My SS/CU Combo is stated as “The item is pre-advised” since 2016-01-27 (!!) 05:52;
hopefully they repacked the box for safer shipping without dancing flashlights inside!!
Mine also the same date.
—
Old-Lumens wrote:
I love modding, but I don't have much use at all for flashlights in general.
Will the led in the tailcap keep draining the battery even if the light itself has shut off due to low voltage? Just drained a 14500 and when I clicked the button, the led at the button switched on.
Will the led in the tailcap keep draining the battery even if the light itself has shut off due to low voltage? Just drained a 14500 and when I clicked the button, the led at the button switched on.
Yes, the tailcap led doesn’t run through the mcu like the main emitter does, so there’s no low voltage protection for the tailcap led (except its own Vf I suppose, but that probably won’t do much to help you). It would take months for the tailcap led by itself to drain a battery to dangerous levels, but an already depleted cell shouldn’t be left in these lights.
Will the led in the tailcap keep draining the battery even if the light itself has shut off due to low voltage? Just drained a 14500 and when I clicked the button, the led at the button switched on.
Yes, the tailcap led doesn't run through the mcu like the main emitter does, so there's no low voltage protection for the tailcap led (except its own Vf I suppose, but that probably won't do much to help you). It would take months for the tailcap led by itself to drain a battery to dangerous levels, but an already depleted cell shouldn't be left in these lights.
Good to know. The depleted cell showed 2.81V on my DMM, so there isn't much room left.
Will the led in the tailcap keep draining the battery even if the light itself has shut off due to low voltage? Just drained a 14500 and when I clicked the button, the led at the button switched on.
Yes, the tailcap led doesn't run through the mcu like the main emitter does, so there's no low voltage protection for the tailcap led (except its own Vf I suppose, but that probably won't do much to help you). It would take months for the tailcap led by itself to drain a battery to dangerous levels, but an already depleted cell shouldn't be left in these lights.
Good to know. The depleted cell showed 2.81V on my DMM, so there isn't much room left.
Actually, because blue leds are chosen for the lighted tailcap, you need well over 2V to get them lighted at all (and thus draw current). I do not know at which exact voltage, but my guess is that with the battery at around 2.5V the leds will not light anymore and further battery drains stops. Perhaps someone can check?, I do not have the lights in yet.
Have the lights here now. The damages are only slightly visible. The photos looked much worse than it looks in real life. There was much black “dirt” from the inside of the box on the lights. Could clean most of it easily. The X6 is in perfect condition. The X5 has some minor scratches on the bezel. I can live with that.
Have the lights here now. The damages are only slightly visible. The photos looked much worse than it looks in real life. There was much black “dirt” from the inside of the box on the lights. Could clean most of it easily. The X6 is in perfect condition. The X5 has some minor scratches on the bezel. I can live with that.
Thanks to the Team!
I think most of the photos we’ve seen of damage would be the same story in real life. Mine isn’t perfect either if I really look for it, but its not a problem for me because the marks are so minor. Mine had black “dirt” too, which comes from the foam in the box being eroded by the lights shifting and bouncing around during shipping. So do most of the tiny marks, I bet. I’m sure the marks on my X5 tailcap came from striking the knurling on the X6 during shipping. Both of those issues, the eroded foam and the minor marks, could be solved by better packaging. The first reports of damage were quickly blamed on Manker, and some of the marks could be from their handling during production, but I’d bet that easily 90% of the marks on my lights came from shipping. We could probably test that theory. I wonder how many of the unboxed sets, SN between 251-400, have the same marked up X5 tailcaps some of the rest of us are reporting?
I hope the team leaders don’t take this post as a complaint. It isn’t meant that way and anybody can read back through my comments of the past few days and see me defending these lights and this team over and over. So I’m not trying to stir something up, but I do think that Banggood could learn a bit about properly protecting and handling items like this and I hope we can help them do it. For instance, they’ve obviously got tons of that white foam sheeting there they use for wrapping boxes. Just a thought, but one piece inside the box could have probably saved a lot of minor issues. This set of lights is awesome and I’ve got no real complaints, but maybe the next lights they sell me can be even more awesome.
does any know about maintenance with these lights? what can i use to oil the threads is it the same as a normal light? or will a petroleum based lube cause problems with tarnishing? seeing its not alloy oil can east away at the flashlight?
