Match, thank you for your valuable information with these tests. I have had a 3-4 XML build swirling around in my head and this thread is rich on information. It also answered my curiosities on the SST50's. I know the thread is a bit dated now, but hey, I'm the "new guy". Im guessing that similar info is at cpf but it seems I can hardly stand looking over there for more than 5 minutes at a time.
Have you done a "pop" test for giggles on a XML?
Also something else I would like to see charted- temperature on a smaller given heatsink say after 5 minutes being ran at 2.4A and the same test at 3A.
Match, really thanks for all this effort to provide some good results with a scientific method.
But i am pretty sure that you have done a major mistake in your test methodology, the pcb. You are suffering from high thermal resistance,this pcb is a bottleneck to the great cooling you supply to make this test.
The pcb you selected to make the test is one of the worst i have tested. Even the round 16mm kd/dx base is performing a bit better(the 14mm cutter and dx/kd 14mm base are worser than both, they have a lot of thermal resistance). I don't have any scientific data like you, but after numerous tests, KD 20mm star or 22mm star from illumination supply are much better. Therefore, you can get better results.You would be amazed if you test a 30mm pcb from an olight M3X.
So,i am pretty sure it is possible to get higher performance and over 1000 lumen with a XM-L. With the excellent pcb olight provides, i am measuring almost 970 OTF with a 4.2amp driver. So, it should be over 1100 lumen on the led.
Next time you would like to repeat this test, take this factor into your account seriously. Again thanks for all this excellent test data and really happy to help you with any way(leds, pcbs etc)
Match, really thanks for all this effort to provide some good results with a scientific method.
Thank you!
ergotelis wrote:
But i am pretty sure that you have done a major mistake in your test methodology, the pcb. You are suffering from high thermal resistance,this pcb is a bottleneck to the great cooling you supply to make this test.
You're correct, there are losses across the pcb. Though, considering a large percentage of the flashlights we use all have the emitters mounted on a pcb of some sort, the test setup here is a bit more apropos to real world conditions than had I reflowed the bare emitter onto the 1" copper rod.
ergotelis wrote:
The pcb you selected to make the test is one of the worst i have tested. Even the round 16mm kd/dx base is performing a bit better(the 14mm cutter and dx/kd 14mm base are worser than both, they have a lot of thermal resistance). I don't have any scientific data like you, but after numerous tests, KD 20mm star or 22mm star from illumination supply are much better. Therefore, you can get better results.You would be amazed if you test a 30mm pcb from an olight M3X.
You may be 100% right, or you may be way out in left field ... Since I haven't tested or seen data on this particular variable I can't comment and at this point must file it under speculation.
ergotelis wrote:
Next time you would like to repeat this test, take this factor into your account seriously. Again thanks for all this excellent test data and really happy to help you with any way(leds, pcbs etc)
Thank you for the offer of help, and I'm always open to suggestions and input. Unfortunately at this point, I have neither the time nor inclination to repeat this test. I just returned from a 3 week vacation in northern Minnesota and I'm finding it hard to get back into the swing of things flashlight related.
maybe slightly off topic and out of date but is there any test like this with XR-E Q5 emitters as i see alot being driven past 1 amp and all the data sheet,s i see are one amp max i would like to see flux and maybe heat ratings from a Q5 when you push them hard can any one point me in the right dirrection ?
maybe slightly off topic and out of date but is there any test like this with XR-E Q5 emitters as i see alot being driven past 1 amp and all the data sheet,s i see are one amp max i would like to see flux and maybe heat ratings from a Q5 when you push them hard can any one point me in the right dirrection ?
Joining this poorly disguised plea for Match to include the XR-E in this eminent research.
I have a couple of the latter overdriven from stock as well.
Thanks Match. I always wondered if an sst50 could be driven to approach the surface brightness of an XRE. This might do well for a thrower, but then you are well into the power requirements for a descent HID.
While taking a second look at your test results, Ive decided to scrap the ideas of building a mega high output SST-50 thrower. When examining efficiencies while driven at high current levels, the SST-50 simply isn't a logical choice when compared to the SST-90 or an HID.
I assume that you used the XM-L U2 1C during your tests? Since most people will probably mod using a driver with 8 x 7135's, its very interesting to compare your measured lumen outputs at 2.8A.
Emitter Lumens
XM-L 852
MC-E 693
SST-50 708
A few interesting realizations (for me):
* To achieve the same luminosity of the XM-L @2.8A, the SST-50 needs approximate 3.6A, while the MC-E requires 4.4A.
