Group Buy: TERMINATED by Niwalker

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gadabout
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InfinitusEquitas wrote:

gords1001 wrote:
lets be honest, there are precious few outside these forums that will even look at these lights, sooner these manufacturers realise this, the better.

That's the part I don't get.  You would think that reputation, and protecting the brand image, would be everything to these manufacturer companies.

Yet time and again I see them shoot themselves in the foot, and at the same time I have to wonder... is there really that big of a market, where they can just not worry about other competitors that offer very similar products?

How many people outside this BLF/CPF flashlight fanatic world actually buy the lights?... Can it really be so many that you can blatantly alienate a large group of potential buyers and not care about it?

+1

I really don't think we (forum members) are overestimating our importance when we claim to represent a relatively large group of potential buyers.

The flashlights we deal with in places like BLF/CPF are hardly mainstream items that the regular person would find in the local hardware store.  Most of my friends and family would never even know these kinds of lights existed if it weren't for my strange (to them) hobby.

It seems Niwalker is taking a very short-sighted approach to this issue.  Rather than having the brains to work with a dealer who could help them get more of their products out into the world, it appears they prefer to present artificial barriers and hide behind unspecified "policies" to protect either their "perceived quality" or the interests of the few dealers they actually have, or both.

From the information presented here it would seem they certainly haven't made any effort to work with the seller in question, preferring instead to adopt a "No soup for you" approach.

We've seen this kind of crap before and we will see it again.

As many have said - there are plenty of other companies to purchase from.  For all they/we know, Ric is working on an updated version of the BTU shocker as we speak.  

These idiots have clearly done themselves a great disservice and as a result, anyone I am likely to run into down here will continue to respond with Ni..who??? if their name is ever mentioned.

RedForest UK
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cellguy wrote:
My communications with NiWalker were also quite pleasant. I did not inform them of the GB. They previously communicated they only work with stocking dealers and a GB in the typical format of the Manufacturer fulfilling orders would not be possible. The structure of this GB was a simple pre-order sale. I saw no need to seek approval to offer a sale on a new line of lights I would be stocking. This is a common business practice that happens everyday. Niwalker and or its dealers were dissatisfied with the final sale price. I operated this sale within structure that is employed and accepted world wide with a “See Price in Cart” strategy. I requested a written MAP policy and stated I would immediately follow those rules. No policy was provided. I do not feel any ethical guidelines were crossed but I cannot force Niwalker to fulfill a purchase order and decided it was a battle I could not win and ended the sale.

Yeah I’m not saying that you’ve done anything wrong, I just think that the backlash against Niwalker has been OTT when it could be down to a misunderstanding somewhere. I’d much rather give them a chance to explain themselves better and/or make it right before resorting to insults.

InfinitusEquitas wrote:
We’ve yet to see a multi mtg2 light though.

Interesting you should mention that as Niwalker have a couple of very interesting products in the pipeline.

AmandaLee5431
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We are very sorry for all the troubles here. As we said, we don`t mind GB but that has to go through an authorized dealer. We were willing to fulfill this GB with mods for US$180, with more additional discount(our cost) offered but he refused to do so.

We would like to make things more clearly here, the reason for two GB activities have fallen.

Mr. Bill called one of our sales rep one day and asking for dealer prices, so we gave him the usual prices we offer to dealers(over the phone). That`s it! There was no discussion about being a Niwalker dealer. Some days later, he started a thread here for GB.

Mr. Cellguy sent a few emails to us wanted to order some samples and he did provide his website to us for reference, we were very interested in working with him too. Again, there was no discussion about being a Niwalker dealer. We did told him all dealers must stock our products. As a relatively new brand in the market we are seeking for more business opportunities, so we offered him one of each Vostro lights for evaluation per his requested. Some days later, GB started again.

We were not aware about these two GBs as we were not informed and have no details, GBs should be properly organized. We are very sad to see the insults on one of the most friendly forum. We have made copies of Fxxx words for our record.

