Driver Info: HX-1175b & HX-1175B1 (Pic Heavy)

211 posts / 0 new
Last post
RMM
RMM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 07/23/2013 - 13:47
Posts: 4006
Location: USA

Wight,  I'll admit that I don't understand what's going on with it but it seems to work.  I am feeding through the EN.  I didn't even know that we had a datasheet on this thing!  

Mountain Electronics : batteries, Noctigon, and much more! What's new? 

wight
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

RMM wrote:

Wight,  I’ll admit that I don’t understand what’s going on with it but it seems to work.  I am feeding through the EN.  I didn’t even know that we had a datasheet on this thing!  

It probably got buried in the thread somewhere, but I’m pretty confident we are looking at the QX9920 controller. http://www.yuketek.com/pdf/QX9920.pdf

Actually while getting ready to link you to it I re-read the introduction in the datasheet (through an online translation) and I see that they clearly specify using the EN pin for PWM. Whoops! I’m glad I already suspected myself, softens the blow ;-). Anyway I really want to know about that TOFF pin in this case. Maybe that pin is useless, or maybe tweaking that pin could soften the spikes. Currently I really fail to understand it’s purpose.

Will you please post screenshots from your scope showing the output from this driver? That would be really useful to me. Especially a detail shot of the spike. Thanks in advance.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

ImA4Wheelr
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 02/03/2013 - 14:51
Posts: 7935
Location: SC
Ouchyfoot wrote:
I'm building a light and plan to use this driver (7A) stock with an MT-G2. Do you forsee any problems?

I would go with what ever RMM advises, but I can say that I've been driving one at about 11.5 amps sporadically with this driver using 3S King Kongs with no issues.  I say sporadically because I don't use High mode much.  For all I know, I may be slowly beating the emitter to death, but it hasn't shown any signs of distress yet. 

wight
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

ImA4Wheelr wrote:
Ouchyfoot wrote:
I'm building a light and plan to use this driver (7A) stock with an MT-G2. Do you forsee any problems?

I would go with what ever RMM advises, but I can say that I've been driving one at about 11.5 amps sporadically with this driver using 3S King Kongs with no issues.  I say sporadically because I don't use High mode much.  For all I know, I may be slowly beating the emitter to death, but it hasn't shown any signs of distress yet. 

The voltage spike should be a *poof* situation, either it poofs or it doesn't.  So I think you should be good to go.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

RMM
RMM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 07/23/2013 - 13:47
Posts: 4006
Location: USA

I don't have any screenshots but when I'm testing the new inductors I will take some.  All I know is that 0.9V+ output ripple is A TON!  The issue we run into with buck drivers is that there really isn't very much space inside of a flashlight to fit big components.  The only way that I know of to downsize components is to switch at a higher frequency which allows for smaller capacitors and inductors, otherwise if we want high current we've got to have large components.  

Mountain Electronics : batteries, Noctigon, and much more! What's new? 

wight
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

RMM wrote:

I don’t have any screenshots but when I’m testing the new inductors I will take some.  All I know is that 0.9V+ output ripple is A TON!  The issue we run into with buck drivers is that there really isn’t very much space inside of a flashlight to fit big components.  The only way that I know of to downsize components is to switch at a higher frequency which allows for smaller capacitors and inductors, otherwise if we want high current we’ve got to have large components.  

Sounds good. You’re correct about switching at a higher freq. This is also undesirable due to increased switching losses.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

wight
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

wight wrote:
RMM wrote:

I don’t have any screenshots but when I’m testing the new inductors I will take some.  All I know is that 0.9V+ output ripple is A TON!  The issue we run into with buck drivers is that there really isn’t very much space inside of a flashlight to fit big components.  The only way that I know of to downsize components is to switch at a higher frequency which allows for smaller capacitors and inductors, otherwise if we want high current we’ve got to have large components.  

