Reference: mitro's pile of battery graphs

65 posts / 0 new
Last post
mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

I didn't see your post until now, Miles. But we've already talked in PMs, so its all good. Smile

mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

Here is a Callie's Kustoms HD 18650 vs. my 1+ year old AW IMRs. I actually thought they were older than that. Is this a fair comparison? You decide.

I keep reading words like "reliability", "durability" and "long-term" when talking about reasons to buy AWs. So it stands to reason that the AW should be able to hold is own after a year or so. These 9 runs were all done TODAY (8/23/11).

The Cells

AW IMR 18650 #1 & #2

Purchased: From Lighthound 6/18/2010

Usage: Not much. Occasionally would fill in for a LiCo in a 1.4A light and rarely run a ROP Hi. Most of the time they have been stored. Some of that time was fully charged just sitting on the shelf and the rest of the time was stored @ 3.8v in the fridge.The cells have never sat after being discharged and I followed charging guidelines specified by AW, but almost always charged them at or above 1C.

Callie's Kustoms High-Discharge 18650 #1

Purchased: Was given to test by Jordon @ CK - 8/8/2011

Usage: Limited testing. Now I'm starting to use them the way I would any IMR (discharging to 2.5v and charging at 1C+)

Facing off at 3 Amps discharged to 2.5v:

AW IMR #1: 1272 mAh
AW IMR #2: 1338 mAh
CK HD   #1: 2227 mAh (2180 mAh to 3.0v)
(I forgot to put the temp sensor on until the very end)

OK.... how about 5 Amps (to 2.5v):

AW IMR #1: 1219 mAh
AW IMR #2: 1294 mAh
CK HD   #1: 2201 mAh (2127 mAh to 3.0v)

Time to put it all on the line - 10 Amps! (to 2.5v)

AW IMR #1: 81 mAh
AW IMR #2: 103 mAh
CK HD   #1: 2209 mAh (1967 mAh to 3.0v)

I'd call that a K.O.

If anybody would like to test my cells to verify my results, I'd be happy to send them to you, just please don't return the AWs. Smile Likewise, I'd love to test some new AW IMR18650s if anybody wanted to loan them to me. (Unless you are AW, in which case I'm keeping them for repayment of all the underperforming IMRs I've spent hundreds of dollars on.)

Maybe a new pair would hold their voltage better than the CK, but I think that would be tough. There's no guarantee that they are even the same cells underneath. (I know what a CK HD is. :p) Even then, they're going to lose in the capacity department by a wide margin.

The only other areas of concern are longevity and safety. My pair of AWs may last forever and not lose any any more capacity, but they don't have enough to begin with. The main concern with the Panasonics is the "unknown" level of safety. Until somebody shows me what it takes to make both cells explode, and that there is a difference, I'm going to treat both the same.

xxllmm4
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: 05/28/2011 - 04:27
Posts: 288
Location: Washington

Yikes! Honestly I'm pretty surprised. I would think the AW's would have the clear advantage at high discharge rates. Honestly I cant help but think the AW cell is damaged to do that poorly at 10A ??

"The main concern with the Panasonics is the "unknown" level of safety. Until somebody shows me what it takes to make both cells explode, and that there is a difference, I'm going to treat both the same."

I'm completely on board with you on this! In fact we are going to be changing some wording on our website so people really understand no battery is safe. I mean really... when I was a child I had it pounded into me about battery not being safe. I think its better to error on the side of safety rather than catch your self on fire or get burnt up with acid.


mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

xxllmm4 wrote:

Yikes! Honestly I'm pretty surprised. I would think the AW's would have the clear advantage at high discharge rates. Honestly I cant help but think the AW cell is damaged to do that poorly at 10A ??

I agree, but these cells have never been abused. No dead shorts, no overdischarges. no resting after depleted, and the only times they were depleted was for tests. Also, they readily charge to 4.2v and hold their charge. They also has a relatively normal curve under a decent load (5A).

My only guess could be that regularly charging the cells at higher rates (2C), while within specs according to AW, result in degradation. However, I looked at a graph from a test I did 10 months ago and the curve (another 5A graph) was nearly identical to the ones done today.

