Anyone worked with either of these drivers from Lightmalls?

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wight
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ohaya wrote:
To your last paragraph, no, not yet, but I will do that.
Sounds good, thank you for checking.
ohaya wrote:
Here I go… dumpster diving time :)!
GL! Smile Here’s your chance to prove why you need to horde that stuff Wink

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LowLumen
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R200 is 0.2 Ohm: .9 = .18 / .2

wight
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LowLumen wrote:
R200 is a 0.2 ohm resistor.
LowLumen wrote:
R200 is 0.2 Ohm: .9 = .18 / .2
Oops. Thus proving… wow, good thing we don’t depend on me around here! I got moving too fast. Let me go back and edit (cross out) a few things… OK, done. I didn’t cross out where I was doing the datasheet math, but that was wrong too since I used incorrect units. The datasheet’s math would be more like 0.25/0.2 = 1.25A

Thanks for correcting me.

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LowLumen
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The buck drivers I have worked all use .25 , but (more efficient) drivers from sandwich shoppe have used .05 sense… so I was using .18 based on the current measures here.

This will all get sorted out sooner or later here, thanks.

wight
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Not a bad idea of course, when I was using the wrong units it was just really confusing to me where 0.18 came from. Now that I realize my mistake your logic is clear!

I fished around on the internet a little and it seems that the “LEDA” chip is definitely the QX9922. 
http://club.dx.com/forums/forums.dx/threadid.1205677

desolder wrote:

It’s the QX9920:
http://www.szroya.com/uploadFile/download/200886204048427.PDF
The IC is rated for 24V, but the input capacitor is only rated for 16V. So it appears the “5V-12V” description is the correct one.

If anyone is curious, here’s the thread claiming that it’s the QX9920, apparently from a representative of the company:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://bbs.dianyuan.com/topic/581194&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLEDA%2BSOT-23-6%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DuZE%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvns&sa=X&ei=S0cUUPWkOcbsqAGBl4CYCw&ved=0CFoQ7gEwAAp

desolder is misleading when he says that the chip is rated for 24v, the chip can run on 2-6.5v.  The diagram in the datasheet shows a 2.5v - 5.5v Zener Diode in use along with the appropriate resistor in order to keep the chip inside that range.

No doubt that's what some of the extra stuff on the PCB in this thread is.  I don't see the advantage of QX9920 over QX5241.

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ohaya
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Hi,

Sorry, too many posts have gone by, so I’ll answer the ones I know about here so we can kind of start fresh:

- [wight, I think]: That was a good call on the solder blob, i.e., you were right, that all 3 components (one end of the toroid, one end of the 151 component, and one end of the brown component) are shorted together, both the blob-less and the blob-ful board.

- [wight, again, I think]: I didn’t find an R200, but I did find an R300, so I figured I’d try that, parallel. From the post above, R300 would be .3 ohms?

So, I have R200 and R300 in parallel, i.e, so equivalent of 0.12 ohms.

Is that correct?

Anyway, I tested the driver after that, and BINGO, Iemitter on high went to ~1.62 amps (from previous 0.90 amps)!

So:

0.2 ohms => 0.9 amps

0.12 ohms => 1.62 amps

I took the Vbat/Vin quite high, > 10V, I think, but I got excited, and didn’t really watch the correlation of the Ibat/Iin vs. the Iemitter, but I did see Ibat/Iin start dropping at some point as I raised Vbat/Vin.

I’ll do that later.

So, given the above, what resistor value do you all recommend to replace the R200 “safely”?

Thanks,
Jim

EDIT: Can we get this driver to 3 amps at the emitter, or maybe even higher?

EDIT 2: And yes, I still do have all 5 modes…

wight
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It’s possible, based on your results, that the sense voltage listed in the datasheet is no longer accurate. Maybe it’s using the same sense voltage used by QX5241, approximately 205mV. Or it could be 180-290mV, who knows. Really it’s just as likely that somewhere in this mess of a driver there’s something messing up the normal sense voltage setup.

