Nichia 219C, testing a 5000K 83CRI emitter, comparing with a XP-G2 S4 2B and other leds

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Tom E
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ReManG wrote:
Any good sources for the 4000K version of this LED? I like the 5000K, but would like to see the other as well... I found the Osram SSL's on Mouser in 4000K, but cannot seem to locate these anywhere in anything other than 5000K

I got my 219C 4000K's at Cutter, here: http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut2744 - good price except for the shipping.

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djozz wrote:

The Nichia 219C is the newest upgrade in the 219 series. The Nichia 219 leds have become famous for their 90+ CRI variants, giving better colour reproduction than any Cree or other led, but in the performance section they were way behind Cree at start.  But since back then the 219 has come a long way: the 219B performed way better than the 219A, and this test shows another huge leap with the 219C.

The 90+ CRI versions of the 219C are not on the market yet, but I was able to purchase this Nichia 5000K 83CRI B280-300 led from Lumitronics in Germany (the picture on the site is wrong btw). Voltage and current performances from this test will be comparable for the upcoming high CRI variants (when time comes, I want to test them as well for output and colour performance), but for now let’s see how this 5000K 83CRI led compares to a latest bin XP-G2 Smile

The Nichia was reflowed on a 16mm Noctigon board and tested for voltage and output using my usual method, described in the XP-L test-thread, except that for this test my 46cm integrating sphere was used (should not make a difference for the results). Also I tested a Cree XP-G2 S4 2B led, for comparison and also because I have thusfar only tested lower binned XP-G2’s and the newer XP-G2’s are said to have higher voltages (and higher output of course).

For the graphically challenged, here are the raw collected data from the tests, also because I find the actual numbers always very useful for reference (in blueish green the Nichia numbers, in greenish green the XP-G2 numbers):

For comparison, in the graph I added some already posted test data (collected with the exact same method): for the Nichia219B 4500K 90+CRI, the new Osram Oslon Square 4000K 90+CRI, and an old batch cool white XP-G2 R5. Note that output differences are partly a result of varying colour temprature and CRI of the different leds in the graph.

 

 

So what can be seen?

*I have put way to many lines in this graph, I hope you can make things out Sad

*the output of the 219C is very very good, close to the (cooler tinted and lower CRI) latest XP-G2! The maximum at 6.2A is the same as the XP-G2, so Nichia has (silently) managed to achieve the same low thermal resistance as Cree. And look at the difference with the 219B (maximum at 3.8V), this is a huge leap again.

*the 219C has the lowest voltage of the bunch, and so much lower than the XP-G2 that it is more efficient at all currents. The voltage is even significantly lower than the Cree XM-L2 (0.25V ! lower at 6A). This makes the 219C very easy to use in single li-ion flashlights, it will even require current regulation (polish up your Qlites!), with FET-drivers it may draw more current than you would like!

*I really tried, but could not kill the 219C, I stopped at 10A. After that I looked for decreased performance, checked at 4.4A, and found just 2.5% less output. This could be caused by what looks from the side like a semi-detached dome (led at .5mA). Having been at 10A for 2 minutes, I can not blame this led Cool:

*the 92CRI new Oslon Square that I tested recently, outperformed the Nichia 219B, but compared to the 219C the Oslon will probably loose it (but a definite answer is there when the 92CRI 219C becomes available).

*this XP-G2 S4 2B has a fairly constant 0.2V higher voltage than this old batch XP-G2 R5 over most of the current range. This is consistent with the general observation on the newer Cree leds.

 

With these results I am curious about the dedomed performance of the 219C. The XP-G2 still has the advantage of a bit better output and of a bit smaller die size (1.45×1.45mm, compared to 1.6×1.6mm for the 219), but I really like the uniformity of the 219C die for use in aspherics:

(here at 0.5mA, and after the torture)

 

Conclusion

The Nichia 219C seems a fantastic upgrade over the 219B, in performance, voltage and thermal resistance. I’m also really looking forward to the 90+ CRI variants. As already said in the new Oslon Square test: it is high time that Cree launches a new generation XP-G2.

Thanks for reading!

(stereo picture)

You should add a bunch of other emitters like the XPL and XML, need moar data!!!

ReManG
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Check his signature block at the bottom…. Djozz is a very prolific tester….

Hint: It says DJOZZ Tests in blue…

Tom E
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Camo5 - please read this opening post thoroughly: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/26665, report back Smile. You will (may) find buried in there a whole section dedicated to djozz's tests, all the thread links - I'm guessing it's bout 1/4 the way into it.

The linked thread's OP is an incredible amount of work to put together and does a great job summarizing things.

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For some reason I had been having a very hard time finding this data. thanks!!

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Camo5 wrote:
You should add a bunch of other emitters like the XPL and XML, need moar data!!!

