Here is a Callie's Kustoms HD 18650 vs. my 1+ year old AW IMRs. I actually thought they were older than that. Is this a fair comparison? You decide.
I keep reading words like "reliability", "durability" and "long-term" when talking about reasons to buy AWs. So it stands to reason that the AW should be able to hold is own after a year or so. These 9 runs were all done TODAY (8/23/11).
The Cells
AW IMR 18650 #1 & #2
Purchased: From Lighthound 6/18/2010
Usage: Not much. Occasionally would fill in for a LiCo in a 1.4A light and rarely run a ROP Hi. Most of the time they have been stored. Some of that time was fully charged just sitting on the shelf and the rest of the time was stored @ 3.8v in the fridge.The cells have never sat after being discharged and I followed charging guidelines specified by AW, but almost always charged them at or above 1C.
Callie's Kustoms High-Discharge 18650 #1
Purchased: Was given to test by Jordon @ CK - 8/8/2011
Usage: Limited testing. Now I'm starting to use them the way I would any IMR (discharging to 2.5v and charging at 1C+)
Facing off at 3 Amps discharged to 2.5v:
AW IMR #1: 1272 mAh AW IMR #2: 1338 mAh CK HD #1: 2227 mAh (2180 mAh to 3.0v) (I forgot to put the temp sensor on until the very end)
OK.... how about 5 Amps (to 2.5v):
AW IMR #1: 1219 mAh AW IMR #2: 1294 mAh CK HD #1: 2201 mAh (2127 mAh to 3.0v)
Time to put it all on the line - 10 Amps! (to 2.5v)
AW IMR #1: 81 mAh AW IMR #2: 103 mAh CK HD #1: 2209 mAh (1967 mAh to 3.0v)
I'd call that a K.O.
If anybody would like to test my cells to verify my results, I'd be happy to send them to you, just please don't return the AWs. Likewise, I'd love to test some new AW IMR18650s if anybody wanted to loan them to me. (Unless you are AW, in which case I'm keeping them for repayment of all the underperforming IMRs I've spent hundreds of dollars on.)
Maybe a new pair would hold their voltage better than the CK, but I think that would be tough. There's no guarantee that they are even the same cells underneath. (I know what a CK HD is. :p) Even then, they're going to lose in the capacity department by a wide margin.
The only other areas of concern are longevity and safety. My pair of AWs may last forever and not lose any any more capacity, but they don't have enough to begin with. The main concern with the Panasonics is the "unknown" level of safety. Until somebody shows me what it takes to make both cells explode, and that there is a difference, I'm going to treat both the same.
Yikes! Honestly I'm pretty surprised. I would think the AW's would have the clear advantage at high discharge rates. Honestly I cant help but think the AW cell is damaged to do that poorly at 10A ??
"The main concern with the Panasonics is the "unknown" level of safety. Until somebody shows me what it takes to make both cells explode, and that there is a difference, I'm going to treat both the same."
I'm completely on board with you on this! In fact we are going to be changing some wording on our website so people really understand no battery is safe. I mean really... when I was a child I had it pounded into me about battery not being safe. I think its better to error on the side of safety rather than catch your self on fire or get burnt up with acid.
Yikes! Honestly I'm pretty surprised. I would think the AW's would have the clear advantage at high discharge rates. Honestly I cant help but think the AW cell is damaged to do that poorly at 10A ??
I agree, but these cells have never been abused. No dead shorts, no overdischarges. no resting after depleted, and the only times they were depleted was for tests. Also, they readily charge to 4.2v and hold their charge. They also has a relatively normal curve under a decent load (5A).
My only guess could be that regularly charging the cells at higher rates (2C), while within specs according to AW, result in degradation. However, I looked at a graph from a test I did 10 months ago and the curve (another 5A graph) was nearly identical to the ones done today.
BTW, the Panasonic is GAINING capacity. 2200 mAh @ 10A is unbelievable.