I’d dig up an R100 and put that in parallel with the R200 (for 0.0666666666666 Ohms). That should give you approximately the current you want. (maybe 2.7 – 2.9A based on what we’ve seen so far, maybe 3.75A based on what the datasheet claims (250mV sense)) If current is too high, discontinue use until you’ve increased resistance again ;-).

Pushing this current too high will generate problems related to the SS34 diode, the inductor, the no-doubt-crappy FET, etc.

EDIT: yes, you are correct about R300 and about R200 and R300 in parallel.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
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ohaya
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I just wanted to confirm: I need to look for a 0.1 ohm, 1206 resistor, right?

LowLumen
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ohaya
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LowLumen wrote:
Fastech has them:

http://www.fasttech.com/products/1002/10007371/1615807-1206-0-1r-smd-pre...

Thanks.

I saw those earlier, but they’re marked “R10”, vs. “R100”. What’s the difference between an “R10” and an “R100” resistor?

wight
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Nothing, the “R” represents a decimal point. R10000000 would also be the same thing, they are just trailing zeros.

It looks like a 1206, but I’d measure it if I wasn’t sure.

I’d also still consider an order from Mouser. For <$10 you should be able to get out of there with a decent assortment of precision sense resistors. They’ll get to you faster and if you choose the right values you’ll be in a good position to tune your output exactly as you want.

OTOH I always feel a lot of pressure to pile everything I can into a Mouser order so I don’t have to order again right away. With FT you just buy what you want, one item at a time.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

ohaya
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Hi,

BTW, for the record, I’ve added the emitter leads and tested the other board (the one with the blob) and it’s performing the same way as the first one did before I added the R300 resistor in parallel with the original R200 resistor.

So my paranoia about the blob of solder was unfounded :)…

ohaya
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wight wrote:
Nothing, the “R” represents a decimal point. R10000000 would also be the same thing, they are just trailing zeros.

It looks like a 1206, but I’d measure it if I wasn’t sure.

I’d also still consider an order from Mouser. For <$10 you should be able to get out of there with a decent assortment of precision sense resistors. They’ll get to you faster and if you choose the right values you’ll be in a good position to tune your output exactly as you want.

OTOH I always feel a lot of pressure to pile everything I can into a Mouser order so I don’t have to order again right away. With FT you just buy what you want, one item at a time.

I’ve ordered some of the R100 and R200 from Digikey, just in case, so I’ll have a pile of them :)… Shipping actually wasn’t bad… they apparently ship via USPS first class now, so it was about $3+ for the shipping.

Thanks,
Jim

wight
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Good.

If you’re game, let’s go ahead and stack R200, R200, and R300 on one driver for 0.075 ohms. That will be a good test to see how the sense voltage scales at close to 3A before you place any orders.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

ohaya
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wight wrote:
Good.

If you’re game, let’s go ahead and stack R200, R200, and R300 on one driver for 0.075 ohms. That will be a good test to see how the sense voltage scales at close to 3A before you place any orders.

Sure, I think :)… Let me give it a shot…

Jim

ohaya
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ohaya wrote:
wight wrote:
Good.

If you’re game, let’s go ahead and stack R200, R200, and R300 on one driver for 0.075 ohms. That will be a good test to see how the sense voltage scales at close to 3A before you place any orders.

Sure, I think :)… Let me give it a shot…

Jim

Hi,

Ok, it’s done. I was seeing about 2.8 amps at the emitter from when Vbat was at about 4V+!

Too late already though. I had already ordered some resistors (some .1 and some .2 ohms).

wight
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The lower we take the resistance, the higher Vcsn seems to be! (2.8 * 0.075 = 0.21)

R100 and R200 in parallel should put you at 3.15A+

~6.4v Vf + ~0.21v current sense = regulated to maybe 6.61v? At that point your batteries are dead anyway. That sounds pretty decent to me. Assuming the driver survives of course!

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

wight
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BTW, could you post the actual dimensions of the driver? Diameter & height is what I’m looking for. TIA

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

Slim Pickens
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Small buck driver, pushing 3 amps and nothing’s burnt yet…

Thanks for the write-ups, ohaya. Now we just need to see if blinkies can be nixed easily.

wight wrote:
BTW, could you post the actual dimensions of the driver? Diameter & height is what I’m looking for. TIA

+1. Also, what’s the diameter and height of the toroid, both including and excluding the winding? :bigsmile:
wight
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Slim Pickens wrote:
Now we just need to see if blinkies can be nixed easily.