People have a variety of opinions on flashlight grease… I find that “Super Lube” (PTFE / Teflon grease) works well, and it has virtually no interaction with anything.
Note that the copper is coated to keep it shiny. I’m not sure what the coating is, but people will likely want to know how to preserve it and how to easily remove it. Dale stripped one of his, but it sounds like it was a lot of effort.
I removed the coating pretty easily with metal polish. Now the copper in both lights looks more like that “penny” orange, and is pretty reflective. If people thought they were shiny now, just wait till you give them a nice polish. They look fantastic. The polish I used claimed that it left an “anti-tarnish” coating, so I’ll see how long it takes for the copper to oxidize. I’m skeptical of that claim though.
emarkd, theories proven are no longer theories, is this not correct? A bump is a bump, the X5 loose in the box can indeed bump the X6, but to get a deep knurling impression takes some pressure. If you were to try and duplicate the deep knurling diamond that is embedded in a lot of the cu components, you’d see it takes a fairly good blow to get it set that deep. Sure, in shipment sometimes they really throw things around, I’m not saying it couldn’t happen, but it’d be more random.
I have samples, and I have production units. I have these marks in virtually all my copper parts. Even on the end of the bezel, where it could not possibly have contacted the X6 while in the box.
the lights are awesome and i am very happy with them. I was very surprised of its weight.
But i am german and i like precision There are some little things that could have been made better at the machines. Take a look into the battery tube for example and perhaps you can see it is bored off center. I already heard that from A6 owners. But that is nothing that could reduce my love for both lights.
Picked my SS/Cu box-sets today and I have to say when the clerk handed me the packages, I thought I had ordered rocks or something…
After getting home and opening the packages, OH MY GOD!
Some serious chuncks of metal there!
Since all the complaints here about the condition of lights received, I decided I will inspect them really-really carefully and here are my results:
Set 102/400 1A
-lights were a bit out of place, when opened
-2 corners of the box slightly dented, small piece of lacquer missing
-X5, very minor dents and couple tiny scratches, otherwise perfect
-X6, some “extra” knurling on the shiny stainless part between copper and bezel-knurling, otherwise in perfect condition
Set 210/400 3B
-lights were as supposed to when opened
-1 lower corner of the box slightly dented, otherwise perfect
-X5, in perfect condition, not really even a scratch!
-X6, 2 very minor dents on the copper part, otherwise perfect
So after a much-much more picky inspection than usual, I have to say I am MORE than HAPPY with the sets I received. Especially considering the price, they are simply AMAZINGPIECES!
For those still waiting for their lights, be patient, it is worth it!
And for those not so fortunate ones, I hope you get the issues you have sorted in a way all can live with…
And once more for all parties making this GB happen, THANKYOU! YOUREALLYDID IT!
Ok I got mine after having a fight and a claim at DHL. These babies made it thru China to Budapest in a day and I had to wait another three to get them from inland, what kind of service are they providing here, jesus… Anyways, Nr 55 matching SNs with box. Packaging was ok but due to the softness of the box material it was still not enogh, my box was damaged on two sides and the coating came off also in 1 or 2 mm next to the engraving. But who cares, let’s see inside. The foam inside is cheap and ugly, protects nothing instead it covers the lights with black dust. Ugly.
Flashlights were sitting in their places, no dancing no damage here. Both lights were damn dirty, it took me half an hour to clean the oily stuff but man, I am in love. UI, well only superlatives, easy and intuitive, could not ask for better. Very nice lights, especially love the bicolor X6. The CU part of it or at least the dip has some micro scratches, the SS part is flawless. Real beauty. But the LED is not centered, actually is about 0.5 mm off where is should sit, I am pretty upset as it also affects the beam pattern. Tried to adjust the star but it’s the LED actually that is mounted this way onto the mcpcb, so it’s a shame on Manker.
