the emitter. It’ pretty dang sweet! While not throwing a “beam” of light, it puts light on a building 610 yds away.

Interests me that the MT-G2 is being said to “throw”. With 72 small dies making up the larger die surface, can it throw? Regardless of reflector? My reflector measures 71mm inside the bezel. Not much of a difference. De-doming the MT-G2 pretty much ruins it’s gorgeous tint, in my humble opinion. And I have yet to hear of anyone successfully doing it such that the phosphor stays on all those 72 dies. I really would like to see it done and see what it can do in that regard. So far, the general consensus is that de-doming makes it COOL instead of warming it. I’m not stating facts here folks, this is jut what I’ve been seeing. I can say that the one I de-domed did not take it kindly.

I’d love to see results of this work, hopefully before the group buy timeline runs out. Might end up doing some digging for moolah my own self…

Just a guess, since I have not seen the TN31 or K40 in person but this is the deepest single LED reflector I have seen. Even more so than the PowerTac X3000 and Thunderbolt. I suspect based on this alone, Niwalker decided to market it as more of a throw MTG2. I also suspect the claim is meant to be relative to other multi cell single emitter MTG2 lights, not true throwers.

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DB Custom
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So the reflector is more than some 80mm deep?

cellguy
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DBCstm wrote:
So the reflector is more than some 80mm deep?

Ok this is not meant to be super precise, as I did not disassemble the light, but low end estimate is 76 MM to the high end at 88 MM.

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Tom E
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I've tested the TN31 copper stars and the K40, and seem to be direct thermal path - both have thermal pads on the surface that test positively for continuity to the base. I've also got one of vinh's modified TN31's he said he did the sinkpad mod to, but it has the same large, stock copper star, so I think he's referring to the mod as a generic mod, in general he'd swap out for a SinkPAD but not if the stock is as good or better.

The important dimension for throw is width -- this is the major factor, but there are other minor factors. Dr. Jones wrote this up as did others with much better knowledge of optics than me, so absolute #1 factor is width, depth will reduce the spill area, maybe help slightly with throw, but not much, if at all.

For lumens, its funny -- I just measured 1,142 lumens @30 secs on a Convoy S3 EDC at 3.5A with XM-L2 U2 1A on a Noctigon. So this little tiny reflector can produce that - no throw, of course... Smile

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The S2200 is $136. 5 1ohm resistors cost about $3.00. I’m getting about 2780 lumens. I’m good.

Thanks for the group buy on behalf of those still on the fence, I’m sure there will be some delighted flashaholics this time next month!

tatasal
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cellguy wrote:
tatasal wrote:
I have one concern….isn’t the starting price of the XML2 version lower by about $20 to $35?

$20 at retail but the wholesale price difference was only a few dollars and not worth trying to maintain separate codes and minimum purchase levels. Equalizing the price keeps it clean and simple and still offers a great price for the end user.

Ok, no problem with that. Thanks

tatasal
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In the MTG-2 version, leaving the dome on after all the mods, how much lumens will the increase be? And what about the CD increase?

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Tom E wrote:

I'm curious - selfbuilt said it was a larger reflector than the TN31 - the diameter of the bezel is 1mm more than the TN31 according to the specs (79 vs. 80), but it looks like there's more on the outside rim to make up that 1 mm, so is the reflector interior actually bigger?

 It sounds and looks like it's the same OEM making this, as the TN31, as the SupBeam K40, but this has an advantage with the 4 cells. I'm confused - I don't see this with an XM-L2 out throwing a TN31, maybe, but doubtful, and with an MT-G2, far worse, though it will put out a lot of lumens bridging the resistors as usual, as with the TN31 and K40.

vinh - can you please be more specific? Why are you referring to a SinkPAD? Why would you replace a superior copper star with a thinner, smaller SinkPAD?The listing of mods above are a very generic list -- I'm confused.

Selfbuilt does actually say that the reflector on the Niwalker is deeper.

Clearly, the BK-series is using a large reflector – it's one of the deepest ones I've seen, in fact.  Overall dimensions and appearance are again very similar to the Thrunite TN31, but the BK-FA01 is actually slightly deeper. For an equivalent drive level, I expect it should have at least as good (if not better) throw than the XM-L2 version of the TN31.

Now while width of the reflector is the bigger factor to producing a thrower, the depth, and shape also matter.  Based on what I've observed, the increased depth helps to concentrate the beam more.

The Armytek Barracuda, and Crelant 7G5CS for example (both lights I used to own) had almost identically wide reflectors.  The Barracuda has much better throw.

All of that said if throw is what you're after, the MTG2 is not the right LED for that.  The XML version of the light, stock no mods, has more than double the throw.

Still, compared to most flashlights, and certainly multiemmiter lights, it is a thrower.

My hope for the light is that with a boost from Vinh it will gain a bit throw simply through added power, and it will make for an overall more practical light.

What I am absolutely torn on, is whether to ask Vinh to dedome it, or leave the dome on.