Hopefully we have explained well to you guys. Please let us know if you have any other questions.

jmpaul320
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sounds like a miscommunication

i was agitated before but…

i am over it

Would you mind keeping the wrong flashlight?
Best wish, May
Tmart service team

 

Soumil wrote:

PLEASE HELP ME GEARBEsT! IM LITERALLY CRYING!

 

RedForest UK
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So, if cellguy (e2fieldgear) commits to becoming an authorized Niwalker dealer then you would be happy to let the group buy proceed?

By ‘with mods’ do you mean $180 including the after-sales work conducted by vinhnguyen, for which he would be paid $65 of the sales price himself?

I wasn’t happy to see the insults either, as were a couple of other members who made that clear. I do understand some of the posters’ frustrations, as the MAP issue has built up now over a number of cases, but I feel you were harshly treated before being given a fair chance to explain your position. I don’t believe that the insults represent the attitute of the majority of BLF members, even if most of us don’t like MAP.

Illuminatee
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Nothing personal against Niwalker, but they are now on my short-list of MAP-obsessed, enthusiast-averse branders of flashlights. Like other intelligent consumers here, I will not pay MAP for a flashlight.

As long as enthusiasts and consumers continue to research and share information on the better value lights from the more consumer-friendly choices out there, we win. The premium-branders that wish to remain relevant in the enthusiast market will have to offer some flexibility, since the market is largely driven by enthusiasts. They do not have a monopoly on flashlights, so it will be consumers who determine what their product is worth – not the ‘branders’. With so many choices being available in this arena, those who attempt to operate according to yesterday’s rules will likely go the way of the dinosaur.

Among forums across the web, from deal sites to the other various forums where consumers learn to get the most bang for their buck, the MAP-obsessed branders should receive less and less recommendation to buy.

Teach them right and they’ll choose to rescue a shelter dog, rather than contributing to the overpopulation & mass euthanization of dogs by profiting breeders.

http://www.petfinder.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVirCMQaJQc

RedForest UK
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Illuminatee wrote:
Nothing personal against Niwalker, but they are now on my short-list of MAP-obsessed, enthusiast-averse branders of flashlights. Like other intelligent consumers here, I will not pay MAP for a flashlight.

Don’t get me wrong, neither will I. But that won’t stop me from buying the same model if/when I find it at a cheaper price, whether that is advertised or not.

I wouldn’t say Niwalker are MAP obsessed, it seems that they pulled the GBs so far because they weren’t being set-up by anyone who had yet made the commitment to become a Niwalker dealer and therefore provide the after sales support. I certainly wouldn’t call them enthusiast-averse either, they have a couple of very interesting products in development and have actively taken enthusiast feedback on board in certain aspects of their product design both for current and those coming products.

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What was the cellguy GB price?
So we can judge Niwalker offered GB price. “GB with mods for US$180”.


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cellguy
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RedForest UK wrote:
So, if cellguy (e2fieldgear) commits to becoming an authorized Niwalker dealer then you would be happy to let the group buy proceed?

By ‘with mods’ do you mean $180 including the after-sales work conducted by vinhnguyen, for which he would be paid $65 of the sales price himself?

I wasn’t happy to see the insults either, as were a couple of other members who made that clear. I do understand some of the posters’ frustrations, as the MAP issue has built up now over a number of cases, but I feel you were harshly treated before being given a fair chance to explain your position. I don’t believe that the insults represent the attitute of the majority of BLF members, even if most of us don’t like MAP.

I have reached out to Niwalker to see if an agreeable solution can be reached. I am willing to work within any manufacturer’s MAP guidelines. Offering a coupon code without advertising a specific discount amount is a common and acceptable practice that we see everyday. I am not willing have a manufacturer control the final sale price on inventory I am required to pay for and stock if MAP has been followed to acquire the sale. The GB itself was not the issue. It was the final sale price and Niwalker’s assertion that I was violating their MAP by offering a final sale price that was too low.