X5, nice little light indeed, comfortable to hold, good beam, at least this one has perfect centering, some marks on the cap and bezel that are minor. With a 0.001 usd nylon bag BG could have saved some of these 100 USD babies…
As you see mixed feelings, especially because of the off center LED, but overall a nice idea mixed with huge amount of work and stress for the organizers that I respect from the bottom of my heart and huge amounts of thanks to all who participated and made it reality. I think it’s a job well done taking into consideration this is not something regular production where you can improve processes over time but a one shot and this shot really hit me
Have to agree with emarkd on this. Pre assembly dings would more likely be randomly distributed rather than lining up on one side at only the points of contact.
—
Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?
We (I) will see what we can do after CNY. That may have been Neal or an assistant …. not sure. This much I do know… Even though your knurling is fowled up they have been buried with the BS stuff and that is going to play a part in anything from here on…if anything from here on. Just because things are not being posted do not believe for a minute that people are not making attempts to get refunds, discounts etc etc and that is going to make it harder for the few that have issues.
Oh man. I hope I didn’t contribute to that noise.
I notified Neal about the dings on my X5 just to bring this info to his attention so maybe it could be something that’s prevented in future GB’s, but I am not bothered by the dings (not one bit). It’s a very minor thing.
I most definitely was not trying to get compensation at all.
I did request an o-ring for the reflector/lens of the X5, since mine was missing it.
Actually, if anyone has the diameter or size of it and where I could get one, I could just get it myself.
bugsy36 wrote:
There are not enough SS or Cu lights to be feasible to do a run of short tubes….. The minimum order would be too many.
Easy solution! Make another run of SS sets! I know I’d pick up a couple in a heartbeat LOL
If you are referring to complete SS/Cu sets....we have to wait until after CNY. While you (Jes) and many others notified Neal for FYI purposes, many did not approach just for FYI purposes.
I will not repeat what the ramifications of being too picky or too petty. We just have to wait and see.
Edit: The FYI's are constructive...demands for deep discounts, free lights, etc. are not.
—
It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most
Ευκαιρία λέει πιάσε με από το μέτωπο γιατί μόλις έχω περάσει δεν θα με πιάσειs
Got the Cu/SS (3Ctint) set in, and man, they are way too heavy LOL!
Despite the great output, I'm going to make a quad XP-L HI from the X5 sometime to get the lumen/weight ratio to an acceptable level
I measured the X5 on the latest dark purple Efest 14500 at 1180 djozz-lumen at 30 seconds, no spring bypasses yet
Both lights arrived in their cardboard boxes in fine condition, just the X6 emitter is off-center, the beam is still ok, the big XP-L die is quite forgiving.
(led projected on the wall with a quality projection lens)
The numbers are 332 for the X6, and 274 for the X5. I'm fine with these mixed numbers but I'm ok with swapping battery tubes with someone.
Thanks a million team for the epic group buy, I enjoyed the process as much as I'm enjoying these lights right now
(now wait for the aluminium set, less pretty but way more useful! )
I’m fine with these mixed numbers but I’m ok with swapping battery tubes with someone.
It isn’t necessary to ship the whole flashlight. We could just ship the smaller tube, to keep mailing costs down.
If someone could tell me how much the X5’s tube weighs, I could come up with an estimate for the shipping cost. Otherwise, we could just assume a small flat rate Priority Mail box would cost $6.80.
Not sure what Banggood and Team Kronos had in mind, whether they planned on collecting/redistributing the flashlights through one central point (in which case, maybe Banggood’s contract price with a third party shipper might be cheapest) or whether they planned on having members ship the items directly to other members (in which case, USPS would be the cheapest).
—
Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.
I know I’m late, but can you please put me on the backup list for the SS/Cu set in NW?
If only in CW avilable I would take this as well.
Regards FrankFlash
Actually, because blue leds are chosen for the lighted tailcap, you need well over 2V to get them lighted at all (and thus draw current). I do not know at which exact voltage, but my guess is that with the battery at around 2.5V the leds will not light anymore and further battery drains stops. Perhaps someone can check?, I do not have the lights in yet.
I checked just now, and it looks like it stays at least slightly lit until about 2.2V or 2.3V. The response curve is basically the same as the blue line in this graph:
I was lucky to buy 4 of them at nkon.nl 2 months ago, just before they went out of stock.
Got an offer on 50 Purple Efest 14500…maybe I take it, and sell what I don’t need on ebay. But I have never sold anything there before, so I don’t know the shipping fee to other EU countries.
