Carclo not going to make triple XP-L optics (possible group buy for custom TIR)

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Turby3Pots
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Actually I requested the 10507 as it was the least floody optic I think (could be wrong.)

I wondered would he responded differently had I not specified the 10507 (probably not, considering he wants 5 figures to make one)

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Let's put this up on Kickstarter.  Do a nice video or make it funny and those idiots will fund anything.

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10507 is like a mule, but with a restrictor to block out any spill. It's a 'spot' lens. 10511 (after polishing) has something resembling a center hotspot, and normal amount of spill.

wight
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comfychair wrote:

10507 is like a mule, but with a restrictor to block out any spill. It’s a ‘spot’ lens. 10511 (after polishing) has something resembling a center hotspot, and normal amount of spill.

The resulting beam pattern may look like that, but the efficiency numbers seem to indicate that the output is not being achieved in the way you describe. ~90% efficiency doesn’t sound like a restrictor blocking spill, it sounds like efficient TIR bringing everything it can OTF. No?

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If you compare a 20mm triple XP or Nichia with a 20mm single XM it’s pretty easy to see that the single has a tighter beam and since a 20mm single XP is tighter than a 20mm single XM it would be a difficult proposition to design a 20mm triple XM that had a very tight beam. I think it could be noticeably better than a mule but you won’t get there by mutilating an XP triple. It needs to be redesigned with a larger center hole and reshape the inverted dome to focus the larger XM die. Most of the light is emitted in a ~130 degree cone so the loss at the base is less of a problem than having the wrong shape in the rest of the optic and widening the base of the TIR would either steepen the sides or shorten the depth. I’m in favor of trying things just on principle but in this case I’m thinking the gains will be minimal. Not zero but maybe not worth a huge investment. I certainly don’t think it’s possible for an optic designed for a domed triple XP-L to focus better than an XP-g optic on a dedomed triple XP-L though it should have higher lumen numbers. Maybe that makes it worthwhile, I don’t know.

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leaftye wrote:

Let’s put this up on Kickstarter.  Do a nice video or make it funny and those idiots will fund anything.


Make sure you mention graphene a few times…wooo!
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wight wrote:
comfychair wrote:

10507 is like a mule, but with a restrictor to block out any spill. It's a 'spot' lens. 10511 (after polishing) has something resembling a center hotspot, and normal amount of spill.

The resulting beam pattern may look *like* that, but the efficiency numbers seem to indicate that the output is not being achieved in the way you describe. ~90% efficiency doesn't sound like a restrictor blocking spill, it sounds like efficient TIR bringing everything it can OTF. No?

Yes, I just mean what it looks like on the wall/in use. Lots of people seem to have gotten the impression the 10507 is the 'throwiest' of the TIRs... it's far from that. It's just a big fat circle that's the same intensity from the center out to the cutoff. Like a mule with a restrictor on it! Wink

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I've not seen a TIR that gave a defined hot spot, with a little spill. They are more like Comfy says. Some type of spot, but it blends out to be just one large beam. That's what they are designed for. They are not really for spotlights. They are for indoor use and they do direct light better than an incandescent does. They do make a spot, but it's not harsh like a reflector, it's more mellow and even. They do what they are intended for, but we try to make them do what they are not intended for.

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The 10511 comes with the front face frosted, and in stock form does have a very large fluffy center spot as you'd expect with a frosted TIR. But if you polish it with jeweler's rouge, it turns into something along the lines of a domed XML2 in a 17-18mm OP reflector.

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10507a

10507b

This is the 10507. It's the clear one I always use. The center holes, (from the bottom side), are straight wall and flat up inside. The top holes are straight wall, but are shaped more like an aspheric inside. That way the lens sort of works like an aspheric and produces the beam the way it does. Kind of like a de-focused aspheric lens, which looks like a controlled mule.

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comfychair wrote:

The 10511 comes with the front face frosted, and in stock form does have a very large fluffy center spot as you’d expect with a frosted TIR. But if you polish it with jeweler’s rouge, it turns into something along the lines of a domed XML2 in a 17-18mm OP reflector.

Agreed. a front-face polished 10511 produces the best beam pattern by far of any of the Carclo triple optics.

I wonder if Carclo will sell us 10511 optics without the frosting? Is the frosting a final step that they could just omit from a batch sold to BLF? if that’s the case, then there might not be any need for tooling costs.