They offered two conditions where the GB could continue:

1. Offer a 10% discount off MAP.
2. Offer Vinh’s mod as a bundle at MAP.

I did not agree to either option because how is an unadvertised discount in violation of MAP but an advertised discount is not? Additionally, the mod was intended as an option not a mandatory requirement and Vinh and I had no agreement or system in place to able to facilitate a mandatory bundle.

Current Favorites:

BLF Q8, Thrunite TC20, Convoy L6

 

 

 

jmpaul320
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cellguy wrote:
RedForest UK wrote:
So, if cellguy (e2fieldgear) commits to becoming an authorized Niwalker dealer then you would be happy to let the group buy proceed?

By ‘with mods’ do you mean $180 including the after-sales work conducted by vinhnguyen, for which he would be paid $65 of the sales price himself?

I wasn’t happy to see the insults either, as were a couple of other members who made that clear. I do understand some of the posters’ frustrations, as the MAP issue has built up now over a number of cases, but I feel you were harshly treated before being given a fair chance to explain your position. I don’t believe that the insults represent the attitute of the majority of BLF members, even if most of us don’t like MAP.

I have reached out to Niwalker to see if an agreeable solution can be reached. I am willing to work within any manufacturer’s MAP guidelines. Offering a coupon code without advertising a specific discount amount is a common and acceptable practice that we see everyday. I am not willing have a manufacturer control the final sale price on inventory I am required to pay for and stock if MAP has been followed to acquire the sale. The GB itself was not the issue. It was the final sale price and Niwalker’s assertion that I was violating their MAP by offering a final sale price that was too low.

They offered two conditions where the GB could continue:

1. Offer a 10% discount off MAP.
2. Offer Vinh’s mod as a bundle at MAP.

I did not agree to either option because how is an unadvertised discount in violation of MAP but an advertised discount is not? Additionally, the mod was intended as an option not a mandatory requirement and Vinh and I had no agreement or system in place to able to facilitate a mandatory bundle.

while its nice to see they are trying to work out a deal , i agree with you

if they are offering #2 as a solution – why not just ship the lights directly to him? doesnt make sense.

Would you mind keeping the wrong flashlight?
Best wish, May
Tmart service team

 

Soumil wrote:

PLEASE HELP ME GEARBEsT! IM LITERALLY CRYING!

 

kronological
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Bottom line is these things need to be worked out in advance with full knowledge behind closed doors. Airing this stuff in public is unprofessional and typically ends poorly for all concerned.

No one, after lighting a lamp, puts it away in a cellar nor under a basket, but on the lampstand, so that those who enter may see the light.

My Reviews: Ma

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The purpose of MAP is to ensure dealer gets enough profit from each sale so that the dealer can be expected to provide after sales support and possibly handle some warranty issues?

Is that how it actually works with MAP brands or does the warranty on some not live up to what it should for the price?


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tatasal
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quote: “The GB itself was not the issue. It was the final sale price and Niwalker’s assertion that I was violating their MAP by offering a final sale price that was too low.”

This is the meat of the matter guys. Remember doingoutdoor, fasttech and now e2fieldgear…..

Coupon codes are all over the place. Cellguy’s point about it is correct.

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While I’m glad to see that there’s an obvious effort being made to straighten out what seems to have been, more or less, miscommunication I do understand the frustration on some of the folks part. I am not in favor of MAP. Different dealers have different overhead issues, different needs. So it would stand to reason that one dealer may be able to offer a better price as he has less involved in stocking the product. That’s business.

As far as the language used earlier today, it’s my understanding that the use of profanity is one of few ways to get banned on this forum. As this is all an open forum, family oriented, it should be fairly black and white. The people willing to blatantly break the simple rules of the forum don’t belong here. Let your anger get the best of you, and be gone. My son loves lights too. He likes the pictures he sees here. He’s 6 and doing a great job reading, on a 3rd grade or higher level. Goes without saying that I don’t feel I should have to explain to my child what a word or a gesture seen on this forum means, and why he shouldn’t use it.

I would not use the type approach we witness earlier, but then I have a business to run as well. Matters not one whit whether morning coffee has been had or not. I suspect there will be some repurcussions to some of todays conversation.