* The XM-L gains only 29 lumens when going from 2.8A to 3.0A.
Typical flashlights lumens will suffer far greater losses as heat rises. More often, high junction temperatures are reached fairly quickly. Considering the XM-L, it really does make sense to run at lower amps, especially for applications that run continuously for long periods of times (searchlight, bike lights, etc.) This gives me some great ideas for my next 3 x XM-L bike light. Thanks for all your hard work.
thanks very much for running these tests. This is incredibly useful for making informed decisions.
I have a question though, that I don't 'think' has come up here - if the emitter(s) were actively, and well cooled, would we see a higher peak output? Ok, it would seem obvious it would increase at least some, but I wonder how much.
Really though, what would be useful, is if it extended the nonlinear relationship of input/output. Instead of plateauing around 2.4-2.8...to say 3.5
I have a question though, that I don't 'think' has come up here - if the emitter(s) were actively, and well cooled, would we see a higher peak output? Ok, it would seem obvious it would increase at least some, but I wonder how much.
Fair enough question....but, for the tests conducted thus far active cooling via fan and/or water would make no appreciable difference. For the given runtime on the above tests, the thermal capacity of my heatsink setup can be considered infinite (as confirmed via thermocouple/fluke monitoring). The bottleneck is the pcb.
Now having said that, I'm staring at a box containing just over half a dozen peltier coolers leftover from a different project. Using one, or better yet, stacking them can yield near cryogenic temps on the top plate where the star could be mounted. Considering each peltier requires 150w, the power requirements (and cost) launches the idea out of the realm of flashlight practicality. Although the results would be interesting for curiosity's sake, I don't see myself getting that bored yet to try.
Thanks very much for the response. I've had an internal debate for weeks on buying copper PCB xmls (instead of aluminum) for a project. I think it will be worth the extra money to buy copper.
I think you're right about the impracticality of a peltier. But let's hope for some new advancements in battery technology to change that
Even if they do, it will probably be up to us to build such things - at least on MY budget...
That's crazy I have been pushing XPGs to 2.2 amps (8 chip Nanjg driver with 2 removed) because that's were they looked the brightest by eye and it was right on the money.
—
I am already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth.
Thanks Match! Been waiting for this info to build my XP-G project. Question now is, is it worth the sacrifice of runtime to get a little more light. I'm looking at 600mA to gain about 50 lumens. I don't think it's worth it. Still seams like 1.4A is the sweet spot for runtime vs. output.
, MTBR’s Lights & Night Riding Forum NOTE: Now hosting my photos from my Google account. Post up if you can’t see them. Older photos hosted on Photobucket or Flickr may disappear (PM me if you want access to them).
oldbobk, So are you saying the affect on runtime is negligible between running 1.4A vs. running 2.1A? That doesn't make any sense to me.
I also don't know if I'm up to the challenge of removing two of those chips! I'd probably look into the newer KD driver (and deal with a lousy low, or go 2 mode).
, MTBR’s Lights & Night Riding Forum NOTE: Now hosting my photos from my Google account. Post up if you can’t see them. Older photos hosted on Photobucket or Flickr may disappear (PM me if you want access to them).
oldbobk, So are you saying the affect on runtime is negligible between running 1.4A vs. running 2.1A? That doesn't make any sense to me.
I also don't know if I'm up to the challenge of removing two of those chips! I'd probably look into the newer KD driver (and deal with a lousy low, or go 2 mode).
-Garry
The difference in run time with a 2400mah battery would be about 100 minutes for the 1.4 and 70 minutes for the 2.1 amp high, but I never use high when I am concerned about runtime.
Send me a PM when you are ready to remove the chips I can walk you through it or I can send you one premade if you want.
—
I am already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth.
Match, thank you for your valuable information with these tests. I have had a 3-4 XML build swirling around in my head and this thread is rich on information. It also answered my curiosities on the SST50's. I know the thread is a bit dated now, but hey, I'm the "new guy". Im guessing that similar info is at cpf but it seems I can hardly stand looking over there for more than 5 minutes at a time.
Have you done a "pop" test for giggles on a XML?
Also something else I would like to see charted- temperature on a smaller given heatsink say after 5 minutes being ran at 2.4A and the same test at 3A.
When I say poof test I meant cranking it up (A) on the bench until critical failure.