I wrote a fairly long post about this, but lost it after the forum went down for that unexpected maintenance.

I don’t have much time now to re-write it, but here we go while it’s still semi-fresh in my mind. The PWM / Modes chip does not seem to be the common CX2829, who’s pinouts appear to be:
1. modes?
2. GND (or modes?)
3. modes (or GND?)
4. PWM out / LED drive
5. offtime cap
6. Vin
Ref:
Group Buy for the GearBest Ultrafire F13 post #22
http://www.chipmaker.ru/topic/95167/

As we can see from ohaya’s pictures, pins 3 and 4 appear to be “not connected” on the unmarked SOT23-6 package. If that’s correct it can’t be CX2829.

The pinout we appear to have on this driver is (guesswork!):
1. Vin or PWM (probably Vin.)
2. GND (sort of…)
3. NC
4. NC
5. offtime cap?
6. PWM or Vin (probalby PWM)

Assuming any of that is correct, pins 3 and 4 probably need to be pulled to GND or Vin in order to change mode groups, if it’s possible at all. If ohaya will set the driver on “medium” and probe those pins for voltage with a DMM we can get a better idea what’s going on and then recommend an action.

Here is how to count / enumerate the pins.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

ohaya
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wight wrote:
The lower we take the resistance, the higher Vcsn seems to be! (2.8 * 0.075 = 0.21)

R100 and R200 in parallel should put you at 3.15A+

~6.4v Vf + ~0.21v current sense = regulated to maybe 6.61v? At that point your batteries are dead anyway. That sounds pretty decent to me. Assuming the driver survives of course!

So, I guess I have a stupid question (sorry, being a little self-deprecating today :))… Why NOT short the resistor? Would current go to infinity or something?

Or is the concern that current would go high such that it might overheat the driver (which kind of seems like a good thing :))?

ohaya
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I’m not ignoring you all – I’ll try to get those physical measurements you all have asked for, today, after work.

Jim

EDIT: Also, BTW, I only have one working driver (I KNEW I should’ve ordered more of them). I used a heatgun to pull the R200 off last night, and a bunch of the components came off at the same time. I’m planning to try to re-construct the driver when the new resistors come in, but not now since it won’t work anyway – that was part of the reason I asked about shorting the resistor…

Also killed one XM-L2 so far on this “project”… kind of amazing that it’s not more :)…

ohaya
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wight wrote:
Slim Pickens wrote:
Now we just need to see if blinkies can be nixed easily.

I wrote a fairly long post about this, but lost it after the forum went down for that unexpected maintenance.

I don’t have much time now to re-write it, but here we go while it’s still semi-fresh in my mind. The PWM / Modes chip does not seem to be the common CX2829, who’s pinouts appear to be:
1. modes?
2. GND (or modes?)
3. modes (or GND?)
4. PWM out / LED drive
5. offtime cap
6. Vin
Ref:
Group Buy for the GearBest Ultrafire F13 post #22
http://www.chipmaker.ru/topic/95167/

As we can see from ohaya’s pictures, pins 3 and 4 appear to be “not connected” on the unmarked SOT23-6 package. If that’s correct it can’t be CX2829.

The pinout we appear to have on this driver is (guesswork!):
1. Vin or PWM (probably Vin.)
2. GND (sort of…)
3. NC
4. NC
5. offtime cap?
6. PWM or Vin (probalby PWM)

Assuming any of that is correct, pins 3 and 4 probably need to be pulled to GND or Vin in order to change mode groups, if it’s possible at all. If ohaya will set the driver on “medium” and probe those pins for voltage with a DMM we can get a better idea what’s going on and then recommend an action.

Here is how to count / enumerate the pins.

