Toroids and MOSFETs and firmware, oh my! (aka:'Tiny13+N-FET=???')

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comfychair
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All those shown have got to vary wildly in their uH ratings, but give similar results in calming down the lower PWM levels.

comfychair
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http://75.65.123.78/driverhacks/Dsc07193.jpg

 

edit: Tested & working with a modified version of luxdrv 030b - ramping deleted, mode levels of 1,3,9,28,85,255.

ImA4Wheelr
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Nice.  I'm guessing the tab on the back would normally connect to a heat sink and ground.  I take it, I'm guessing wrong?

comfychair
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Nope, not ground, the tab is for LED-.

http://75.65.123.78/driverhacks/screenshot.24-02-2014%2022.19.29.jpg

G = Gate (the control pin/PWM pin)

D = Drain (negative wire from the load, here that's LED-)

S = Source (battery ground)

It goes between LED- and ground just like a 7135, except it doesn't limit itself to a fixed current. Whatever your cell can deliver is what the LED gets (minus a tiny amount from the FET's internal resistance, this one is around 0.0045 ohms).

ImA4Wheelr
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Now that you say that, it does seem that the tab has an emitter wire on some drivers.  Just seems like a good place to get the heat out.  Thanks Comfy.

comfychair
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Yeah, glued on upside down with JB Weld, and flattening the legs and rebending them is probably a bit outside the intended design parameters, but you know... Evil

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At least it should be easy to solder a nice piece of copper to it.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

comfychair
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It doesn't get hot though, on any mode. It might, in the other versions using the inductors since (I think?) in that setup the FET spends more time inbetween fully on and fully off, which is where FETs can get a little unhappy and start making some reasonable amount of heat.

A copper plate wouldn't help here anyway, since if the tab touches anything that could carry heat away the FET is bypassed altogether (LED- to GND).

djozz
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comfychair wrote:

It doesn't get hot though, on any mode. It might, in the other versions using the inductors since (I think?) in that setup the FET spends more time inbetween fully on and fully off, which is where FETs can get a little unhappy and start making some reasonable amount of heat.

A copper plate wouldn't help here anyway, since if the tab touches anything that could carry heat away the FET is bypassed altogether (LED- to GND).

Correct me if I miss something, but at say 5amps and an internal resistance of 0.0045 ohms, it will only generate 0.1 W, that will easily dissipate through the connectors.

NightCrawl
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So.. this is the thread that lead to the FET driver RMM is now selling?

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Yes.  Except I'm not selling it (yet).  Comfychair's work was really what brought this all about in the first place.  DrJones & Werner have provided excellent yet simple free firmwares for anyone to flash their own drivers.

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So you are currently just selling the parts?

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That's correct.  I need to do some more testing before selling a complete driver, but it has been flawless so far with MT-G2 and XM-L2.  

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ImA4Wheelr
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Is Werner's beta published anywhere?  I've heard it alluded to in several threads.

That's the only way I will get a copy of it because he will demand $64K if I ask him for it.

comfychair
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minimo works with the momentary switch/FET drivers and minidrv with the clicky/FET drivers. luxdrv is probably better a better starting point for the clicky drivers, since it's got low voltage protection and the battery monitor mode, other modes can be changed/added/deleted.

I don't know what Werner's plans are for his version, I wouldn't want to speak for him. I tested several versions along the way on a range of driver hardware he didn't have access to to see how it behaved.

ImA4Wheelr
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I received some 07N02's today.  Yea!

I don't understand why folks aren't more excited about what is happening in this thread.  To me, it's big news.  That neat looking driver up in Post 152 would need a whole bunch of pain in the arse 7135 chips stacked up, if not for that FET.  They would also rob some voltage (can't remember .1 something volts) and therefore more wattage too.  This is just too cool. 

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ImA4Wheelr wrote:

I received some 07N02's today.  Yea!