Sounds good. You’re correct about switching at a higher freq. This is also undesirable due to increased switching losses.
I still suspect that high current is doable with a small inductor. IIRC in my LD-29 thread I said I measured the freq the buck circuit was operating at as around 400-500kHz (I posted a more specific number over there). That driver puts out 3A in stock form. It gets >80% efficiency and the output is absolutely smooth. HKJ’s review shows almost no ripple, I saw the same thing in my own testing. If we can generate a smooth 3-4A output at that freq with small 7.4 × 6.6 × 3.0mm SMD inductor it seems that it should be possible (maybe not with the QX9920) to generate two or three times as much current with similar ripple using an inductor which is two or three times as large.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

ImA4Wheelr
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 02/03/2013 - 14:51
Posts: 7935
Location: SC

RMM,

Since you have an oscilloscope, you may be interested in this idea.  When I first worked on this driver, I mistakenly replaced the large diode with a 70N02 FET.  I was driving a MT-G2 around 11.5 amps and the driver behaved nicely and did not generate heat on that area of the board.  The heat generated  only in the area around the voltage sense resister bank.  Wight noticed the error I had made.  When I replaced the FET, the driver became considerable hotter due to the large diode generating heat too.

I have no idea what was happening in the driver with the FET for a diode.  Maybe it just blocked current flow through the inductor.  I've been meaning to look at the traces to consider what was happening. The big tab pad for the diode connects to the toroidal inductor which is connected to the positive LED pad.  The Ground and Gate pads share a pad that connects to the big tab pad of the FET pad.  I have know idea how an N-channel would behave with positive power applied to a FET's Ground and Gate pins and Negative to the large tab. That is something I should check with a DMM.

Who Who knows what it was doing to the emitter as that the MT-G2 is one tough hombre. That is something you have the equipment to measure should it sound like something worth exploring.

wight
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

Ouchyfoot wrote:

I tested my driver and it is now installed in the light and wired to the MTG. Just have to complete the carrier and wait for my 18500s to arrive…cross your fingers it all works.

I’m using an HX1175B buck driver.

With two 18650 it drove an MT-G2 at 3.5A, and with three cells it drove the same emitter at 7A.

Why the difference in current readings? I’ve used LCK 5A buck drivers with MTG and two cells and got the full 5A. What is different about the HX1175B that it won’t produce 7A with two cells. 

I’m not worried about it, I just want to know how it works.

Is this normal behavior for this driver? via post #43 here.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

fellfromtree
fellfromtree's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 11 months ago
Joined: 07/25/2014 - 15:14
Posts: 470
Location: spelunking

That’s something I might try with my Y3. RMM said he put two 25v 22uF capacitors on the output to absorb the spike when you turn it on. Smile

wight
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

fellfromtree wrote:
That’s something I might try with my Y3. RMM said he put two 25v 22uF capacitors on the output to absorb the spike when you turn it on. Smile
And then he said that it didn’t work. Keep reading.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

fellfromtree
fellfromtree's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 11 months ago
Joined: 07/25/2014 - 15:14
Posts: 470
Location: spelunking

Couldn’t hurt though.. It seems it was a minor success anyway. Maybe a bigger capacity cap. Or mess with a resistor to let it fill slower. Like 1-2 secs till it reaches voltage. I used to do a lot of that with relays, to add a delay to relays. Also had 1 farad cap storage (huge bank of caps back in the 90s) to keep the draw from the alternator consistent. This stuff is all coming back to me. But the big cap remember really helped smooth things out in the voltage department and kept the voltage stable from the regulator. It might work if it was just a bigger cap- I’m not sure if they make ceramic caps that big though, or if there’s enough room. I might try it though, like with a regular japanese cap to test and see if the spike is there on the lower end before and after.

I mean it can’t hurt to put it in there. The cap would make it kind of cool too cause the light would fade out

wight
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

You might learn something from doing it. It won’t do any of the things you think it will, although it won’t do much bad either.

Among other important points, understand that this driver (like other buck drivers) probably operates somewhere in the range of 1,000 to 1,000,000 cycles per second. RMM was attempting to smooth out the “turn on” spike during each of those cycles. Not some spike when the light itself is turned on.

The cap will certainly not cause any fade in or out.

As far as resistors – I cannot think of any configuration of caps and resistors that makes sense on the output side.

Just to further clarify – anything that you do which takes 1 second to take effect will not help with an LED that gets blown in under 0.001 seconds.

Unfortunately I think the truth of the matter is that the effect of adding an output cap will be so minuscule as to be undetectable without an oscilloscope. So you probably won’t learn from doing it unless you have and use a scope.