For me, the product itself does not swing me over to Niwalker. Even if modified, some of my major issues with the style and interface are still there. So it’s not the light for me. Decent looking light, nice anodization, I personally don’t like magnetic rings. In heavy use, in my opinion, those rings can get jammed and make the light inoperable. Not an option. Like so many other things, it’s difficult to get all of one’s personal likes in the same product, lol. That’s what makes this all so interesting, is it not? Smile

InfinitusEquitas
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tatasal wrote:
quote: "The GB itself was not the issue. It was the final sale price and Niwalker’s assertion that I was violating their MAP by offering a final sale price that was too low." This is the meat of the matter guys. Remember doingoutdoor, fasttech and now e2fieldgear..... Coupon codes are all over the place. Cellguy's point about it is correct.

+1

And why I'm glad my comments have been "saved"... hopefully they make it to whomever is in charge over at Niwalker, and they take note.  

In general I prefer to be extremely civil, however there are times when only the harshest response possible will garner any reaction.  (It's pretty hard to lose the meaning of that word in translation, or misconstrue it's use as anything but an insult.)

Had the response been milder, would anyone pay attention?  Or would they write it off as another "oh well, that's too bad they have MAP" situation and move on?

Now Niwalker is here trying to save face.  They are paying attention to what's going on, to people's reactions, and hopefully realize they didn't only make themselves look bad but also their dealers by association.  Not good for a new brand starting out.

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hmm.. i never even heard about Niwalker lights before..just heard it from this GB, i was about to check it when i realized, there’s really nothing special about the light.
it’s just another variation of TN30 or TK75.. but with TK75 XML2 U2 selling for $161 at WB.. why even bother to buy unknown light? ..just my $.02

thanks for saving my money Flat Stare

The only way to do a great work is to love what you do.

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Just saw this thread for the first time today. I have the MT-G2 and XM-L2 versions of the Vostro’s. I actually have the XM-L2 version in transit to Tom E right now for him to mod the hell out of it to see if it can beat the TN31. It sucks that Niwalker has burned their bridges and left scorched earth behind because I genuinely think the BK-FA01 is a better light than the TN31, which I also own.

In regards to the harsh language: I have no problem with it. People here are very passionate about their hobby and expect good customer service. If you feel like you need to tell somebody to have a violent sexual liaison with themselves to convey your feelings, I encourage it.

Tumbleweed48
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Niwalker?

Never heard of ‘em.

tatasal
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Tumbleweed48 wrote:
Niwalker?

Never heard of ‘em.

Me too. Sleepwalker, I know. hahaha

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AmandaLee5431 wrote:
We are very sorry for all the troubles here. As we said, we don`t mind GB but that has to go through an authorized dealer. We were willing to fulfill this GB with mods for US$180, with more additional discount(our cost) offered but he refused to do so.

We would like to make things more clearly here, the reason for two GB activities have fallen.

Mr. Bill called one of our sales rep one day and asking for dealer prices, so we gave him the usual prices we offer to dealers(over the phone). That`s it! There was no discussion about being a Niwalker dealer. Some days later, he started a thread here for GB.

Mr. Cellguy sent a few emails to us wanted to order some samples and he did provide his website to us for reference, we were very interested in working with him too. Again, there was no discussion about being a Niwalker dealer. We did told him all dealers must stock our products. As a relatively new brand in the market we are seeking for more business opportunities, so we offered him one of each Vostro lights for evaluation per his requested. Some days later, GB started again.

We were not aware about these two GBs as we were not informed and have no details, GBs should be properly organized. We are very sad to see the insults on one of the most friendly forum. We have made copies of Fxxx words for our record.

Hopefully we have explained well to you guys. Please let us know if you have any other questions.

Here’s a P word to add to your recordings . . Your approach and story is a load of pooh (and I don’t mean Winnie) … After you sell a light, your deal is done. You don’t need to be informed – you just need to be honorable to sell to the dealer at the price and written contract terms when you committed. The person who then owns the light sets their price since it become their property to sell. And how does one of your dealers have the right to decide what their competitor is doing? Who the H@LL is that? You already got your money and neither you or the other dealer have the right to tell someone what they can sell a light for unless it is on a mutually agreed contract.