You need to figure:
- PayPal fee (roughly 3%)
- eBay fee (10%)*
- shipping costs (tracking? insurance?)
- advertising cost (usually free, unless you specify options)
- international currency conversion (3% if PayPal is doing the conversion)
* _ eBay’s fee is based on 10% of the purchase price including shipping costs.
These costs quickly add up. You need to figure these costs in establishing your sales price.
You need to figure on the risk that your product will not sell.
You also need to figure the risk of dissatisfied customer.
—
Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.
I was lucky to buy 4 of them at nkon.nl 2 months ago, just before they went out of stock.
Got an offer on 50 Purple Efest 14500...maybe I take it, and sell what I don't need on ebay. But I have never sold anything there before, so I don't know the shipping fee to other EU countries.
The light purple ones (lila) are still for sale, but if those are the newest darker purple ones I think you can make a lot of people happy
You’ll probably be able to sell them here on the Want To Sell discussion area. You can save the 10% ebay fee and the 3% basic Paypal fee (by having members pay for the item as a gift). I think you still pay the 3% currency conversion under Paypal, though.
—
Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.
Mine also the same date.
Will the led in the tailcap keep draining the battery even if the light itself has shut off due to low voltage? Just drained a 14500 and when I clicked the button, the led at the button switched on.
Yes, the tailcap led doesn’t run through the mcu like the main emitter does, so there’s no low voltage protection for the tailcap led (except its own Vf I suppose, but that probably won’t do much to help you). It would take months for the tailcap led by itself to drain a battery to dangerous levels, but an already depleted cell shouldn’t be left in these lights.
Good to know. The depleted cell showed 2.81V on my DMM, so there isn't much room left.
Actually, because blue leds are chosen for the lighted tailcap, you need well over 2V to get them lighted at all (and thus draw current). I do not know at which exact voltage, but my guess is that with the battery at around 2.5V the leds will not light anymore and further battery drains stops. Perhaps someone can check?, I do not have the lights in yet.
link to djozz tests
Have the lights here now. The damages are only slightly visible. The photos looked much worse than it looks in real life. There was much black “dirt” from the inside of the box on the lights. Could clean most of it easily. The X6 is in perfect condition. The X5 has some minor scratches on the bezel. I can live with that.
Thanks to the Team!
I think most of the photos we’ve seen of damage would be the same story in real life. Mine isn’t perfect either if I really look for it, but its not a problem for me because the marks are so minor. Mine had black “dirt” too, which comes from the foam in the box being eroded by the lights shifting and bouncing around during shipping. So do most of the tiny marks, I bet. I’m sure the marks on my X5 tailcap came from striking the knurling on the X6 during shipping. Both of those issues, the eroded foam and the minor marks, could be solved by better packaging. The first reports of damage were quickly blamed on Manker, and some of the marks could be from their handling during production, but I’d bet that easily 90% of the marks on my lights came from shipping. We could probably test that theory. I wonder how many of the unboxed sets, SN between 251-400, have the same marked up X5 tailcaps some of the rest of us are reporting?
I hope the team leaders don’t take this post as a complaint. It isn’t meant that way and anybody can read back through my comments of the past few days and see me defending these lights and this team over and over. So I’m not trying to stir something up, but I do think that Banggood could learn a bit about properly protecting and handling items like this and I hope we can help them do it. For instance, they’ve obviously got tons of that white foam sheeting there they use for wrapping boxes. Just a thought, but one piece inside the box could have probably saved a lot of minor issues. This set of lights is awesome and I’ve got no real complaints, but maybe the next lights they sell me can be even more awesome.
I removed the coating pretty easily with metal polish. Now the copper in both lights looks more like that “penny” orange, and is pretty reflective. If people thought they were shiny now, just wait till you give them a nice polish. They look fantastic. The polish I used claimed that it left an “anti-tarnish” coating, so I’ll see how long it takes for the copper to oxidize. I’m skeptical of that claim though.
Nitenumen TA02 Review
Starrylight DXM Review
Eagle Eye X5R Review
ThorFire S50 Review
Eagle Eye X5 Review
emarkd, theories proven are no longer theories, is this not correct? A bump is a bump, the X5 loose in the box can indeed bump the X6, but to get a deep knurling impression takes some pressure. If you were to try and duplicate the deep knurling diamond that is embedded in a lot of the cu components, you’d see it takes a fairly good blow to get it set that deep. Sure, in shipment sometimes they really throw things around, I’m not saying it couldn’t happen, but it’d be more random.