Very nice mitro , though the demand for a 10A test , I think was a bit of a [ hmmmmm ] unreasonable demand , and I thought it insanely funny when posted on CPF ...
But the fact that the two IMR;s fell on there face and the Panasonic performed well , kind of speaks volumes ...
Now when I see the Enemy post [ yes I think enemy ] , a AW review , must remember to demand a 10A discharge ...
But the whole thread unfortunately deteriorated , with some very silly [ Stupid !!! - who am i kidding ] comments and demands ...
Thanks mitro ...
—
Always remember , the easiest thing in the world to do , is to expel hot air from your lungs and through some vocal chords .. The resulting sound may , or may not be worth listening too ….
Very nice mitro , though the demand for a 10A test , I think was a bit of a [ hmmmmm ] unreasonable demand , and I thought it insanely funny when posted on CPF ...
But the fact that the two IMR;s fell on there face and the Panasonic performed well , kind of speaks volumes ...
Now when I see the Enemy post [ yes I think enemy ] , a AW review , must remember to demand a 10A discharge ...
But the whole thread unfortunately deteriorated , with some very silly [ Stupid !!! - who am i kidding ] comments and demands ...
Thanks mitro ...
Thank you... and thanks for all the testing you've done.
I did the 10A discharge on the cell because Panasonic says it can. I had already done it once for my initial tests, but its gotten stronger since then. I'm not here to sell CK cells. Jordon was nice enough to give me one to test and if the results were poor, they'd be in the above graphs. I like cells that perform up to, or beyond, expectations. I think we all do.
LOL it looks like that, but I assure you, they were charged to 4.2v
Those guys would cry foul, but i guess if BLFers would want to counter AW, better do another 4.2V discharge @ 10A, and then after that 5A to show that it has not been damaged. "PROVE BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT".
It's not a damaged cell, the 1A and 5A mAh results confirm that.
Anyway I am charging HKE's NCR18650A, but i can only do 1A. (ouch)
I think enough people have IMR's , but not everyone has the equipment to test @ 10A , and I think some of the CPF posters were counting on that , almost like a crutch .
I havent checked yet , but I saw mention of getting banned ??? I'll have to check that out ...
Seriously , thank you mitro ,
—
Always remember , the easiest thing in the world to do , is to expel hot air from your lungs and through some vocal chords .. The resulting sound may , or may not be worth listening too ….
I ran them all at 7.5A today. Everyone have their harnesses fastened? OK... hang on!
WWWWWWHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! I've never been on a discharge graph rollercoaster before. I assume thatis not good. No... I KNOW that is not good. At 7.5A the AWs are on the edge of having useful capacity, but the temperature of them is getting so high that any cracks/nicks in the wrapper are getting bigger because the wrap is shrinking. So the AWs still work... just not well.
Wow, that's a crazy discharge graph. Maybe the battery got a second wind. So at 10A, the test lasts about 12 minutes or so? (for the CK's, looks like the AW's won't make a minute).
Here you go Ted (the graph shows voltage/minutes):
Jordon: If I blow myself up and I'm NOT dead... my wife would most likely kill me for being stupid. If I did manage to survive both, then I'd happily buy a couple. LOL
For kicks, you should try the BIO IMR 18350 for "comparison". Like i said, i think they might be better than AW IMR. IMR 18350 gets around 900mAh, how about 2700mA (3C) and 3600mA (4C) Be careful. Coz i am going to see if 3 x 18350 works in DD in my SR3800, but will be very careful about the cells temperature. So far the 18500s work with nearly 4 amps and cell temperature is quite ok. The 18500 have only about 100mAh more capacity than the 18350.
For kicks, you should try the BIO IMR 18350 for "comparison". Like i said, i think they might be better than AW IMR. IMR 18350 gets around 900mAh, how about 2700mA (3C) and 3600mA (4C) Be careful. Coz i am going to see if 3 x 18350 works in DD in my SR3800, but will be very careful about the cells temperature. So far the 18500s work with nearly 4 amps and cell temperature is quite ok. The 18500 have only about 100mAh more capacity than the 18350.
