Supbeam K50 V2 Mod Thread

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Tom E
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Ohhh - ok, those results were on different lights, so not a controlled comparison. Also O-L mentioned this and I believe it - the Teflon coated wire with less strands performs better, so believe he said 20 AWG Teflon is as good or better than 18 AWG silicon wire, something like that. I am still very confident that the wire thickness is the difference of why my fully modded TN31's in the past were under-achieving, compared to others (vinh), which I later found out was using heavier gauge wires. 6.5A on a TN31/K40 is about the max. The K50 sounds like it max's out higher for sure. After working on Fenix lights, I'm a total believer in heaviest possible wire - their LED wires are the largest I've ever seen - believe it's 16 AWG (smaller than 14, larger than 18), and for them, weight does matter, so they didn't mind adding weight in the wires.

18sixfifty
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The strand count does matter. I have been using Bell wire on lights that I need to keep the wires really small for profile reasons. Lights where putting in heavy wire would set the reflector too high. It’s a single strand of heavy wire with very thin plastic coating. I have even used the wire that is used for installing cable TV. It’s a single strand of very heavy wire. I used it on multi-emitter lights. I pulled it out of the cable wire and then coated it myself with non-conductive glue.

I’m a junky, I mod lights so I can sell lights so I can buy more light to mod so I can sell lights to buy more lights to mod.

Mohl
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I was taught in my electronics classes that electrons flowed around the outside of the wire/ wires. So in theory a cable/wire with 30 strands would conduct/flow better than a wire with one strand of the same diameter because the one with more strands has more surface area compared to single strand. Of course this is only theory.

ryansoh3
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Mohl wrote:
I was taught in my electronics classes that electrons flowed around the outside of the wire/ wires. So in theory a cable/wire with 30 strands would conduct/flow better than a wire with one strand of the same diameter because the one with more strands has more surface area compared to single strand. Of course this is only theory.

Doesn’t the skin effect only apply to very high frequency AC current?

The buck driver does switch on and off very fast but the replacement wires to the LED only carries DC.

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comfychair
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High current DC wiring tends towards more smaller strands. I don't buy that junk about single conductor wire being better for DC. I think people 'discovering' some benefit with single conductor wire over stranded wire are missing some other signifcant factor and then misidentifying the cause.

Mohl
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My classes dealt only with automotive electronic systems so it was DC voltage but I was not the teacher nor did I question them about it. But nowadays I work with engineers so I can ask one at work and see what they say about it ( of course they might not be correct either but they have that degree and will NOT hesitate to tell you so)

Tom E
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I haven't done direct tests to compare wires (strand counts) - sounds like it would possibly be easy to do. I know O-L mentioned it and I thought there was other agreement/confirmation. Hope 18sixfifty can report if he noticed differences - I assume he meant less strands were better? Not sure... 

Ouchyfoot
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Another factor in the wire debate is the quality of the wire itself. There’s a lot of cheap wire out there. The Teflon wire is generally a very high quality silver coated oxygen free copper wire. So is it the strand count, or just the overall quality of the wire? I think it’s the higher quality of the wire that’s making the difference.

Tom E
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+1 ouchy, similar to what comfy said, could be other factors -- well all I do know is 20 or 18 AWG seems better than 22 AWG, least it's been my experience Smile.

Slewflash
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Would measuring the resistance with a DMM and crocodile clips help with the process of figuring this out? Just throwing a thought out there if anyone is going to test them all.

Slewflash 

ryansoh3
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Slewflash wrote:
Would measuring the resistance with a DMM and crocodile clips help with the process of figuring this out? Just throwing a thought out there if anyone is going to test them all.

It’s going to be very difficult because we’re talking miliohms and most meters can’t accurately measure many levels between 1.0Ohm and 0.0Ohm.

I like what djozz is doing, pushing a high current across the switch and then measuring the voltage drop. Much more accurate than the DMM method. http://budgetlightforum.com/node/32724

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Tom E
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Guys have measured resistance of wires, etc., but I had no clue how... Yes, regular DMM's don't read low enough, but think specialized meters can do it. Forgot who, but someone measured the resistance of the traces on the SinkPAD's and Noctigons early on - thread about the stars I think.

Update: Here it is, post #5: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/22817

 

ryansoh3
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Thinking about it, I do have access to precise bench DMM’s that can measure up to 6 digits. (Agilent 34401A)

I’ll have to compensate for the leads’ resistance, but should yield pretty solid results.

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comfychair
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It's easy to measure voltage drop (loss) through two given pieces of wire. What's not so easy is making sure they are the actual advertised wire gauge and of comparable cross section. I've noticed that it's not uncommon to find that you can for instance use the 24AWG hole in wire strippers on some 22AWG wire and not nick any of the strands, and on different brand/source 22AWG wire you can't. To be able to say for sure which is 'better' between solid vs. stranded or fine conductors vs. coarse you have to be comparing apples to apples. Just going by what's printed on the insulation isn't good enough and the kind of thing I mean when I say 'misidentifying the cause'.

Mohl
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Slewflash wrote:
Would measuring the resistance with a DMM and crocodile clips help with the process of figuring this out? Just throwing a thought out there if anyone is going to test them all.