I have samples, and I have production units. I have these marks in virtually all my copper parts. Even on the end of the bezel, where it could not possibly have contacted the X6 while in the box.
Hi,
the lights are awesome and i am very happy with them. I was very surprised of its weight.
But i am german and i like precision
There are some little things that could have been made better at the machines. Take a look into the battery tube for example and perhaps you can see it is bored off center. I already heard that from A6 owners. But that is nothing that could reduce my love for both lights.
Regards
Kenjii
Picked my SS/Cu box-sets today and I have to say when the clerk handed me the packages, I thought I had ordered rocks or something…
After getting home and opening the packages, OH MY GOD!
Some serious chuncks of metal there!
Since all the complaints here about the condition of lights received, I decided I will inspect them really-really carefully and here are my results:
Set 102/400 1A
-lights were a bit out of place, when opened
-2 corners of the box slightly dented, small piece of lacquer missing
-X5, very minor dents and couple tiny scratches, otherwise perfect
-X6, some “extra” knurling on the shiny stainless part between copper and bezel-knurling, otherwise in perfect condition
Set 210/400 3B
-lights were as supposed to when opened
-1 lower corner of the box slightly dented, otherwise perfect
-X5, in perfect condition, not really even a scratch!
-X6, 2 very minor dents on the copper part, otherwise perfect
So after a much-much more picky inspection than usual, I have to say I am MORE than HAPPY with the sets I received. Especially considering the price, they are simply AMAZING PIECES!
For those still waiting for their lights, be patient, it is worth it!
And for those not so fortunate ones, I hope you get the issues you have sorted in a way all can live with…
And once more for all parties making this GB happen, THANK YOU! YOU REALLY DID IT!
My Lights
My Batteries
Ok I got mine after having a fight and a claim at DHL. These babies made it thru China to Budapest in a day and I had to wait another three to get them from inland, what kind of service are they providing here, jesus… Anyways, Nr 55 matching SNs with box. Packaging was ok but due to the softness of the box material it was still not enogh, my box was damaged on two sides and the coating came off also in 1 or 2 mm next to the engraving. But who cares, let’s see inside. The foam inside is cheap and ugly, protects nothing instead it covers the lights with black dust. Ugly.
Flashlights were sitting in their places, no dancing no damage here. Both lights were damn dirty, it took me half an hour to clean the oily stuff but man, I am in love. UI, well only superlatives, easy and intuitive, could not ask for better. Very nice lights, especially love the bicolor X6. The CU part of it or at least the dip has some micro scratches, the SS part is flawless. Real beauty. But the LED is not centered, actually is about 0.5 mm off where is should sit, I am pretty upset as it also affects the beam pattern. Tried to adjust the star but it’s the LED actually that is mounted this way onto the mcpcb, so it’s a shame on Manker.
X5, nice little light indeed, comfortable to hold, good beam, at least this one has perfect centering, some marks on the cap and bezel that are minor. With a 0.001 usd nylon bag BG could have saved some of these 100 USD babies…
As you see mixed feelings, especially because of the off center LED, but overall a nice idea mixed with huge amount of work and stress for the organizers that I respect from the bottom of my heart and huge amounts of thanks to all who participated and made it reality. I think it’s a job well done taking into consideration this is not something regular production where you can improve processes over time but a one shot and this shot really hit me
The EE A6 18350 tube fits the X6! Is there any way for an 18350 tube to be done?
Words can be broken,
so can bones.
Have to agree with emarkd on this. Pre assembly dings would more likely be randomly distributed rather than lining up on one side at only the points of contact.
Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?
Scott
There are not enough SS or Cu lights to be feasible to do a run of short tubes..... The minimum order would be too many.
It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most
Ευκαιρία λέει πιάσε με από το μέτωπο γιατί μόλις έχω περάσει δεν θα με πιάσειs
Oh man. I hope I didn’t contribute to that noise.
I notified Neal about the dings on my X5 just to bring this info to his attention so maybe it could be something that’s prevented in future GB’s, but I am not bothered by the dings (not one bit). It’s a very minor thing.