I'll test the BIO @ 4A and maybe carefully try 5A as well (3A is already done above). I still have to put the spring back on my Skyray or I'd just try it myself (I have 4 BIO IMR 18350s now).
I have 6 BIO 18350s. hehe... oh ok no worries bro, so 3A (3C) is done and all looks well. Seriously 3 x 18350 in the DD SkyRay SR3800 triple XM-L is just for fun, i don't suggest the guys try it (at your own risk obviously)
To end the saga of the AW IMR vs. CK High Discharge 18650 I wanted to how a new AW IMR performs compared to my older ones and the CK cell. Jordon was nice enough to actually buy me an AW to test (thank you again) which shipped directly from Oveready to me.
Here's the best of my old AWs vs the new AW vs. the CK HD cell:
3 Amps
5 Amps
10 Amps
So the AW IMR does have a clear advantage in the voltage department when we start drawing 10 Amps from the cells, but how many applications do we need 10A+ and only with 1500mAh to use? Then again, if I only need 5A I could go with a Sanyo 2600 and even get a bit more capacity. Its all a trade-off.
I'm just disappointed that the cells I bought a little over a year ago are basically useless.
I'm pretty suprised on the 3A and the 5A tests The 10A test is about what I expected. Like you said its all a trade off. IMO for Flashlight users I think it will work out great.
Currently my highest power flashlight is the KD C8 XML T6 3-mode the tailcap readings are as follows.
Cell #1: 4191 mAhCell #2: 4087 mAhCell #3: 4233 mAhBest MKNE 26650 (from TacticalHID) first test @ 3 Amps : 3989 mAh
5.0 Amps
Cell #1: 4130 mAhCell #2: 4073 mAhCell #3: 4238 mAh
Taking the weakest one (#2) and punishing it with 10 amps:
Uhh...result: 4156 mAhunreal.
Comments:
I will likely do further testing, but its clear already that these cells are the real deal... as in really good. EDIT: I don't think I need much more testing after that 10A blast. I'll probably do a 1A discharge on my hobby charger, just to confirm 2100's findings. (edit: see below)
Discharging the #1 cell on my hobby charger using the NiMH setting and discharging @ 1A to 2.6v, I got a result of 4339mAh. So a little lower than 2100, but still very good.
Taking the weakest one (#2) and punishing it with 10 amps:
Uhh...result: 4156 mAhunreal.
Comments:
I will likely do further testing, but its clear already that these cells are the real deal... as in really good. EDIT: I don't think I need much more testing after that 10A blast. I'll probably do a 1A discharge on my hobby charger, just to confirm 2100's findings.
At 10A the cell is only getting warm, and the graph looks fairly normal, so I'll happily test #3 @ 10A. I'm guessing we might see 4300 mAh. I don't know about 20A, but @ 10A these are hardly breaking a sweat.
(I almost always forget to put the temp probe on the cells at the start so that's why you see a lot of the graphs start out with no temp change. In the case of #3, it looks like I might not have had the cell clamped down sufficiently and when I put the temp probe on, I must have jiggled the cell and made a slightly worse connection. The results shouldn't be significantly affected.)
What do you sue for such a high discharge? A hobby charger with some external resistor?
I wonder how the MNKE from Intl-outdoor would do under the same currents, since they seem to have the capacity actually printed on them unlike other MNKE 26650 out there.
What do you sue for such a high discharge? A hobby charger with some external resistor?
I wonder how the MNKE from Intl-outdoor would do under the same currents, since they seem to have the capacity actually printed on them unlike other MNKE 26650 out there.