ReManG wrote:
Check his signature block at the bottom.... Djozz is a very prolific tester.... Hint: It says DJOZZ Tests in blue...

just added another one: Nichia 219B V1 4000K 93CRI Party

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So……in a light with one cell only it’s probably best to use this new Nichia Led, due to the low Vf (3,5V 6A) because with one cell the XP G2 S4 would probably reach no more then 4A 3,9V…..?

Grtz
Nico

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djozz wrote:

I dedomed the XP-G2 S4 2B also (this one worked fine except for a small piece of silicone on one corner of the die) and made pictures of the two emitters under the stereo microscope at the exact same magnification, then Photoshopped the dies next to each other (I did not match the sizes, both leds are indeed the exact same size), the dies look the same size too (so is the S4 bigger than before? I don’t know). I have to go to bed now, so no further measurements, but last thing I did was measuring the XP-G2 emitter with caliphers and I measure exactly 3.5mm (if we did not already know that, but I never measured it myself), so you can work out the real size of the dies from the picture below (good luck ;) )

EDIT: Oh shoot, took out the ruler and I measured it all the same, I measure the XP-G2 die size at 1.48×1.48mm. Apparantly the 219C die is smaller than the 219B die :) (and now for the succesful dedome, who can do it?)

Hi djozz,

I’ve just found this picture and it could be the answer to a question that was bugging me for a while. Assuming this is a XP-G2 on the right:
Are there some revisions of the XP-G2 with a different number of “dots” at the die? I’ve swapped some Latticebright with XP-G2 in those violet AA Zoomies (“Ultrafire Q5” or SK72XPE/SK72) and the older one of the XP-G2 has rows of 4/5 dots. The one I’ve just recently bought from Fasttech has more dots per row (6/7) and they are less noticeable, what is a good thing when the light is focused. Another difference is the lack of the small “+” sign on top beside the dome at the newer XP-G2. I was afraid they are fake, but the colour of the base and other characteristics match the known CREE’s I have. Brightness is also on the same level.

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I’m wondering if I should use 2 or 3 of this nichias for a mountainbike-helmet-light with a LD-2(M) driver set to 6A. Is it safe to use them constantly for 20 minutes on 2 or 3 amps, if well cooled?
I red that they survive much higher currents for seconds, but has any of you tried them with higher currents for a longer time?

djozz
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mrradlos wrote:
I'm wondering if I should use 2 or 3 of this nichias for a mountainbike-helmet-light with a LD-2(M) driver set to 6A. Is it safe to use them constantly for 20 minutes on 2 or 3 amps, if well cooled? I red that they survive much higher currents for seconds, but has any of you tried them with higher currents for a longer time?

The test in the OP was on a DTP copper board. Assuming such boards, my gut feeling tells me if they survive 10 amps for a short period without damage, they will survive 3 amps, which is well below its maximum output, without problems for a prolonged period.

mrradlos
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Well that’s what I think too. Mine are on Noctigon boards. Nichia claims 1.8A maximum (cont.) and 2.4A for peaks. So I will probably try the 3A 8)

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I have not had trouble with 12 × 380 ma 7135 in my CNQ.

Flashlight designers should look at lighthouses and pottery.
这些谁设计的手电筒应该看灯塔,以及在陶器。

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Okay djozz, I’m relying on your superior understanding of the 219C.

I want to build a triple, and it’s my understanding that a BLF DD driver would not be prudent for this emitter.
In a properly copper heatsinked torch with a regulated driver what do you feel would be the ultimate current to drive this emitter to perfection. I mean getting everything it can give (safely) before it starts playing games?

Edit: or would a DD driver be okay in single cell parallel setup.
And what would be the best in a single emitter light?

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Ouchyfoot wrote:
Edit: or would a DD driver be okay in single cell parallel setup. And what would be the best in a single emitter light?

I have been running a single 219C with a FET+1 driver in a beater host (one of the fake red S2+ from GB) for the past couple of weeks. I like it. Good tint with power-to-go when you need it.

It does OK with the FET+1 driver, but I would not recommend the simple FET DD drivers. The low modes would be terribly inefficient, with huge PWM current spikes.

My FET+1 driver is set up to use mainly the 7135, with a single turbo mode that uses the FET for DD only. The turbo mode has a 30 s timeout. The driver also steps down when the driver voltage drops below 3.4 V, and this happens very quickly on anything but a fresh IMR/INR cell. I will probably change the step-down to 3.2 V to better match the low Vf of the 219C.

The pill is aluminum, which I suspect is doing better than a brass pill would. The body heats up instantly when going DD, but the current is reasonable. < 5.2 A, even with fresh-off-the-charger 30Qs. Springs will smoke and absolutely needs to be bypassed or low resistance bronze type. Not sure how long the switch will last. I am using 1.5” 22AWG wires.

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So guys it should handle 2.8A in thermal modded P60 dropin?
MIke

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djozz
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2.8A through a 219C is a very decent current provided that it is mounted on a dtp copper board. And a triple 219C on a direct driver should be fine too, but very proper heatsinking should be taken care of.