I don't understand why folks aren't more excited about what is happening in this thread.  To me, it's big news.  That neat looking driver up in Post 152 would need a whole bunch of pain in the arse 7135 chips stacked up, if not for that FET.  They would also rob some voltage (can't remember .1 something volts) and therefore more wattage too.  This is just too cool. 

Well, if I could understand what to get excited about, maybe I would. Post #152 is a pretty picture for sure, but if I can't understand it's function with advantages/disadvantages, and can't dupe it, then it's nice to see 1 or 2 guys are having fun, but other than that, it's meaningless to me.

I'm thinking it's a direct drive, but exactly the same program as you used to control the 7135's, so using PWM's to slice the direct drive down by percentage. So for example, if you can get 100% at 6A, then lower modes are scaled on that 6A -- just like a amp limited 7135 driver? So basically you got a East-092 driver but that can be custom programmed?

I guess I'm not sure what's goin on: a work-in-progress, or is it done? If it's done, I think someone needs to summarize it, maybe start a new thread to explain what exactly it is and hopefully info on how to dupe it?

No offense meant here - really didn't want to post anything, but it does sound amazing, I'm just not getting it.

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Tom E wrote:

ImA4Wheelr wrote:

I received some 07N02's today.  Yea!

I don't understand why folks aren't more excited about what is happening in this thread.  To me, it's big news.  That neat looking driver up in Post 152 would need a whole bunch of pain in the arse 7135 chips stacked up, if not for that FET.  They would also rob some voltage (can't remember .1 something volts) and therefore more wattage too.  This is just too cool. 

Well, if I could understand what to get excited about, maybe I would. Post #152 is a pretty picture for sure, but if I can't understand it's function with advantages/disadvantages, and can't dupe it, then it's nice to see 1 or 2 guys are having fun, but other than that, it's meaningless to me.

I'm thinking it's a direct drive, but exactly the same program as you used to control the 7135's, so using PWM's to slice the direct drive down by percentage. So for example, if you can get 100% at 6A, then lower modes are scaled on that 6A -- just like a amp limited 7135 driver? So basically you got a East-092 driver but that can be custom programmed?

I guess I'm not sure what's goin on: a work-in-progress, or is it done? If it's done, I think someone needs to summarize it, maybe start a new thread to explain what exactly it is and hopefully info on how to dupe it?

No offense meant here - really didn't want to post anything, but it does sound amazing, I'm just not getting it.

SRK 7135 driver, 32 of the (350mA per chip[more if you use the 380mA versions]) 7135 chips to deliver 12A, FET board, 1 FET delivering the same or more...plus still retain the ability to have proper PWM for lower modes

Simplicity, instead of 2-8 7134's you have one bit honkering powerhouse that does the same, think of all the space saving if you use a chip just a bit larger but can deliver 10x the power

Tom E
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Yes sounds exciting, but I'm not seeing how to accomplish this exactly. So, you are saying it's a direct drive driver, like an East-092 that can be programmed? Any difference? If we had an East-092 driver with an MCU that has source code, and ability to re-program, is this design the same or better?

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Tom E wrote:

Yes sounds exciting, but I'm not seeing how to accomplish this exactly. So, you are saying it's a direct drive driver, like an East-092 that can be programmed? Any difference? If we had an East-092 driver with an MCU that has source code, and ability to re-program, is this design the same or better?

I guess then that is what you can think of it as an East-092, but you can get different max capacity FET's, ATtiny is programmable, we have the code and many .hex files
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Tom, you're correct.  All we do is strip the 7135s off the board, solder the FET in place of the 7135s (ground, then PWM out).  You can orient it however you'd like as long as it makes connection.  The phase correct firmwares work best (MiniDrv, Luxdrv).  Nlite, qlite, etc. don't play well with the FET with their "fast" PWM.  

The resistance is very low.  With 2 20R cells this driver was putting over 11A into an MT-G2 using a 105C!  I am getting 6A+ into XM-L2s.  This is shaping up to be way better than the East-092, in my opinion.  The lower modes still work great.  You do lose "regulation" but in the high amp lights who cares about that anyways?  Regulation is switching to a higher mode when the lower one gets too dim Cool

It's a fairly easy swap and you're already set up to program, so what are you waiting for?  Laughing  

Oh, and you'll want to use smaller PWM values for the low end.  You can run this all the way down to 1 for a low mode.  I typically like 1,4,20,60,120,255. 