BTW, the Panasonic is GAINING capacity. Smile 2200 mAh @ 10A is unbelievable.

old4570
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 3 days ago
Joined: 09/06/2010 - 02:44
Posts: 3398
Location: Land of Oz

Very nice mitro , though the demand for a 10A test , I think was a bit of a [ hmmmmm ] unreasonable demand , and I thought it insanely funny when posted on CPF ...

But the fact that the two IMR;s fell on there face and the Panasonic performed well , kind of speaks volumes ...

Now when I see the Enemy post [ yes I think enemy ] , a AW review , must remember to demand a 10A discharge ...

But the whole thread unfortunately deteriorated , with some very silly [ Stupid !!! - who am i kidding ] comments and demands  ...

Thanks mitro ...  

 Always remember , the easiest thing in the world to do , is to expel hot air from your lungs and through some vocal chords ..
The resulting sound may , or may not be worth listening too ….

 

2100
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 6 months ago
Joined: 05/28/2011 - 10:28
Posts: 4512
Location: SINGAPORE

Think you forgot to charge the AWs for 10A. 

CheapThrills
CheapThrills's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 07/02/2011 - 10:45
Posts: 3646
Location: Suomi

Thanks for tests mitro, very interesting - very entertaining! Smile

Ok, AW´s are old BUT I think you have kept them in better shape than a big deal of users would ever keep.

 

They seem to perform well on two lower current tests but omg with that last one...

I would have bet my money EVEN on 1yr old AW´s, seriously I´ve had the image of better performance on ridiculous amps...

 

Panasonic is really gearing up in battery race. Do I remember correctly Panasonic owning Sanyo?

So, they have the NiMh covered pretty damn good I´d say, with Eneloops. Now this. Whew... Shocked

mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

old4570 wrote:

Very nice mitro , though the demand for a 10A test , I think was a bit of a [ hmmmmm ] unreasonable demand , and I thought it insanely funny when posted on CPF ...

But the fact that the two IMR;s fell on there face and the Panasonic performed well , kind of speaks volumes ...

Now when I see the Enemy post [ yes I think enemy ] , a AW review , must remember to demand a 10A discharge ...

But the whole thread unfortunately deteriorated , with some very silly [ Stupid !!! - who am i kidding ] comments and demands  ...

Thanks mitro ...  

Thank you... and thanks for all the testing you've done.

I did the 10A discharge on the cell because Panasonic says it can. I had already done it once for my initial tests, but its gotten stronger since then. I'm not here to sell CK cells. Jordon was nice enough to give me one to test and if the results were poor, they'd be in the above graphs. I like cells that perform up to, or beyond, expectations. I think we all do. Smile

mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

2100 wrote:

Think you forgot to charge the AWs for 10A. 

LOL It looks like that, but I assure you, they were charged to 4.2v.

EDIT: I think I may need to do a 7 or 8 amp discharge to fill in the gap to see where it goes south.

2100
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 6 months ago
Joined: 05/28/2011 - 10:28
Posts: 4512
Location: SINGAPORE

mitro wrote:

2100 wrote:

Think you forgot to charge the AWs for 10A. 

LOL it looks like that, but I assure you, they were charged to 4.2v

Those guys would cry foul, but i guess if BLFers would want to counter AW, better do another 4.2V discharge @ 10A, and then after that 5A to show that it has not been damaged.  "PROVE BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT". 

It's not a damaged cell, the 1A and 5A mAh results confirm that.

Anyway I am charging HKE's NCR18650A, but i can only do 1A.  (ouch)

mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

I'm not here to prove anything. If anybody wants my AWs to test they can have them. BUT... they have to test the CK HD too. Smile

old4570
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 3 days ago
Joined: 09/06/2010 - 02:44
Posts: 3398
Location: Land of Oz

I think enough people have IMR's , but not everyone has the equipment to test @ 10A , and I think some of the CPF posters were counting on that , almost like a crutch . 

I havent checked yet , but I saw mention of getting banned ???   I'll have to check that out ... 

Seriously , thank you mitro , 

 Always remember , the easiest thing in the world to do , is to expel hot air from your lungs and through some vocal chords ..
The resulting sound may , or may not be worth listening too ….

 

mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

I think I should test the CK @15A Smile

I ran them all at 7.5A today. Everyone have their harnesses fastened? OK... hang on!

WWWWWWHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! I've never been on a discharge graph rollercoaster before. Smile I assume thatis not good. No... I KNOW that is not good. At 7.5A the AWs are on the edge of having useful capacity, but the temperature of them is getting so high that any cracks/nicks in the wrapper are getting bigger because the wrap is shrinking. So the AWs still work... just not well.

scheven_architect
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 5 months ago
Joined: 06/18/2011 - 09:11
Posts: 1238

appreciate your effort! Keep it up Cool

 

 
xxllmm4
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: 05/28/2011 - 04:27
Posts: 288
Location: Washington

Ok but if you blow it up i'm not sending a replacement LOL

brted
brted's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 6 days ago
Joined: 01/12/2010 - 19:44
Posts: 2371
Location: Atlanta

Wow, that's a crazy discharge graph. Maybe the battery got a second wind. So at 10A, the test lasts about 12 minutes or so? (for the CK's, looks like the AW's won't make a minute).

mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

Here you go Ted (the graph shows voltage/minutes):

Jordon: If I blow myself up and I'm NOT dead... my wife would most likely kill me for being stupid. If I did manage to survive both, then I'd happily buy a couple. LOL

2100
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 6 months ago
Joined: 05/28/2011 - 10:28
Posts: 4512
Location: SINGAPORE

For kicks, you should try the BIO IMR 18350 for "comparison".  Like i said, i think they might be better than AW IMR.   IMR 18350 gets around 900mAh, how about 2700mA (3C) and 3600mA (4C) Be careful.    Coz i am going to see if 3 x 18350 works in DD in my SR3800, but will be very careful about the cells temperature. So far the 18500s work with nearly 4 amps and cell temperature is quite ok.  The 18500 have only about 100mAh more capacity than the 18350.

mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

2100 wrote:

For kicks, you should try the BIO IMR 18350 for "comparison".  Like i said, i think they might be better than AW IMR.   IMR 18350 gets around 900mAh, how about 2700mA (3C) and 3600mA (4C) Be careful.    Coz i am going to see if 3 x 18350 works in DD in my SR3800, but will be very careful about the cells temperature. So far the 18500s work with nearly 4 amps and cell temperature is quite ok.  The 18500 have only about 100mAh more capacity than the 18350.

I'll test the BIO @ 4A  and maybe carefully try 5A as well (3A is already done above). I still have to put the spring back on my Skyray or I'd just try it myself (I have 4 BIO IMR 18350s now).
2100
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 6 months ago
Joined: 05/28/2011 - 10:28
Posts: 4512
Location: SINGAPORE

I have 6 BIO 18350s.  hehe...  oh ok no worries bro, so 3A (3C) is done and all looks well.  Seriously 3 x 18350 in the DD SkyRay SR3800 triple XM-L is just for fun, i don't suggest the guys try it (at your own risk obviously)

 

agenthex
agenthex's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 6 months ago
Joined: 07/14/2010 - 04:49
Posts: 3070
Location: Merica

wouldn't be surprised if the BIO cells come from the same factory.

Reading this makes you smarter: http://lesswrong.com/

mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

To end the saga of the AW IMR vs. CK High Discharge 18650 I wanted to how a new AW IMR performs compared to my older ones and the CK cell. Jordon was nice enough to actually buy me an AW to test (thank you again) which shipped directly from Oveready to me.

Here's the best of my old AWs vs the new AW vs. the CK HD cell:

3 Amps

5 Amps

10 Amps

So the AW IMR does have a clear advantage in the voltage department when we start drawing 10 Amps from the cells, but how many applications do we need 10A+ and only with 1500mAh to use? Then again, if I only need 5A I could go with a Sanyo 2600 and even get a bit more capacity. Its all a trade-off.

I'm just disappointed that the cells I bought a little over a year ago are basically useless.

xxllmm4
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
Joined: 05/28/2011 - 04:27
Posts: 288
Location: Washington

Thanks!

I'm pretty suprised on the 3A and the 5A tests Smile The 10A test is about what I expected. Like you said its all a trade off. IMO for Flashlight users I think it will work out great. 

Currently my highest power flashlight is the KD C8 XML T6 3-mode the tailcap readings are as follows.