This won’t help with the problem of fitting an XPL inside, but could produce a more pleasing beam than polishing with jeweler’s rouge.

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comfychair wrote:

Yes, I just mean what it looks like on the wall/in use. Lots of people seem to have gotten the impression the 10507 is the ‘throwiest’ of the TIRs… it’s far from that. It’s just a big fat circle that’s the same intensity from the center out to the cutoff. Like a mule with a restrictor on it! Wink

comfychair wrote:

The 10511 comes with the front face frosted, and in stock form does have a very large fluffy center spot as you’d expect with a frosted TIR. But if you polish it with jeweler’s rouge, it turns into something along the lines of a domed XML2 in a 17-18mm OP reflector.

Thanks. I’ve only tried the “narrow spot” optics myself, laboring under the impressions you described. I don’t have a 10511 but I will now proceed to get one and try that out! Have you found that this also applies to the 20mm optics?

Firelight2 wrote:
Agreed. a front-face polished 10511 produces the best beam pattern by far of any of the Carclo triple optics.

I wonder if Carclo will sell us 10511 optics without the frosting? Is the frosting a final step that they could just omit from a batch sold to BLF? if that’s the case, then there might not be any need for tooling costs.

This won’t help with the problem of fitting an XPL inside, but could produce a more pleasing beam than polishing with jeweler’s rouge.

Hmm. Sounds legit, I doubt that the frosting is part of the mold.

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I like the idea of the 10511 without the frosting. Anyone know what is the difference in dome height between the XPG2 and the XPL? I had entertained the idea of printing or shaping from small plastic tubing some extensions that would place the optic at the correct distance. Could we do an order of 10511s without frosting and slightly longer legs?
Comfychair, you wrote about experimenting with extending the legs of triple optics and there were issues. What were the problems that you encountered?

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scottyhazzard wrote:
I like the idea of the 10511 without the frosting. Anyone know what is the difference in dome height between the XPG2 and the XPL? I had entertained the idea of printing or shaping from small plastic tubing some extensions that would place the optic at the correct distance. Could we do an order of 10511s without frosting and slightly longer legs?
Comfychair, you wrote about experimenting with extending the legs of triple optics and there were issues. What were the problems that you encountered?
The optic doesn’t just hover over the dome, there is a hole in the bottom that the dome must enter. If the dome isn’t enveloped by the optic, you aren’t going to get the desired result.

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wight wrote:

Firelight2 wrote:
Agreed. a front-face polished 10511 produces the best beam pattern by far of any of the Carclo triple optics.

I wonder if Carclo will sell us 10511 optics without the frosting? Is the frosting a final step that they could just omit from a batch sold to BLF? if that’s the case, then there might not be any need for tooling costs.

This won’t help with the problem of fitting an XPL inside, but could produce a more pleasing beam than polishing with jeweler’s rouge.

Hmm. Sounds legit, I doubt that the frosting is part of the mold.

If someone wants to check with Carclo and do a group buy of 10511 optics without the frosting, I’d be in for a bunch! :bigsmile:

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If you're going to have them make a special run, why not just ask for XP-L with a 8 degree or 5 degree spot and get what you want?

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Old-Lumens wrote:

If you’re going to have them make a special run, why not just ask for XP-L with a 8 degree or 5 degree spot and get what you want?

I think you missed post #19. The reason is an estimated $15k-30k of tooling costs.

We are hoping/assuming that unfrosted triples can be made simply by omitting a step in the manufacturing process. The idea is not directly related to using XP-L emitters in a triple.

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^^ This

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I wonder if other TIRs that are frosted have a tighter beam when polished.

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wight wrote:
Old-Lumens wrote:

If you're going to have them make a special run, why not just ask for XP-L with a 8 degree or 5 degree spot and get what you want?

I think you missed post #19. The reason is an estimated $15k-30k of tooling costs. We are hoping/assuming that unfrosted triples can be made simply by omitting a step in the manufacturing process. The idea is not directly related to using XP-L emitters in a triple.
OK, but the frosted one is the same as the clear one, except it's frosted. I don't get it. The same 10 degree spot, so why does everyone think it's better? 10507 is 10 degree narrow clear and 10511 is a 10 degree narrow frosted.

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scottyhazzard wrote:
I wonder if other TIRs that are frosted have a tighter beam when polished.
They would be. Frosted is the same as using film over a reflector. It blends everything out and makes it look like a larger spot.