I use a West Mountain Radio CBA II (link to newer CBA III) with the "pro" software that lets me calibrate the CBA based upon my own measurements. Its not perfect, but with the right tuning it can be accurate enough for our uses.
The MKNE cells might be just as good for all I know. I'm not about to buy more 26650s since I have 2 single cell 26650 lights and 8 cells. I'd be more than happy to test some if anyone wanted to loan them to me.
I didn't see your post until now, Miles. But we've already talked in PMs, so its all good.
Here is a Callie's Kustoms HD 18650 vs. my 1+ year old AW IMRs. I actually thought they were older than that. Is this a fair comparison? You decide.
I keep reading words like "reliability", "durability" and "long-term" when talking about reasons to buy AWs. So it stands to reason that the AW should be able to hold is own after a year or so. These 9 runs were all done TODAY (8/23/11).
The Cells
AW IMR 18650 #1 & #2
Purchased: From Lighthound 6/18/2010
Usage: Not much. Occasionally would fill in for a LiCo in a 1.4A light and rarely run a ROP Hi. Most of the time they have been stored. Some of that time was fully charged just sitting on the shelf and the rest of the time was stored @ 3.8v in the fridge.The cells have never sat after being discharged and I followed charging guidelines specified by AW, but almost always charged them at or above 1C.
Callie's Kustoms High-Discharge 18650 #1
Purchased: Was given to test by Jordon @ CK - 8/8/2011
Usage: Limited testing. Now I'm starting to use them the way I would any IMR (discharging to 2.5v and charging at 1C+)
Facing off at 3 Amps discharged to 2.5v:
AW IMR #1: 1272 mAh
AW IMR #2: 1338 mAh
CK HD #1: 2227 mAh (2180 mAh to 3.0v)
(I forgot to put the temp sensor on until the very end)
OK.... how about 5 Amps (to 2.5v):
AW IMR #1: 1219 mAh
AW IMR #2: 1294 mAh
CK HD #1: 2201 mAh (2127 mAh to 3.0v)
Time to put it all on the line - 10 Amps! (to 2.5v)
AW IMR #1: 81 mAh
AW IMR #2: 103 mAh
CK HD #1: 2209 mAh (1967 mAh to 3.0v)
I'd call that a K.O.
If anybody would like to test my cells to verify my results, I'd be happy to send them to you, just please don't return the AWs.
Likewise, I'd love to test some new AW IMR18650s if anybody wanted to loan them to me. (Unless you are AW, in which case I'm keeping them for repayment of all the underperforming IMRs I've spent hundreds of dollars on.)
Maybe a new pair would hold their voltage better than the CK, but I think that would be tough. There's no guarantee that they are even the same cells underneath. (I know what a CK HD is. :p) Even then, they're going to lose in the capacity department by a wide margin.
The only other areas of concern are longevity and safety. My pair of AWs may last forever and not lose any any more capacity, but they don't have enough to begin with. The main concern with the Panasonics is the "unknown" level of safety. Until somebody shows me what it takes to make both cells explode, and that there is a difference, I'm going to treat both the same.
Yikes! Honestly I'm pretty surprised. I would think the AW's would have the clear advantage at high discharge rates. Honestly I cant help but think the AW cell is damaged to do that poorly at 10A ??
"The main concern with the Panasonics is the "unknown" level of safety. Until somebody shows me what it takes to make both cells explode, and that there is a difference, I'm going to treat both the same."
I'm completely on board with you on this! In fact we are going to be changing some wording on our website so people really understand no battery is safe. I mean really... when I was a child I had it pounded into me about battery not being safe. I think its better to error on the side of safety rather than catch your self on fire or get burnt up with acid.
My only guess could be that regularly charging the cells at higher rates (2C), while within specs according to AW, result in degradation. However, I looked at a graph from a test I did 10 months ago and the curve (another 5A graph) was nearly identical to the ones done today.
BTW, the Panasonic is GAINING capacity.
2200 mAh @ 10A is unbelievable.