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I used to the term sinkpad as heat sink nowaday. I forgot that sinkpad is a brand. What else are you confused about from the list below?

*Direct copper bonding.
*New permanent thermal adhesive from copper sinkpad to host.
*Upgrade larger wires where needed.
*Upgrade High stiffness low resistance springs where needed.
*Touch up poor connection where needed.
*Tune for best beam focus.
*Lube O-Rings where needed.
*Dedome LED for extra throw.
*Current boost to the max while keeping reliability and Factory UI.

cellguy
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InfinitusEquitas wrote:
What I am absolutely torn on, is whether to ask Vinh to dedome it, or leave the dome on.

I am having the same dilemma…at moment I am leaning towards dome on.

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vinhnguyen54
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For the MTG2 I greatly prefer Dedome for the extra throw. Plus I like the tint. No experience with XML2 version so I don’t know.

InfinitusEquitas
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tatasal wrote:
In the MTG-2 version, leaving the dome on after all the mods, how much lumens will the increase be? And what about the CD increase?

Dome aside, probably 10-20% increase in output and hopefully a little less for throw.

Removing the dome should gain another 10-20% on top of that.

vinhnguyen54 wrote:
For the MTG2 I greatly prefer Dedome for the extra throw. Plus I like the tint. No experience with XML2 version so I don't know.

Lucky for me I'll see what a properly dedomed MTG2 does before having to decide... you've seen the massacre left on the EA8 Shocked

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cellguy wrote:
InfinitusEquitas wrote:
What I am absolutely torn on, is whether to ask Vinh to dedome it, or leave the dome on.

I am having the same dilemma…at moment I am leaning towards dome on.

FYI, if I recall, when I de-domed an MT-G2, the light tint got cooler (the opposite of other emitters). There was at least one other user that saw the same thing when he de-domed his MT-G2.

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ohaya wrote:
cellguy wrote:
InfinitusEquitas wrote:
What I am absolutely torn on, is whether to ask Vinh to dedome it, or leave the dome on.

I am having the same dilemma...at moment I am leaning towards dome on.
FYI, if I recall, when I de-domed an MT-G2, the light tint got cooler (the opposite of other emitters). There was at least one other user that saw the same thing when he de-domed his MT-G2.

Same effect I observed with my accidental dedoming.  I'm hoping this is because I didn't do it properly and took off a lot, if not most of the phosphor.

Even so, even after that, the tint was still better than a domed xmlt6.  Nowhere near as nice as it was with the dome (with the dome it was just gorgeous) but still nice.

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When I dedome a MTG2 the tint gets warmer.

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vinhnguyen54 wrote:
When I dedome a MTG2 the tint gets warmer.

I'm guessing the LED doesn't end up looking like this when you do it?

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not at all Smile

ohaya
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InfinitusEquitas wrote:

ohaya wrote:
cellguy wrote:
InfinitusEquitas wrote:
What I am absolutely torn on, is whether to ask Vinh to dedome it, or leave the dome on.

I am having the same dilemma…at moment I am leaning towards dome on.
FYI, if I recall, when I de-domed an MT-G2, the light tint got cooler (the opposite of other emitters). There was at least one other user that saw the same thing when he de-domed his MT-G2.

Same effect I observed with my accidental dedoming.  I’m hoping this is because I didn’t do it properly and took off a lot, if not most of the phosphor.

Even so, even after that, the tint was still better than a domed xmlt6.  Nowhere near as nice as it was with the dome (with the dome it was just gorgeous) but still nice.

Here’s the post/thread…

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/22987#comment-425152

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vinhnguyen54 wrote:
not at all :-)

Good Big Smile

ohaya wrote:
InfinitusEquitas wrote:

ohaya wrote:
cellguy wrote:
InfinitusEquitas wrote:
What I am absolutely torn on, is whether to ask Vinh to dedome it, or leave the dome on.

I am having the same dilemma...at moment I am leaning towards dome on.
FYI, if I recall, when I de-domed an MT-G2, the light tint got cooler (the opposite of other emitters). There was at least one other user that saw the same thing when he de-domed his MT-G2.

Same effect I observed with my accidental dedoming.  I'm hoping this is because I didn't do it properly and took off a lot, if not most of the phosphor.

Even so, even after that, the tint was still better than a domed xmlt6.  Nowhere near as nice as it was with the dome (with the dome it was just gorgeous) but still nice.

Here's the post/thread... http://budgetlightforum.com/node/22987#comment-425152[/quote]

Oh I remember it well.  It was one of my crowning "Oh crap, what did I do!" moments Shocked

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vinhnguyen54 wrote:
I used to the term sinkpad as heat sink nowaday. I forgot that sinkpad is a brand. What else are you confused about from the list below? *Direct copper bonding. *New permanent thermal adhesive from copper sinkpad to host. *Upgrade larger wires where needed. *Upgrade High stiffness low resistance springs where needed. *Touch up poor connection where needed. *Tune for best beam focus. *Lube O-Rings where needed. *Dedome LED for extra throw. *Current boost to the max while keeping reliability and Factory UI.