You would have to test the wires with a digital low resistance ohmmeter or a meggar

Slewflash
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ryansoh3 wrote:
Thinking about it, I do have access to precise bench DMM’s that can measure up to 6 digits. (Agilent 34401A)

I’ll have to compensate for the leads’ resistance, but should yield pretty solid results.

Whichever is easiest should suffice I think – measuring the resistance or voltage drop. Of course more testing increases accuracy though so I welcome it if you have the time Smile

Slewflash 

Ouchyfoot
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I’ve found that to strip 24AWG stranded teflon wire, I have to use the 26AWG stranded hole to strip it. You have to be careful though. I think it’s because of the tighter, more compressed teflon coating that you need the extra bite.

comfychair
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That's a different issue specific to the teflon. I'm talking about where the wire strands inside a piece of allegedly 22 gauge wire doesn't get cut when stripped in the 24 gauge hole. And then a different type of 22 gauge wire ends up with several strands cut if you do the same with it. Just because there are standards for what a particular wire gauge should be doesn't mean there are inspectors doing surprise inspections all around the world and handing out fines for manufacturers who cheat and put a 22AWG label on spools of 24 or 26AWG wire.

Gj
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Tom E
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Ok - according to Wikipedia (I assume other sources as well), single strand wire is a better conductor than multi strand at the same gauge:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge#Table_of_AWG_wire_sizes: "AWG gauges are also used to describe stranded wire. In this case, it describes a wire which is equal in cross-sectional area to the total of all the cross-sectional areas of the individual strands; the gaps between strands are not counted. When made with circular strands (see Circle packing), these gaps occupy about 10% of the wire area, thus requiring a wire about 5% thicker than equivalent solid wire."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire: "At high frequencies, current travels near the surface of the wire because of the skin effect, resulting in increased power loss in the wire. Stranded wire might seem to reduce this effect, since the total surface area of the strands is greater than the surface area of the equivalent solid wire, but ordinary stranded wire does not reduce the skin effect because all the strands are short-circuited together and behave as a single conductor. A stranded wire will have higher resistance than a solid wire of the same diameter because the cross-section of the stranded wire is not all copper; there are unavoidable gaps between the strands (this is the circle packing problem for circles within a circle). A stranded wire with the same cross-section of conductor as a solid wire is said to have the same equivalent gauge and is always a larger diameter.

However, for many high-frequency applications, proximity effect is more severe than skin effect, and in some limited cases, simple stranded wire can reduce proximity effect. For better performance at high frequencies, litz wire, which has the individual strands insulated and twisted in special patterns, may be used."

This is another scientific explanation: http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/skineffect/page1.html, though it's for audio, which comes up with a fill factor for multi-strand of: 0.9069 (same as the 10% number above).

There are differences between AC and DC, but basically these references state the bundle of wires act as a single wire because they are all short circuited to each other.

This doesn't mean I'm rush'n to buy single strand wires any time soon, but maybe for some usages tight in space it may be an option. Our usage is DC, low voltage, relatively high currents, so not sure, but I think it applies well.

DB Custom
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If I had a mill I’d mill out the star from the back to expose the pad from underneath, then bore the appropriate guage size hole in that pad trace. I’d run the lead wire into this hole from the bottom and solder the wire into the trace hole like a via, then cut it off and sand it smooth on top. A painted on layer of mask and the surface of the star would be smooth and unobstructed.

Then again, if I really knew what I was doing I’d use connectors and make the entire assembly plug and play.

ryansoh3
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My K50 just arrived! But this was from HKE with EMS shipping. I ordered one for a fellow flashaholic.

The one from the GB should arrive in a week or two.

Here are some quick pics, but I’m not sure how to get the head open. Maybe it’s glued?

Prominent deep blue/purple AR coating on the lens.

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LSX
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I really hope it isn’t glued. That will be quite annoying.

ryansoh3
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LSX wrote:
I really hope it isn’t glued. That will be quite annoying.

I think the members at the GB were assured the head wasn’t glued.

Maybe it’s just my light from HKE, I’ll try to open it up.

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penumbra
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i have mail with invoice but no tracknumber today from the groupsbuy .
or not mail it was send

ryansoh3
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penumbra wrote:
i have mail with invoice but no tracknumber today from the groupsbuy . or not mail it was send

I haven’t gotten a tracking number either, I’ll PM Bella and see what she says.

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Ejected Filament
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No tracking number here either. But the email I got with the invoice is a confirmation plus invoice attached. At a guess, maybe they are waiting to ensure the details are correct? Giving it some time for people who have incorrect information to respond.

unknown00101
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Ejected Filament wrote:
No tracking number here either. But the email I got with the invoice is a confirmation plus invoice attached. At a guess, maybe they are waiting to ensure the details are correct? Giving it some time for people who have incorrect information to respond.

That makes sense, but it also said no need to respond if all is good. Perhaps a confirmation email needs to be sent. I’ll wait to see what Bella says to Ryan though.

All these guys getting a K50 in the mail is making me itchy all over. Silly

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^ LOL, +1

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ryansoh3 wrote:
My K50 just arrived! But this was from HKE with EMS shipping. I ordered one for a fellow flashaholic. The one from the GB should arrive in a week or two. Here are some quick pics, but I'm not sure how to get the head open. Maybe it's glued?

 

Sweet!

I expect to see a full mod tutorial by the time I get my light. No pressure

Now. Chop, Chop. Big Smile

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