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Old-Lumens wrote:

wight wrote:
Old-Lumens wrote:

If you’re going to have them make a special run, why not just ask for XP-L with a 8 degree or 5 degree spot and get what you want?

I think you missed post #19. The reason is an estimated $15k-30k of tooling costs. We are hoping/assuming that unfrosted triples can be made simply by omitting a step in the manufacturing process. The idea is not directly related to using XP-L emitters in a triple.
OK, but the frosted one is the same as the clear one, except it’s frosted. I don’t get it. The same 10 degree spot, so why does everyone think it’s better? 10507 is 10 degree narrow clear and 10511 is a 10 degree narrow frosted.

Except that it’s not.

The clear 10507 has a different shape directly over the emitters, including the 3 sunken holes. The frosted 10511 is completely flat on the front with no recessed holes.

The beam patterns they produce are quite different from each other. This can be immediately seen when you compare a a rouge-polished 10511 to a standard clear 10507.

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Old-Lumens wrote:

scottyhazzard wrote:
I wonder if other TIRs that are frosted have a tighter beam when polished.
They would be. Frosted is the same as using film over a reflector. It blends everything out and makes it look like a larger spot.

You need to get one of each and compare them side by side. They're totally different.

Or you could check out some of the dozens of 3-up TIR comparison pics I've posted...

Mouseover to compare 10507 to a polished 10511

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And here's what happens when you unfrost a 10511...

Stock frosted 10511 shown, mouseover for polished

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Firelight2 wrote:
Old-Lumens wrote:

OK, but the frosted one is the same as the clear one, except it's frosted. I don't get it. The same 10 degree spot, so why does everyone think it's better? 10507 is 10 degree narrow clear and 10511 is a 10 degree narrow frosted.

Except that it's not.
Sorry, I should have kept quiet. I don't know what I am talking about...        Wait, I do that most of the time, but it's no excuse.Frown

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Old-Lumens wrote:

Firelight2 wrote:
Old-Lumens wrote:

OK, but the frosted one is the same as the clear one, except it’s frosted. I don’t get it. The same 10 degree spot, so why does everyone think it’s better? 10507 is 10 degree narrow clear and 10511 is a 10 degree narrow frosted.

Except that it’s not.
Sorry, I should have kept quiet. I don’t know what I am talking about…        Wait, I do that most of the time, but it’s no excuse.Frown

Never keep quiet. You had a different understanding of how their shaped. It’s not like you were trying to deceive. And the answer that your post provoked helped me understand why the beams are different. So keep up the good work.

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I’ve got two XP-L triple boards. Supposedly they are too tall to fit under a Carclo triple XP-G lens. I took a Carclo triple 10507 and placed it over one of the XP-L triples. It stops only 1-2 mm’s from fitting. This is the whole reason I thought I needed to dedome. Then I slowly pressed them together under little more than slight finger pressure. They fit, and also can be pulled apart without damaging the domes. The triple is not mounted or wired so no beam patterns were observed. Anyone see any problems with this?
I can see the optics being heated and the holes opening up under the domes pressure. Shouldn’t be an issue if it does.
I can see the domes dedoming under the heat and pressure, especially if the optics are ever removed.
Or it just all works without issue.

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I do like the sounds of this! I am all about some crush-to-fit.

I didn’t want to de-dome, but thought I had to..

pity i’m already built, tho I guess i could hand-down and build another….

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I said I would post this last week in another thread but couldnt remember where…

This is how I do my triple and quad XP-L’s, I take a super sharp, fine tip blade (I actually use my EDC knife- my Sebenza) and very lightly trim the inside of the bottom lip of each optic cup. Be very careful not to touch the tip of the blade to the bottom of the hollowed out dome or it will make horrible artifacts. Takes about 45seconds per individual cup. Works the same exact way on both triple and quad carlco’s.

This way the dome doesnt contact the TIR at all, ANY pressure side-to-side when the emitter is hot will rip the dome right off and if downward pressure is applied at the same time (as would be) it will tear the bond wires and destroy the LED. This method doesnt effect the beam at all and keeps the LED and optic from contacting eachother.


In this one only the right cup as been trimmed (this is for an RGBW light using color XP-E2’s but same process for a quad XP-L)

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Cool. Thanks for posting your explanation CK. Big Smile

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