I most definitely was not trying to get compensation at all.
I did request an o-ring for the reflector/lens of the X5, since mine was missing it.
Actually, if anyone has the diameter or size of it and where I could get one, I could just get it myself.
Easy solution! Make another run of SS sets! I know I’d pick up a couple in a heartbeat LOL
Nitenumen TA02 Review
Starrylight DXM Review
Eagle Eye X5R Review
ThorFire S50 Review
Eagle Eye X5 Review
If you are referring to complete SS/Cu sets....we have to wait until after CNY. While you (Jes) and many others notified Neal for FYI purposes, many did not approach just for FYI purposes.
I will not repeat what the ramifications of being too picky or too petty. We just have to wait and see.
Edit: The FYI's are constructive...demands for deep discounts, free lights, etc. are not.
It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most
Ευκαιρία λέει πιάσε με από το μέτωπο γιατί μόλις έχω περάσει δεν θα με πιάσειs
I copied your note into the What Legoes With What? thread
Received mine today. They are amazing and very heavy (CU/SS) only issue is the emitter is very off centre on the X5 but nothing I can’t fix.
Thankyou all for the effort you put in to make this a reality.
Pastebin &nbs
I just received mine ss/cu. Singapore air rewrapped and all great. Thanks again to everyone!!
Got the Cu/SS (3Ctint) set in, and man, they are way too heavy LOL!
Despite the great output, I'm going to make a quad XP-L HI from the X5 sometime to get the lumen/weight ratio to an acceptable level
I measured the X5 on the latest dark purple Efest 14500 at 1180 djozz-lumen at 30 seconds, no spring bypasses yet
Both lights arrived in their cardboard boxes in fine condition, just the X6 emitter is off-center, the beam is still ok, the big XP-L die is quite forgiving.
(led projected on the wall with a quality projection lens)
The numbers are 332 for the X6, and 274 for the X5. I'm fine with these mixed numbers but I'm ok with swapping battery tubes with someone.
Thanks a million team for the epic group buy, I enjoyed the process as much as I'm enjoying these lights right now
(now wait for the aluminium set, less pretty but way more useful! )
link to djozz tests
It isn’t necessary to ship the whole flashlight. We could just ship the smaller tube, to keep mailing costs down.
If someone could tell me how much the X5’s tube weighs, I could come up with an estimate for the shipping cost. Otherwise, we could just assume a small flat rate Priority Mail box would cost $6.80.
Not sure what Banggood and Team Kronos had in mind, whether they planned on collecting/redistributing the flashlights through one central point (in which case, maybe Banggood’s contract price with a third party shipper might be cheapest) or whether they planned on having members ship the items directly to other members (in which case, USPS would be the cheapest).
Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.I know I’m late, but can you please put me on the backup list for the SS/Cu set in NW?
If only in CW avilable I would take this as well.
Regards FrankFlash
I was lucky to buy 4 of them at nkon.nl 2 months ago, just before they went out of stock.
link to djozz tests
I checked just now, and it looks like it stays at least slightly lit until about 2.2V or 2.3V. The response curve is basically the same as the blue line in this graph:
It looks like mine may be arriving today (east coast U.S.)!!
Got an offer on 50 Purple Efest 14500…maybe I take it, and sell what I don’t need on ebay. But I have never sold anything there before, so I don’t know the shipping fee to other EU countries.
Kenneth Myhre
You need to figure:
* _ eBay’s fee is based on 10% of the purchase price including shipping costs.- PayPal fee (roughly 3%)
- eBay fee (10%)*
- shipping costs (tracking? insurance?)
- advertising cost (usually free, unless you specify options)
- international currency conversion (3% if PayPal is doing the conversion)
These costs quickly add up. You need to figure these costs in establishing your sales price.
You need to figure on the risk that your product will not sell.
You also need to figure the risk of dissatisfied customer.
Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.The light purple ones (lila) are still for sale, but if those are the newest darker purple ones I think you can make a lot of people happy
link to djozz tests
You’ll probably be able to sell them here on the Want To Sell discussion area. You can save the 10% ebay fee and the 3% basic Paypal fee (by having members pay for the item as a gift). I think you still pay the 3% currency conversion under Paypal, though.
Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.Pages