In fact I have a triple 219C with a BLF-A6 driver (direct drive FET+7135) in the titanium Rey-host that has fairly lousy heatsinking. I do not dare running it with a 18650 on turbo for longer than 30 seconds, but longer on a 18350.

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This thread is very helpfull.
I made my choice.
The beautiful s4 host(fasttech) a BLF A6 A17DD + 7135 (banggood) and a 219c from intl-outdoor.
And a NCR18650B
It will be a great EDC ;
If diode draw too much amps .I will mod a Nangj for this light.
I want 6.2 amps :bigsmile:

Waiting everything arrive.

Thank a lot for this thread.

Somebody know wherre to buy copper pill for this hoste and I can buy a SMO reflector for it?

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@PyroLight: make sure that your heatsinking is very good! And at 6.2A I'm sure the led-lifetime of 50000 hours will not be reached Wink

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It’s because of this I’m searching copper pill for the S4 host.
I find one for S2.
But impossible to retreive the site.

finges
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PyroLight wrote:
It’s because of this I’m searching copper pill for the S4 host.
I find one for S2.
But impossible to retreive the site.

Where did you find the S2 pill?
PyroLight
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can’t retrieve the site. I was hopping somebody as the link.

PyroLight
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Ebay ^^
http://www.ebay.com/itm/True-Copper-pill-slug-to-install-Carclo-6mm-heig...TIR-into-Convoy-S2-S3-/261940436045?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cfcdddc4d
It’s ended and for triple.
Sorry.

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PyroLight wrote:
And a NCR18650B It will be a great EDC ; If diode draw too much amps .I will mod a Nangj for this light. I want 6.2 amps :bigsmile:

If you want 6.2 amps, I expect the NCR18650B is not the best battery.

I bought the BFL Special Edition A6 flashlight. It, of course, uses the same driver you are getting. In the A6, I am running a Samsung 30Q.

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KeepingItLight wrote:

PyroLight wrote:
And a NCR18650B It will be a great EDC ; If diode draw too much amps .I will mod a Nangj for this light. I want 6.2 amps :bigsmile:

If you want 6.2 amps, I expect the NCR18650B is not the best battery.

I bought the BFL Special Edition A6 flashlight. It, of course, uses the same driver you are getting. In the A6, I am running a Samsung 30Q.


Maybe you can adjust the resistance with the springs and wires to get six amps with a particular cell type. More than six would definitely be bad.

Flashlight designers should look at lighthouses and pottery.
这些谁设计的手电筒应该看灯塔,以及在陶器。

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Right!

I neglected to say that I am barely getting 4 amps out my A6s. That's because I do not have the springs bypassed.

PyroLight
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Hum thank’s for every answer.
But I want to understand something.
I have my Jax Z1 with sbt 70 and a FET driver.And with a NCR18650B and I got 8.90 amps.
But I know the vf of the sbt70 is 3.3v. The 219c as 3.8volts? If I’m right the fet driver can deliver the maximum amps the diode need?
But I don’t planned to lower the resistance of all springs to limite the current.
4.5 amps with the ncr18650b is possible? Or you got the max amps with a 30q?

If I don’t get blue tint shift I’m okay.

Edit: I don’t want to get the maximum amps in the led. This light will be my EDC light. I’m waiting every parts of the light.

PyroLight
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How do you adjuste the resistance? If I let the spring whitout any solder braid. It will limite the current. I think I will get a great 4 amps.

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PyroLight wrote:
Hum thank's for every answer. But I want to understand something. I have my Jax Z1 with sbt 70 and a FET driver.And with a NCR18650B and I got 8.90 amps. But I know the vf of the sbt70 is 3.3v. The 219c as 3.8volts? If I'm right the fet driver can deliver the maximum amps the diode need? But I don't planned to lower the resistance of all springs to limite the current. 4.5 amps with the ncr18650b is possible? Or you got the max amps with a 30q? If I don't get blue tint shift I'm okay. Edit: I don't want to get the maximum amps in the led. This light will be my EDC light. I'm waiting every parts of the light.

Sorry to say, I am not qualified to help out with your mods. Hopefully, someone will be able to add to what you have posted.

I am concerned, however, that pulling 8.90 amps from a Sanyo/Panasonic NCR18650B exceeds the maximum continuous discharge current specified by the manufacturer for that battery. I have one (evidently older) document from Sanyo that specifies 4.875 amps as the maximum. On web sites like Orbtronic's, I frequently see 6.8 amps (2C).

Ouchyfoot
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I believe NCR18650B are Panasonics.

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Right. Panasonic purchased Sanyo, including its battery division. I have edited my post above to say Sanyo/Panasonic instead of Sanyo.

A rose by any other name is still a rose. It looks like an 8.90-amp draw is significantly more than this battery is rated for. What say you?

 

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