If you’re really interested in getting back on your feet with electronics and relating that to flashlights, I’d recommend figuring out current sensing. It doesn’t seem like you have a handle on that yet, and that’s a pretty basic concept. It revolves around applying Ohm’s Law. It’s hard for me to see how you’re going to either achieve or learn anything just by throwing parts at a problem which you don’t have.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

fellfromtree
fellfromtree's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 11 months ago
Joined: 07/25/2014 - 15:14
Posts: 470
Location: spelunking

Yeah your right though- never really got into power supplies. More plc programming and cooling components was my thing, and programming, wifi, car stereo.. I’m just throwing stuff out there, doesn’t mean I’m right. It’s good to have other people’s experience, even in other fields cause then someone like you who understands it better might look at a different angle. Smile

I mean if I posted half the stuff I’ve made over the years you’d sheet your pants. I don’t study basic electronics but I know enough to get it working. I’m a welder, machinist, pretty much jack of all trades. Trying my hand at flashlights- which to tell you the truth is a bit deeper than I expected Smile But that’s awesome

From my experience the cap will keep the lights on till it drained. But were talking 1 farad so Smile I was thinking if you add a resistor, that would give the cap time to put a drain on the emitter current till it filled. But if your saying the driver cycled and the spikes happen each cycle- then that makes sense, doesn’t work.

Ouchyfoot
Ouchyfoot's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 09/01/2012 - 06:15
Posts: 5089
Location: Canada

Quote:
I’m using an HX1175B buck driver.

With two 18650 it drove an MT-G2 at 3.5A, and with three cells it drove the same emitter at 7A.

Why the difference in current readings? I’ve used LCK 5A buck drivers with MTG and two cells and got the full 5A. What is different about the HX1175B that it won’t produce 7A with two cells.


I’ve never used this driver with MT-G before, so is this normal behavior?
I tested with new fully charged 18650B. Perhaps my test was flawed.
The MTG was from a newly ordered batch.
I can’t repeat the test per say, as the driver is now installed in a light, and the emitter is in a box. I could test again using the same emitter and a different new HX1175B.
Anyone else driving MT-G2 with two cells with this driver?
ImA4Wheelr
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 02/03/2013 - 14:51
Posts: 7935
Location: SC

I don't recall ever trying to measure the driver with 2S cells.  I will do my best to measure a new stock driver with 2S and then 3S tonight.

I just received the buck converter wight recommended to me in another thread.  I will also try to get around to swapping the buck converter on my broken diver and hope it does the trick.

Ouchyfoot
Ouchyfoot's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 09/01/2012 - 06:15
Posts: 5089
Location: Canada

ImA4Wheelr wrote:

I don’t recall ever trying to measure the driver with 2S cells.  I will do my best to measure a new stock driver with 2S and then 3S tonight.

.


That would be great. After I tested with two cells, all I did was add a magnet and a third cell, so I think my test was true.
The driver I used came out of another light (the same one relic is driving 3xMT-G2 with) I do have some brand new ones on hand.
Ouchyfoot
Ouchyfoot's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 09/01/2012 - 06:15
Posts: 5089
Location: Canada

Some odd test results of HX1175B and MT-G2

I tested three different HX1175B with MT-G2. Here are my results.

With 2 x 18650

Driver A - 3.5A

Driver B - 4.2A

Driver C - 4.8A

With 3 x 18650

Driver A - 7A

Driver B - 13A

Driver C - 6.8A

These are my results. I can't explain them, especially the 13A. All the modes were functioning, and I could feel it heating up fast. It kind of scared me.

wight
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

Ouchyfoot wrote:

Some odd test results of HX1175B and MT-G2

I tested three different HX1175B with MT-G2. Here are my results.

With 2 × 18650

Driver A – 3.5A

Driver B – 4.2A

Driver C – 4.8A

With 3 × 18650

Driver A – 7A

Driver B – 13A

Driver C – 6.8A

These are my results. I can’t explain them, especially the 13A. All the modes were functioning, and I could feel it heating up fast. It kind of scared me.

Please check the markings on the sense resistors of each driver (A/B/C) and post your results.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

Ouchyfoot
Ouchyfoot's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 09/01/2012 - 06:15
Posts: 5089
Location: Canada

B and C have R068 resistors. A is already wired into my Boxer, but probably the same.

wight
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

Ouchyfoot wrote:
B and C have R068 resistors. A is already wired into my Boxer, but probably the same.
Thanks. If possible I’d like to know the voltage drop across the sense resistor bank of each one while using 3s batteries. You can simply put your meter in the 2V range and put a probe on either side of the sense resistors. I’ll admit that this may not tell us much. The behavior does seem odd and that is the first place I can think of to check. The idea is to help narrow down the problem. If the voltage drop is ~0.25v at 13A then we can assume that the sense resistors are low quality and that the values do not match the markings. If the voltage is significantly higher than 0.25v then we will say that something else (the buck controller) is acting up.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

Ouchyfoot
Ouchyfoot's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 09/01/2012 - 06:15
Posts: 5089
Location: Canada

I can’t do it right now. Everything has been desoldered and put away. All my work is done on my kitchen table…and I have to eat. If I have time, maybe tomorrow.