I’ll see if I have time to do that… but I kind of like blinkies, so it’s kind of counter-incentivization :)…

wight
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Tough luck on the components that came off. Putting them back on would be good practice for you… Smile

The buck circuit rapidly switches a FET which puts a current through an inductor. The inductor smooths out the voltage to an intermediate voltage between the full “on” voltage and the 0v off state. The duty cycle of the FET is determined by the voltage drop across the sense resistor. Duty cycle means what percentage of the time it’s turned on. Shorting the resistor will produce negligible voltage drop and push the circuit to 100% duty cycle. At 100% duty cycle Vin = Vout and Iin = Iout (more or less). In other words the buck circuit will stop stepping the voltage down and go into DD (direct drive).

Since the purpose of using buck drivers in flashlights is generally to run a much higher input voltage than output voltage (MT-G2 on 3s/4s+, XP- or XM- on 2s or 3s+), DD is catastrophic for the LED.

Taking those measurements isn’t directly useful to me either, as I don’t plan to run this driver for anything, but I think it would be a nice thing to do for other people. Maybe bridging some of those pins enables even more blinky modes ;-).

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

ohaya
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wight wrote:
Tough luck on the components that came off. Putting them back on would be good practice for you… Smile

The buck circuit rapidly switches a FET which puts a current through an inductor. The inductor smooths out the voltage to an intermediate voltage between the full “on” voltage and the 0v off state. The duty cycle of the FET is determined by the voltage drop across the sense resistor. Duty cycle means what percentage of the time it’s turned on. Shorting the resistor will produce negligible voltage drop and push the circuit to 100% duty cycle. At 100% duty cycle Vin = Vout and Iin = Iout (more or less). In other words the buck circuit will stop stepping the voltage down and go into DD (direct drive).

Since the purpose of using buck drivers in flashlights is generally to run a much higher input voltage than output voltage (MT-G2 on 3s/4s+, XP- or XM- on 2s or 3s+), DD is catastrophic for the LED.

Taking those measurements isn’t directly useful to me either, as I don’t plan to run this driver for anything, but I think it would be a nice thing to do for other people. Maybe bridging some of those pins enables even more blinky modes ;-).

wight,

Re. your last paragraph: I hope that you didn’t take my comment the wrong way – I was just kind of joking!

EDIT: And I DO appreciate your help, as well as Werner’s and LowLumens et al. I’ve learned a lot I think :)!

wight
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Don’t worry about it! Despite the time we find to chat online, I know most of us have limited time for experiments. It sounded like a joke with a grain of truth and I took it as such, but if you never find time to do the test I couldn’t blame you either.

Did you lose any of the stuff for the driver that fell apart? I was at least half serious about putting it back together. It’s definitely doable if you want to, there are orientation marks for all the components with critical orientation. I feel a little bad about that one since I pushed you to steal the resistor!

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

ohaya
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Hi,

Ok, here are the dimensions that were requested:

Board-
Diameter: 16.5 mm
Height (incl. toroid): 7.35 mm

Toroid-
O.D.: 8.89 mm
I.D.: 1.9 mm

wight
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Thanks ohaya.

Based on his post above, I think Slim Pickens may have been specifically interested in the size of the toroid itself (the donut shaped piece) without the wire wrappings.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

ohaya
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wight wrote:
Thanks ohaya.

Based on his post above, I think Slim Pickens may have been specifically interested in the size of the toroid itself (the donut shaped piece) without the wire wrappings.

I know, but winding is pretty tight. I might be able t o get the OD, but not sure about the ID.

Separate ques: Do we have enough info to know if this could do 4 amps?

wight
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ohaya wrote:
wight wrote:
Thanks ohaya.

Based on his post above, I think Slim Pickens may have been specifically interested in the size of the toroid itself (the donut shaped piece) without the wire wrappings.

I know, but winding is pretty tight. I might be able t o get the OD, but not sure about the ID.

Separate ques: Do we have enough info to know if this could do 4 amps?

I see what you mean. Maybe an accurate figure for wire thickness would be useful instead?

I think 4 amps could be a bad idea. The freewheeling diode (SS34) is not OK for that current, and I think the little shrimpy FET is also not going to be a fan of the higher current. You may be able to run this thing that way, but your losses will be high and if you get a failure it won’t be a surprise. Also, pushing a buck driver too far can zap LEDs due to spikes in the current. In short: no, do not do that. Smile

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

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