TF Flame 2.82A
X-tar 2600 3.03A
CK 2250 3.7A

mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

mitro's King Kong 26650 #1, #2, #3 (INR26650E)


Number of cells: 3
Purchased: 11/2011

Condition: New


3.0 Amps with comparison to MKNE 26650

 
Cell #1: 4191 mAh
Cell #2: 4087 mAh
Cell #3: 4233 mAh
Best MKNE 26650 (from TacticalHID) first test @ 3 Amps : 3989 mAh

 

5.0 Amps

Cell #1: 4130 mAh
Cell #2: 4073 mAh
Cell #3: 4238 mAh

Taking the weakest one (#2) and punishing it with 10 amps:


Uhh...
result: 4156 mAh
unreal.

Comments:

I will likely do further testing, but its clear already that these cells are the real deal... as in really good. Smile EDIT: I don't think I need much more testing after that 10A blast. I'll probably do a 1A discharge on my hobby charger, just to confirm 2100's findings. (edit: see below)

Discharging the #1 cell on my hobby charger using the NiMH setting and discharging @ 1A to 2.6v, I got a result of 4339mAh. So a little lower than 2100, but still very good.

Hikelite
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 3 weeks ago
Joined: 07/13/2011 - 16:18
Posts: 3888
Location: Honeyland

mitro wrote:

Taking the weakest one (#2) and punishing it with 10 amps:


Uhh...
result: 4156 mAh
unreal.

Comments:

I will likely do further testing, but its clear already that these cells are the real deal... as in really good. Smile EDIT: I don't think I need much more testing after that 10A blast. I'll probably do a 1A discharge on my hobby charger, just to confirm 2100's findings.

Wow, 10A and 4156mAh, even though there some sag.

Would you please test the strongest one @ 10A too

 

BTW: the 5A photos are CK not KK.

 

Thanks for the results Mitro.

mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

Hikelite wrote:
Wow, 10A and 4156mAh, even though there some sag.

Would you please test the strongest one @ 10A too

 

BTW: the 5A photos are CK not KK.

 

Thanks for the results Mitro.

I fixed the graph. Smile

At 10A the cell is only getting warm, and the graph looks fairly normal, so I'll happily test #3 @ 10A. I'm guessing we might see 4300 mAh. I don't know about 20A, but @ 10A these are hardly breaking a sweat.

mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

Here you go Hikelite. Smile

 #2 and #3 @ 10A:

#2: 4156 mAh
#3: 4317 mAh

Yup... #3 did what was expected. Smile

(I almost always forget to put the temp probe on the cells at the start so that's why you see a lot of the graphs start out with no temp change. In the case of #3, it looks like I might not have had the cell clamped down sufficiently and when I put the temp probe on, I must have jiggled the cell and made a slightly worse connection. The results shouldn't be significantly affected.)

Hikelite
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 3 weeks ago
Joined: 07/13/2011 - 16:18
Posts: 3888
Location: Honeyland

Thanks Mitro.

It seems it's just as you expected.

What do you sue for such a high discharge? A hobby charger with some external resistor?

I wonder how the MNKE from Intl-outdoor would do under the same currents, since they seem to have the capacity actually printed on them unlike other MNKE 26650 out there.

mitro
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 01/25/2011 - 11:58
Posts: 707
Location: Montgomery, IL USA

Hikelite wrote:

Thanks Mitro.

It seems it's just as you expected.

What do you sue for such a high discharge? A hobby charger with some external resistor?

I wonder how the MNKE from Intl-outdoor would do under the same currents, since they seem to have the capacity actually printed on them unlike other MNKE 26650 out there.

I use a West Mountain Radio CBA II (link to newer CBA III) with the "pro" software that lets me calibrate the CBA based upon my own measurements. Its not perfect, but with the right tuning it can be accurate enough for our uses.

The MKNE cells might be just as good for all I know. I'm not about to buy more 26650s since I have 2 single cell 26650 lights and 8 cells. Smile I'd be more than happy to test some if anyone wanted to loan them to me.

jumpjack
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: 06/08/2013 - 13:27
Posts: 23
Location: italy

Have all of these interesting data been collected somewhere?

 

— Jumpjack —

Pages