Do I test each resistor separately, or bridge both at the same time with my probes.
You’re luring me into realms that are beyond my understanding.

Edit: I assume this should be done while the emitter is blasting away? The driver might not last long enough to do the test going at 13A. It got real hot almost instantly.

Rufusbduck
Rufusbduck's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 5 days ago
Joined: 04/04/2012 - 15:34
Posts: 10389
Location: Golden state

The resistors are all in parallel so any points on either side should be equivalent. You would have to remove them to get individual values. I think what you’re looking at is how each set compares with each other set to see if that’s where the difference in output lies.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

wight
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

Ouchyfoot wrote:
I can’t do it right now. Everything has been desoldered and put away. All my work is done on my kitchen table…and I have to eat. If I have time, maybe tomorrow.

Do I test each resistor separately, or bridge both at the same time with my probes.
You’re luring me into realms that are beyond my understanding.

Edit: I assume this should be done while the emitter is blasting away? The driver might not last long enough to do the test going at 13A. It got real hat almost instantly.


  • The resistors are electrically parallel, so you can just test one – the result is the same no matter which one you you test. You can even put one probe on the lefthand end of resistor A and the other probe on the righthand end of resistor B. The voltage drop across the bank will be the same regardless of where your measurement points are.
  • Yes, you’ll need to do it while the emitter is blasting away. You don’t have a lot of choice in the case of that 13A driver, you’ve got to figure out what’s wrong with it so that it can be repaired… otherwise it’s a waste of a $10-15 if it’s not use-able like it is. I’d get my emitter covered with a shield (to protect my eyese), get my probes set up firmly in one hand to measure voltage drop one-handed, and then complete the circuit with my other hand while watching the DMM.

I’m definitely looking forward to your results if you decide to take the time to do the test.

EDIT: RBD is correct – I just want to know how the sets compare to each other as a whole right now, no need to remove anything.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

Ouchyfoot
Ouchyfoot's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 09/01/2012 - 06:15
Posts: 5089
Location: Canada

I’m also worrying about frying my MTG at 13A
Edit: And if it’s a 7A buck driver, why not 7A with two cells? LCK 5A buck gives 5A with two cells.

wight
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

Ouchyfoot wrote:
I’m also worrying about frying my MTG at 13A
If it starts on a room temperature heatsink of decent size it should survive a few seconds to get the voltage drop for sure. You’ve got to be strict with yourself, if you fumble the probes – stop and turn the thing off. I wouldn’t waste time fiddling with the thing while it’s on, despite djozz showing that his emitter survived 16A. Do not do any testing without a heatsink. You should get a stable enough figure immediately, so it’s only a matter of the time it takes you to look at the DMM and note the reading.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

Ouchyfoot
Ouchyfoot's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 09/01/2012 - 06:15
Posts: 5089
Location: Canada

I have it clamped to a ten pound slab of copper.

wight
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

In that case I think you’re golden :-).

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

wight
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 11/27/2013 - 16:40
Posts: 4969
Location: Virginia, USA

Ouchyfoot wrote:
I’m also worrying about frying my MTG at 13A
Edit: And if it’s a 7A buck driver, why not 7A with two cells? LCK 5A buck gives 5A with two cells.
Sounds like it’s dropping out of regulation. That’s a huge dropout voltage though (>1v?). Above a certain point I assume it regulates pretty cleanly. Maybe this is related to the Zener used to power the QX9920, note that SF uses the QX9920 without an early dropout (XM-L2 driven using 1s) but they do not use the Zener to power teh QX9920, they do it directly off of battery voltage (not feasible here).

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

Ouchyfoot
Ouchyfoot's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 09/01/2012 - 06:15
Posts: 5089
Location: Canada

Then again, the LCK driver will run 3 x XML in series. I guess they’re different animals.

Note: Power Failure…there goes supper.

Pages