This is all generalities. "where needed", so on this Niwalker model is it needed? What's being directly copper bonded? Are you re-using the stock emitter by removing it and reflowing it back on or are you reflowing on a replacement emitter? What exactly is the new thermal adhesive? If not AS5, something newer? On this Niwalker, are you replacing the springs? Do you do all these steps conditional from piece to piece, or by model, or both?

I don't mean to be a PIA (but I am I know), but that's what I'm confused about. Please, dont take this the wrong way - I know what your end product is, and they come out fantastic, well worth the troubles, and you keep a high level of quality while turning out some huge numbers.

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I’m sure it’s a trade secret. Big Smile

But I’m with you, more info the better. Wink

BLF ≠ B-grade Flashlight Forum

 

InfinitusEquitas
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While I don't know exactly what he does, I can say with certainly... it works.

I ended up with two TK75's and sent the worse of the two off to Vinh to mod.

After getting it back, I ended up having to send the other one too.  The modded light beat out the stock one by a very clear easy to see margin, it wasn't even close.  

If I had to say, I'd guess it was a ~30% improvement over the stock light, which is no slouch to begin with.

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To keep it short and simple. It’s a trade secret. I offer full customer satisfaction guaranteed. If you do not feel the mod was worth the money I will gladly offer a refund, and if you want I can also restore the modded light back to factory specs. I will cover all shipping charges. Thanks all!

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I’ve just read both of selfbuilts reviews on this one, the pre shipping and final shipped versions. While he does not measure the reflector, he does clearly state that the diameter of the bezel is 80mm. The diameter of the S2200 is 81mm. He estimates the reflector as “the deepest I’ve ever seen” and compares a couple of lights, but not the direct competition.

It has been said that under a high load, the Vf on the MT-G2 climbs quite high. With a Vf of nearing 7V when the output is pushed, 2 cells sag appreciably in the first few minutes of operation. Quite possibly even below the Vf of the demanding emitter. This makes the 2P2S battery configuration a questionable venture. The Vostro will be highly capable of extreme output, dropping fairly quickly after the first few minutes of use. This means that very high quality cells will be a must with this light. Samsung INR18650 20R cells would do well here. Hopefully they can be had, with the shipping situation going on overseas at the moment. Flame type cells would probably be best avoided. Panasonic NCR18650PD cells will also be a good choice but I’ve measured AW 2600mA cells taking a hit with this emitter and not delivering the amperage we’re all looking for.

Yes, I’ve built a K3 head to take 2 cells at over 6A using a Q-Lite driver. I also ran it at over 8A in direct drive. This was done on a very large copper heatsink. The Samsung cells were the top performers, surprisingly enough Efest V1 IMR18650 cells were the next best delivery with their V2 version following fairly closely. The protected AW’s were last in the cells I tested.

So what I’m saying is, if you’re going to bump performance of the Vostro using the MT-G2 I strongly recommend using the best cell you can find, and that is arguably the 20R.

Essentially, the Vostro is running 2 cells with a nominal 8.4V to supply the greedy emitter. The S2200 is running 3 cells in series, easily handling the hunger of this emitter. Two different approaches, both handled by the right battery. Either is an excellent choice, and I’m sure Vinh will push this one to the maximum of it’s capabilities.

Have fun, and remember….Pics or it didn’t happen!

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That's an MTG2 LED in your profile picture isn't it?

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I ordered 40 of the Samsung INR18650 20R earlier today. I tossed in a few other odds and ends as it seems mixed orders “might” have a better chance at going though. We will see. I order 2 batches of NCR18650 late last week and they are not moving so far…

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cellguy
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InfinitusEquitas wrote:

While I don’t know exactly what he does, I can say with certainly… it works.

I ended up with two TK75’s and sent the worse of the two off to Vinh to mod.

After getting it back, I ended up having to send the other one too.  The modded light beat out the stock one by a very clear easy to see margin, it wasn’t even close.  

If I had to say, I’d guess it was a ~30% improvement over the stock light, which is no slouch to begin with.

My experience with Vinh has been superb as well. During his mod my M2S he encountered a problem offered to reimburse my cost of the light or build me custom driver at no additional charge.

I think the questions are a good thing and not meant to say anything about the quality of Vinh’s work. Modding is a learning experience with each new light and the more data that is shared and scrutinized by the community only furthers the hobby.

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DB Custom
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in my avatar the MT-G2 is in direct drive at over 3000 lumens. Picture taken through a #11 Gold Filter Plate intended for a welders mask. That’s why it appears green. Pretty much looks like the sun does, when seen through this filter. Shot with Canon 5D MkII and 100mm Macro f/2.8L Hybrid IS on a tripod with Really Right Stuff slide focus rail.

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Vinh you want me to contact my work and have them switch my direct deposit to yoir account? Might make things easier in the future Wink

LPF Member: Livinloud
Budget flashlight enthusiast turned into lumen freak

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