Very nice mitro , though the demand for a 10A test , I think was a bit of a [ hmmmmm ] unreasonable demand , and I thought it insanely funny when posted on CPF ...
But the fact that the two IMR;s fell on there face and the Panasonic performed well , kind of speaks volumes ...
Now when I see the Enemy post [ yes I think enemy ] , a AW review , must remember to demand a 10A discharge ...
But the whole thread unfortunately deteriorated , with some very silly [ Stupid !!! - who am i kidding ] comments and demands ...
Thanks mitro ...
Always remember , the easiest thing in the world to do , is to expel hot air from your lungs and through some vocal chords ..
The resulting sound may , or may not be worth listening too ….
Think you forgot to charge the AWs for 10A.
Thanks for tests mitro, very interesting - very entertaining!
Ok, AW´s are old BUT I think you have kept them in better shape than a big deal of users would ever keep.
They seem to perform well on two lower current tests but omg with that last one...
I would have bet my money EVEN on 1yr old AW´s, seriously I´ve had the image of better performance on ridiculous amps...
Panasonic is really gearing up in battery race. Do I remember correctly Panasonic owning Sanyo?
So, they have the NiMh covered pretty damn good I´d say, with Eneloops. Now this. Whew...
Thank you... and thanks for all the testing you've done.
I did the 10A discharge on the cell because Panasonic says it can. I had already done it once for my initial tests, but its gotten stronger since then. I'm not here to sell CK cells. Jordon was nice enough to give me one to test and if the results were poor, they'd be in the above graphs. I like cells that perform up to, or beyond, expectations. I think we all do.
EDIT: I think I may need to do a 7 or 8 amp discharge to fill in the gap to see where it goes south.
Those guys would cry foul, but i guess if BLFers would want to counter AW, better do another 4.2V discharge @ 10A, and then after that 5A to show that it has not been damaged. "PROVE BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT".
It's not a damaged cell, the 1A and 5A mAh results confirm that.
Anyway I am charging HKE's NCR18650A, but i can only do 1A. (ouch)
I'm not here to prove anything. If anybody wants my AWs to test they can have them. BUT... they have to test the CK HD too.
I think enough people have IMR's , but not everyone has the equipment to test @ 10A , and I think some of the CPF posters were counting on that , almost like a crutch .
I havent checked yet , but I saw mention of getting banned ??? I'll have to check that out ...
Seriously , thank you mitro ,
Always remember , the easiest thing in the world to do , is to expel hot air from your lungs and through some vocal chords ..
The resulting sound may , or may not be worth listening too ….
I think I should test the CK @15A
I ran them all at 7.5A today. Everyone have their harnesses fastened? OK... hang on!
WWWWWWHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! I've never been on a discharge graph rollercoaster before.
I assume thatis not good. No... I KNOW that is not good. At 7.5A the AWs are on the edge of having useful capacity, but the temperature of them is getting so high that any cracks/nicks in the wrapper are getting bigger because the wrap is shrinking. So the AWs still work... just not well.
appreciate your effort! Keep it up
Ok but if you blow it up i'm not sending a replacement LOL
Wow, that's a crazy discharge graph. Maybe the battery got a second wind. So at 10A, the test lasts about 12 minutes or so? (for the CK's, looks like the AW's won't make a minute).
Here you go Ted (the graph shows voltage/minutes):
Jordon: If I blow myself up and I'm NOT dead... my wife would most likely kill me for being stupid. If I did manage to survive both, then I'd happily buy a couple. LOL
For kicks, you should try the BIO IMR 18350 for "comparison". Like i said, i think they might be better than AW IMR. IMR 18350 gets around 900mAh, how about 2700mA (3C) and 3600mA (4C) Be careful. Coz i am going to see if 3 x 18350 works in DD in my SR3800, but will be very careful about the cells temperature. So far the 18500s work with nearly 4 amps and cell temperature is quite ok. The 18500 have only about 100mAh more capacity than the 18350.