I and many others now won’t buy your product – PERIOD. End of sentence and end of your ability to sell us copies of lights. That the P word you should be aware of.

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i only know daywalker Silly

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No way he/she’s going to reveal the vendor…

Not after all this hate.

BLF ≠ B-grade Flashlight Forum

 

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ryansoh3 wrote:
Hmm I wonder how effective a BLF boycott would be…

Integrity is the matter at hand.
If we stand by and allow this behaviour to continue unabated and without recourse, they will see it as acceptable and degenerate further and further until we do jack up over it.

I for one, will NOT stand for such underhanded, unsavoury, discriminatory, defamatory and dishonest behaviour and rather take a moral stand at my personal expense to demonstrate this.

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borked wrote:
QUESTION AIMED AT AmandaLee5431 Who complained ?

I would like to know also…
Is there a list of their official dealers somewhere?

 

borked
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AmandaLee5431 wrote:
We are very sorry for all the troubles here. As we said, we don`t mind GB but that has to go through an authorized dealer. We were willing to fulfill this GB with mods for US$180, with more additional discount(our cost) offered but he refused to do so.

We would like to make things more clearly here, the reason for two GB activities have fallen.

Mr. Bill called one of our sales rep one day and asking for dealer prices, so we gave him the usual prices we offer to dealers(over the phone). That`s it! There was no discussion about being a Niwalker dealer. Some days later, he started a thread here for GB.

Mr. Cellguy sent a few emails to us wanted to order some samples and he did provide his website to us for reference, we were very interested in working with him too. Again, there was no discussion about being a Niwalker dealer. We did told him all dealers must stock our products. As a relatively new brand in the market we are seeking for more business opportunities, so we offered him one of each Vostro lights for evaluation per his requested. Some days later, GB started again.

We were not aware about these two GBs as we were not informed and have no details, GBs should be properly organized. We are very sad to see the insults on one of the most friendly forum. We have made copies of Fxxx words for our record.

Hopefully we have explained well to you guys. Please let us know if you have any other questions.


One question, how do you plan to fix this in a positive manner, that establishes a bond of trust between the distributor, the customers and yourself ?

Another question, if Cellguy provided his website for reference, how come it was missed he is an authorised distributor ?

borked
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Illuminatee wrote:
Nothing personal against Niwalker, but they are now on my short-list of MAP-obsessed, enthusiast-averse branders of flashlights. Like other intelligent consumers here, I will not pay MAP for a flashlight.

As long as enthusiasts and consumers continue to research and share information on the better value lights from the more consumer-friendly choices out there, we win. The premium-branders that wish to remain relevant in the enthusiast market will have to offer some flexibility, since the market is largely driven by enthusiasts. They do not have a monopoly on flashlights, so it will be consumers who determine what their product is worth – not the ‘branders’. With so many choices being available in this arena, those who attempt to operate according to yesterday’s rules will likely go the way of the dinosaur.

Among forums across the web, from deal sites to the other various forums where consumers learn to get the most bang for their buck, the MAP-obsessed branders should receive less and less recommendation to buy.


Perfect example being M@gl!te being dragged into the 21st century and forced to use LED’s to stay relevant in the market.
By what percent of their market share they lost by dragging their feet would be intriguing to view.
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Too little too late for me.

I can’t be bothered with companies that conduct their business like this. IMO once they have their money that’s it for them, whoever has paid them can do what they like with the items.

Has made my decision easier that’s for sure. Its not like there is many good MT-G2 lights out there so this is just another one I can strike off the “potential” list.

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LSX wrote:
Too little too late for me.

I can’t be bothered with companies that conduct their business like this. IMO once they have their money that’s it for them, whoever has paid them can do what they like with the items.

Has made my decision easier that’s for sure. Its not like there is many good MT-G2 lights out there so this is just another one I can strike off the “potential” list.