Match, really thanks for all this effort to provide some good results with a scientific method.
But i am pretty sure that you have done a major mistake in your test methodology, the pcb. You are suffering from high thermal resistance,this pcb is a bottleneck to the great cooling you supply to make this test.
The pcb you selected to make the test is one of the worst i have tested. Even the round 16mm kd/dx base is performing a bit better(the 14mm cutter and dx/kd 14mm base are worser than both, they have a lot of thermal resistance). I don't have any scientific data like you, but after numerous tests, KD 20mm star or 22mm star from illumination supply are much better. Therefore, you can get better results.You would be amazed if you test a 30mm pcb from an olight M3X.
So,i am pretty sure it is possible to get higher performance and over 1000 lumen with a XM-L. With the excellent pcb olight provides, i am measuring almost 970 OTF with a 4.2amp driver. So, it should be over 1100 lumen on the led.
Next time you would like to repeat this test, take this factor into your account seriously. Again thanks for all this excellent test data and really happy to help you with any way(leds, pcbs etc)
Thank you!
You're correct, there are losses across the pcb. Though, considering a large percentage of the flashlights we use all have the emitters mounted on a pcb of some sort, the test setup here is a bit more apropos to real world conditions than had I reflowed the bare emitter onto the 1" copper rod.
You may be 100% right, or you may be way out in left field
... Since I haven't tested or seen data on this particular variable I can't comment and at this point must file it under speculation.
Thank you for the offer of help, and I'm always open to suggestions and input. Unfortunately at this point, I have neither the time nor inclination to repeat this test. I just returned from a 3 week vacation in northern Minnesota and I'm finding it hard to get back into the swing of things flashlight related.
Match,
I feel all LED companies should provide charts like yours. I also wish that there are more drivers available...
Thanks for the graphs, this is the first time I have seen them. This is going to make my flashlight selection a lot easier in the future
Awesome work Match! it's just GREAT!!
Many Thanks for sharing
Awesome job Match thanks
maybe slightly off topic and out of date but is there any test like this with XR-E Q5 emitters as i see alot being driven past 1 amp and all the data sheet,s i see are one amp max i would like to see flux and maybe heat ratings from a Q5 when you push them hard can any one point me in the right dirrection ?
Joining this poorly disguised plea for Match to include the XR-E in this eminent research.
I have a couple of the latter overdriven from stock as well.
just found this page courtesy of a member of my forum linking it.
well done! The data with the XM-L matches my own testing
I can see why I dislike the SST50's performance so much, too
C
Match you are awesome!
I just read the whole darn thread and I´m just still baffled by your dedication to "knowing" and your easy way of passing the info on down the tube.
Aplaudable indeed
~ Ledsmoke ~
Dutch humor:
[quote=djozz]
I do not think that the BLF-community ben
Thanks Match. I always wondered if an sst50 could be driven to approach the surface brightness of an XRE. This might do well for a thrower, but then you are well into the power requirements for a descent HID.
Review: 150 Million Candlepower Military Xenon Arc Battlefield Illuminator (AN/VSS-3A)
My new collection of 50+ Chinese knives
Outstanding job Match, I learned a lot after your post. Thanks
Match,
While taking a second look at your test results, Ive decided to scrap the ideas of building a mega high output SST-50 thrower. When examining efficiencies while driven at high current levels, the SST-50 simply isn't a logical choice when compared to the SST-90 or an HID.
I assume that you used the XM-L U2 1C during your tests? Since most people will probably mod using a driver with 8 x 7135's, its very interesting to compare your measured lumen outputs at 2.8A.
Emitter Lumens
XM-L 852
MC-E 693
SST-50 708
A few interesting realizations (for me):
* To achieve the same luminosity of the XM-L @2.8A, the SST-50 needs approximate 3.6A, while the MC-E requires 4.4A.
* The XM-L gains only 29 lumens when going from 2.8A to 3.0A.
Typical flashlights lumens will suffer far greater losses as heat rises. More often, high junction temperatures are reached fairly quickly. Considering the XM-L, it really does make sense to run at lower amps, especially for applications that run continuously for long periods of times (searchlight, bike lights, etc.) This gives me some great ideas for my next 3 x XM-L bike light. Thanks for all your hard work.
Review: 150 Million Candlepower Military Xenon Arc Battlefield Illuminator (AN/VSS-3A)
My new collection of 50+ Chinese knives
Very informative thread. Thank you very much!