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Ok - finally this is making some sense - thanx!! So the "FET to get" is the one comfy listed the PN of in post #154? The cap on the backside of the board stays? LED+ is wired the same way? LED- is wired from the "D" pin on the FET?

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That's right.  You can get it from eBay in a 10-pack here or from me individually here

Yes, the same cap stays.  LED+ is wired the same way.  LED- is soldered to the big flat tab (drain).

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Still very much a work in progress, though the bits and pieces are working well together. There will be dedicated boards finished up soon that will avoid all the kludginess of what's been done so far.

46mm (not the final design! - we still need to pick an inductor and tweak the BAT+ & LED+ pads to accept it):

http://75.65.123.78/blf-srk.jpg

 

17mm:

http://75.65.123.78/super092.jpg

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Ohhh, okay - I'm excited Foot in Mouth Tongue Out. So, you can get a true moonlight level (totally agree the Nanjg 5 PWM value is too much), 6A+ on 100% (I got 5.6A on Tivo532's combo driver with 2 FET's - probably could do better). Didn't realize you were selling these FET's. But how can that FET be sanded down like comfy shows and still work? I see space is tight there. Can you get a one sided (2-4 7135) programmable driver and do the same thing?? I programmed these for example: fasttech 4x7135, but now that I look at them, may be a problem fitting the FET unless you got space to sit it vertically or something.

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I didn't sand mine, but I mounted it a bit differently.  The moonlight still isn't as low with a PWM value of 1 as I can get with 7135s using the same program.

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comfychair
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The FET is just glued down upside down on the driver in #152. There's still room for the programming clip to latch on, and about 1mm clearance between the filed-off corner of the FET and the ID of a typical 17mm pill.

There's going to be more room on the 17mm 'super-092' board, since the MCU is rotated 90* like on the east-092.

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comfy - can these new design boards be downloaded via a cable from the battery side, like Tivo's Z8 boards? Can that be accommodated in the layout? Not sure how many pins, offhand, are needed... The Z8 can be done with 4 thru holes, maybe the Tiny13A needs 6? Big issue for me (software guy) is the limit of 1K code in a Tiny13A Frown. Think e-switch is the gonna be the way to go (SRK's, L4, etc.), and you can do a lot more nice software with an e-switch UI, in my opinion.

OMG! My resistor mod'ed M6 went accidentally on in my notebook case driving home from work today -- freak'n thing burnt my finger trying to shut the PIA thing off at the switch -- Yes, hold for 3 secs please, or cycle thru all modes!! Measured 170F minutes later, took  over an hour to cool off enough to hold for a sec. Had 4 fresh Sam 20Q's in there that measured 3,400 lumens @30 secs this morn - they drained to 3.26v and were very warm.

So yes!! I need a better driver like what can be done with this design, maybe a not-so-easy side switch, smarter user (me), but less power is unacceptable... Smile

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Mattaus says there's no more space left on the 17mm, it's already lost any dead space the east-092 had by switching from 0603-size parts to the 105C's 0805 stuff. And, it has pads for grounding the MCU pins same as the stars on the back of the 105C. I don't know of any firmware that uses both the stars and the phase correct PWM needed with the FET, but the board will be ready for it when somebody gets around to writing one.

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Say you wanted a typical "daily driver" with the option of several settings

You could always put on a FET that maxes at 3A

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/FQD4N20TM/FQD4N20TMFSCT-ND/3478406

Or if you wanted a mama jama to throw in your SRK or make your emitter cry for mamma, go with higher current ones (like their 60A ones above!!!!)...they have a laundry list of TO-252 style packaged FETS on most electronics outlet locations

Plus once the ATtiny13A version get's rolling...there is always the ATtiny58 with 8K of memory!

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