+1 I’m not going to get upset and rant but there is too much competition out there to give my money to a manufacturer like this. I can’t buy every single interesting light and they just freed up cash for something else on the list. I already have an Eagletac SX25L3 with the MTG2 emitter. It is a great light and it can be found for a good deal in many places. I know the Niwalker has a much larger reflector and I was really looking forward to comparing the two but hey…there are plenty of fish in the sea! Smile

I also wanted to add…I have dealt with E2 Fieldgear a few times. I always found their prices and service to be excellent. Thanks Cellguy, for trying to make this happen. It would’ve been nice, and we appreciate your efforts.

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Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) Policies are Designed to Benefit Dealers – Not Consumers

Minimum advertised pricing is a method upon which manufacturers dictate to retailers the price which must be advertised for a given product. Many times, this advertising is restrictive to the point of ensuring the consumer pays too much for a given product. (Also note, Minimum Resale Price (MRP) policies are a close cousin to MAP policies. The difference is that MRP policies dictate the minimum price at which an item can be sold vs. advertised.

*Myth: MAP Policies are Good for Consumers
Fact: MAP Policies are Bad for Consumers Due to Potentially Higher Prices*
Minimum advertised pricing (MAP) often causes consumers to pay higher prices than if MAP did not exist. This is often times due to restrictions in place where a customer has to take additional steps such as calling a retailer to determine the best possible price. If the consumer doesn’t know they need to call, they may end up paying more than necessary for an item.

*Myth: MAP Levels the Playing Field
Fact: MAP Supports Inefficient Businesses*
Minimum advertised pricing (MAP) is often referred to as a mechanism to level the playing field between competitors. This is nonsense. Inefficient business models shouldn’t be rewarded for the unwillingness to change with the times and become leaner organizations.

*Myth: Manufacturers Always Disclose Their Policies
Fact: Some Manufacturers Want to Keep Policies a Secret*
While many manufacturers do in fact disclose their policies, others are much more restrictive. They may restrict a retailer from disclosing that such an anti-consumer policy is in place. If you’re going to have a Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) policy then own it and disclose it. We can disagree on opinions as to the merits of MAP, but “hiding” it makes me lose respect for you.

*Myth: Dealers “Win” by Making More Money with MAP Policies
Fact: Dealers “Lose” When they Don’t Serve Their Customers Interests*
Dealers win the trust of their customers by always providing them with the lowest possible price for a product, not by overcharging them.

*Myth: MAP Policies Are Enforced Both On and Offline
Fact: Many MAP Policies Are Often Only Enforced Against Online Advertising*
Most manufacturers only enforce their MAP policies against online advertising – print, in-store and other mediums are either ignored or exempted from the rules. There are exceptions, but those are far and few between. If we’re talking about fairness and equality in “leveling the playing field” as some manufacturers claim, then they’re failing miserably at this goal. Instead, they’re putting internet dealers at a distinct disadvantage putting handcuffs on their operations while others can wheel and deal freely.

Why are Manufacturers enforcing M.A.P.s ??
Manufacturers are mainly trying to “protect” traditional distribution channels, claiming that they do provide support and service.
Manufacturers want to make sure that dealers with higher overhead costs can make money at selling their products and stay in business. But after all, who hasn’t visited a store to “kick the tires” and then rushed online to save money ??

Do M.A.P.s benefit the Consumer ??
MAPs can sometimes be justified for a complex and technical product.
They are harder to justify when you buy an MP3 player, a camera lens, or a flashlight.
In most instances, it results in higher prices for the consumer with no or little added benefits.

*Are M.A.P.s legal ?? *
Many people believe MAPS are anti-competitive and a restriction of trade. They used to be illegal in the U.S. for these very same reasons. Since 2008, however, they are, unfortunately, legal .

Teach them right and they’ll choose to rescue a shelter dog, rather than contributing to the overpopulation & mass euthanization of dogs by profiting breeders.

http://www.petfinder.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVirCMQaJQc

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