I have 6 BIO 18350s. hehe... oh ok no worries bro, so 3A (3C) is done and all looks well. Seriously 3 x 18350 in the DD SkyRay SR3800 triple XM-L is just for fun, i don't suggest the guys try it (at your own risk obviously)
wouldn't be surprised if the BIO cells come from the same factory.
Reading this makes you smarter: http://lesswrong.com/
To end the saga of the AW IMR vs. CK High Discharge 18650 I wanted to how a new AW IMR performs compared to my older ones and the CK cell. Jordon was nice enough to actually buy me an AW to test (thank you again) which shipped directly from Oveready to me.
Here's the best of my old AWs vs the new AW vs. the CK HD cell:
3 Amps
5 Amps
10 Amps
So the AW IMR does have a clear advantage in the voltage department when we start drawing 10 Amps from the cells, but how many applications do we need 10A+ and only with 1500mAh to use? Then again, if I only need 5A I could go with a Sanyo 2600 and even get a bit more capacity. Its all a trade-off.
I'm just disappointed that the cells I bought a little over a year ago are basically useless.
Thanks!
I'm pretty suprised on the 3A and the 5A tests
The 10A test is about what I expected. Like you said its all a trade off. IMO for Flashlight users I think it will work out great.
Currently my highest power flashlight is the KD C8 XML T6 3-mode the tailcap readings are as follows.
TF Flame 2.82A
X-tar 2600 3.03A
CK 2250 3.7A
mitro's King Kong 26650 #1, #2, #3 (INR26650E)
Number of cells: 3
Purchased: 11/2011
Condition: New
3.0 Amps with comparison to MKNE 26650
Cell #1: 4191 mAhCell #2: 4087 mAhCell #3: 4233 mAhBest MKNE 26650 (from TacticalHID) first test @ 3 Amps : 3989 mAh5.0 Amps
Cell #1: 4130 mAhCell #2: 4073 mAhCell #3: 4238 mAhTaking the weakest one (#2) and punishing it with 10 amps:
Uhh...result: 4156 mAhunreal.
Comments:
I will likely do further testing, but its clear already that these cells are the real deal... as in really good.
EDIT: I don't think I need much more testing after that 10A blast. I'll probably do a 1A discharge on my hobby charger, just to confirm 2100's findings. (edit: see below)
Discharging the #1 cell on my hobby charger using the NiMH setting and discharging @ 1A to 2.6v, I got a result of 4339mAh. So a little lower than 2100, but still very good.
Wow, 10A and 4156mAh, even though there some sag.
Would you please test the strongest one @ 10A too
BTW: the 5A photos are CK not KK.
Thanks for the results Mitro.
At 10A the cell is only getting warm, and the graph looks fairly normal, so I'll happily test #3 @ 10A. I'm guessing we might see 4300 mAh. I don't know about 20A, but @ 10A these are hardly breaking a sweat.
Here you go Hikelite.
#2 and #3 @ 10A:
Yup... #3 did what was expected.
(I almost always forget to put the temp probe on the cells at the start so that's why you see a lot of the graphs start out with no temp change. In the case of #3, it looks like I might not have had the cell clamped down sufficiently and when I put the temp probe on, I must have jiggled the cell and made a slightly worse connection. The results shouldn't be significantly affected.)
Thanks Mitro.
It seems it's just as you expected.
What do you sue for such a high discharge? A hobby charger with some external resistor?
I wonder how the MNKE from Intl-outdoor would do under the same currents, since they seem to have the capacity actually printed on them unlike other MNKE 26650 out there.
The MKNE cells might be just as good for all I know. I'm not about to buy more 26650s since I have 2 single cell 26650 lights and 8 cells.
I'd be more than happy to test some if anyone wanted to loan them to me.
Have all of these interesting data been collected somewhere?
— Jumpjack —
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