Do you plan on adding more LED types to the tests? XR-E R2 (WG) perhaps, and SST-90?
Current Collection:
BLF: BLF-GT90, BLF-GT70 (CW Sliced), BLF GTmini, BLF-LT1;
BTU: Shocker (3 x SST-40 @ 8A);
Solarforce: L2P (XM-L2 U3 @ 4A), MPP-1 (XP-L HI @ 6A), MPP-3 (3 x XM-L2 U2 @ 12A), M6 (Nichia 319A @ 6A), M8 (XHP-50.2 @ 9A), 9x (9 x XM-L2 U2 @ 2A);
Coming Soon: Lumintop: BLF-GT4;
thanks very much for running these tests. This is incredibly useful for making informed decisions.
I have a question though, that I don't 'think' has come up here - if the emitter(s) were actively, and well cooled, would we see a higher peak output? Ok, it would seem obvious it would increase at least some, but I wonder how much.
Really though, what would be useful, is if it extended the nonlinear relationship of input/output. Instead of plateauing around 2.4-2.8...to say 3.5

Fair enough question....but, for the tests conducted thus far active cooling via fan and/or water would make no appreciable difference. For the given runtime on the above tests, the thermal capacity of my heatsink setup can be considered infinite (as confirmed via thermocouple/fluke monitoring). The bottleneck is the pcb.
Now having said that, I'm staring at a box containing just over half a dozen peltier coolers leftover from a different project. Using one, or better yet, stacking them can yield near cryogenic temps on the top plate where the star could be mounted. Considering each peltier requires 150w, the power requirements (and cost) launches the idea out of the realm of flashlight practicality. Although the results would be interesting for curiosity's sake, I don't see myself getting that bored yet to try.
Thanks very much for the response. I've had an internal debate for weeks on buying copper PCB xmls (instead of aluminum) for a project. I think it will be worth the extra money to buy copper.
I think you're right about the impracticality of a peltier. But let's hope for some new advancements in battery technology to change that
Even if they do, it will probably be up to us to build such things - at least on MY budget...
Folks,
Updated with XP-G data in the first post. I also cleaned it up a bit, like fixing that horrible non-linear graph for the xm-l.
-Match
Piers said " ....but who wants enough light, when you have the option for far too much "
This post has really become my reference post when deciding about current levels.
Thanks a lot M8
~ Ledsmoke ~
Dutch humor:
[quote=djozz]
I do not think that the BLF-community ben
That's crazy I have been pushing XPGs to 2.2 amps (8 chip Nanjg driver with 2 removed) because that's were they looked the brightest by eye and it was right on the money.
I am already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth.
Many thanks for this addition, Match!
(Standing by for the XR-E ...
)
I would really love to se an XP-E or XR-E q5 led in the mix.
I still like them.
They're gonna send you a green redcat with a black LED.
-Garry
My Bike Lights Thread, Optics (TIR) Comparison Beamshots, Diffusion Techniques
, MTBR’s Lights & Night Riding ForumNOTE: Now hosting my photos from my Google account. Post up if you can’t see them. Older photos hosted on Photobucket or Flickr may disappear (PM me if you want access to them).
2.2A xpg is exactly what the N-light B2s stainless steel lights are running on the 14500 ..
always got a ..."WOW that's bright".... from the crowd ...
ooooohh....aaaahh.
υμεις εστε το φως του κοσμου ου δυναται πολις κρυβηναι επανω ορους κειμενη
Dc-fix diffuser film >… http://budgetlightforum.com/node/42208
And what would be a similarily "bold" current for an XR-E?
oldbobk,
So are you saying the affect on runtime is negligible between running 1.4A vs. running 2.1A? That doesn't make any sense to me.
I also don't know if I'm up to the challenge of removing two of those chips! I'd probably look into the newer KD driver (and deal with a lousy low, or go 2 mode).
-Garry
My Bike Lights Thread, Optics (TIR) Comparison Beamshots, Diffusion Techniques
, MTBR’s Lights & Night Riding ForumNOTE: Now hosting my photos from my Google account. Post up if you can’t see them. Older photos hosted on Photobucket or Flickr may disappear (PM me if you want access to them).
The difference in run time with a 2400mah battery would be about 100 minutes for the 1.4 and 70 minutes for the 2.1 amp high, but I never use high when I am concerned about runtime.
Send me a PM when you are ready to remove the chips I can walk you through it or I can send you one premade if you want.
I am already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth.
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