Modded ( DD Fet+1 and XPG2 S2 2B/ XPL V6 1D) Convoy C8 vs Olight M2X Javelot ( the newest XPL HI revision) Updated

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Mitko
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Modded ( DD Fet+1 and XPG2 S2 2B/ XPL V6 1D) Convoy C8 vs Olight M2X Javelot ( the newest XPL HI revision) Updated

I builded today yet another C8 for a fella hunter today and decided to compare it with an Olight M2X Javelot ( the newest XPL HI revision)
The C8- Used emitter is Fasttech one XPG2 S2 2B( hot dedomed ofc) on Noctigon, the driver is DD FET +1 × 7138 – i used IOS 18 AWG wires, the spring is the default one that came with the host bridged with a 22awg wire, same as the tail spring.
The glass was swapped with the Fasttech AR 41.5mm one
The gasket used is the one that came with the host- i sanded it like 0.5mm and perfectly centered it( the hardest part of all the work)- the gasket is fixed on the PCB with a glue , i used some sillicone grease on its top to prevent the reflector to twist/disorient it
Its the new COnvoy C8 btw, not the old pill one

Convoy:


Olight M2x Javelot

Lux/candelas measured at 3.35 meters( thats the max i can affort in my home), max current and the hotspot plus the emitter tint:

Convoy results : lux, max amp, hotspot and the tint:


Olight results: lux, hotspot and the tint:

max amps are 3.4 for the M2x, i forgot to take a pic:/

Both times a Samsung 25r battery was used

So….what do we have:
15770 lux/176978 cds for the Convoy C8 vs 15500lux/173948 for the M2X

That particulat C8 came out with a perfect hotspot too- better that the M2x one
The S2 2B tint is also better, most ppl here will like it, and the max amps i wont comment, its the best XPG2 at this moment on the market

This is yet another proof how good Convoy C8, the BLF DD driver and that particluar emitters are: for 1/3( 1/6) of the M2x price( after its HUGE discount atm) you can have smaller, lighter, ways more pocketable and ofc ways ways more BLF style thrower/hunting flashlight and thas a better tintand a better hotspot( if you are patient ofc Wink )

Edited by: Mitko on 11/06/2015 - 08:26
Wrathbringer27
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How much did he buy off you? Wink
Is the light small or are your hands big?

Words can be broken,
so can bones.

DEL
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What glue are you using?

I was thinking silicone sealer or two part epoxy, something that can both take heat and stick reliably to the gasket.
But in the end I managed without glue and by screwing the bezel down carefully.
Would be nice to find proper gaskets for the SMO reflectors.

XP-L 3D:

Mitko
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Wrathbringer27 wrote:
How much did he buy off you? Wink Is the light small or are your hands big?

Well its a friend, we do hunt together, plus he is making bullets for me…free ofc, its a shame to ask a friend for 23$ Wink

Quote:
What glue are you using?

A french brand called Bison, its flexible and one of the most reliable over here, and it aint an isntant one, thus you can fine tune the gasket

About the gasket issue….well, the default COnvoy C8 ones are nearly perfect when managed properly, i dont find any reason to buy aditional ones – look at the hotspot, it speaks for itself, when you are carefull and patient it take slike 5 mins to fix it like it should be fixed

DanielM
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Wow Mitko, perfect hotspot with perfect tint, much better than the Olight, great job. Those poor delicious animals though…

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Just put one of these in my 818, the tint is great! Much better than the S42B and S2OD!!!! Or any other XP-G2 I have tried so far! Now it’s time to tune it in, will start with the reflector on the board and work my way up!

KB1428 “Live Life WOT

FlashPilot
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Those are some great budget friendly results. I never would have believed the XPG2 S2 2B dedomed tint could be so nice. Thanks again for linking me to this thread.

Tom E
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Amaz'n, truly amaz'n! Wish I could dupe the results. I rarely use 18 AWG wires - might have to give it a go, but I'm sure the wires aren't the only reason. I've tried hot de-domes but with not so good results. Maybe have to re-visit this, but been too bizy on firmware as of late.

FlashPilot
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I dedome hot, right after reflowing the emitter to the MCPCB and rarely screw up an XML2. But I wind up ruining about 1/3rd of the XPG2 when I dedome hot. A corner of the phosphor sometimes lifts off with the dome, so I probably need to maintain more heat. Any tips?

will manners
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177kcd! Shocked Those are some serious results Wink

twinclouds
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I thought XPG2 can (only) have a maximum forward current up to 1.5A. Did I misunderstood or missed anything?

Twinclouds

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twinclouds wrote:
I thought XPG2 can (only) have a maximum forward current up to 1.5A. Did I misunderstood or missed anything?

Maybe you heard that for XP-E2? But XP-E2's can go up to ~2.4A anyway. XP-G2's can go much higher. djozz tested them on a bench PS - think over 6A. I can onlyget them to bout 3.5-4.5A on a cell, but apparently certain bins/batches can go higher.

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No I was talking about XP-G2 as shown in the Cree data sheet. Maybe there’s another type of XP-G2?

Tom E wrote:

twinclouds wrote:
I thought XPG2 can (only) have a maximum forward current up to 1.5A. Did I misunderstood or missed anything?

Maybe you heard that for XP-E2? But XP-E2’s can go up to ~2.4A anyway. XP-G2’s can go much higher. djozz tested them on a bench PS – think over 6A. I can onlyget them to bout 3.5-4.5A on a cell, but apparently certain bins/batches can go higher.

Twinclouds

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twinclouds wrote:
No I was talking about XP-G2 as shown in the Cree data sheet. Maybe there’s another type of XP-G2?
Tom E wrote:

twinclouds wrote:
I thought XPG2 can (only) have a maximum forward current up to 1.5A. Did I misunderstood or missed anything?

Maybe you heard that for XP-E2? But XP-E2’s can go up to ~2.4A anyway. XP-G2’s can go much higher. djozz tested them on a bench PS – think over 6A. I can onlyget them to bout 3.5-4.5A on a cell, but apparently certain bins/batches can go higher.

It’s normal here to run over data sheet max current on Cree LED’s here, look around there are charts of output vs current some LED’s run well at double the spec.

twinclouds
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O.K. But we are still talking about the same XP-G2, right?

Joat wrote:

It’s normal here to run over data sheet max current on Cree LED’s here, look around there are charts of output vs current some LED’s run well at double the spec.[/quote]

Twinclouds

Mitko
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FlashPilot wrote:
I dedome hot, right after reflowing the emitter to the MCPCB and rarely screw up an XML2. But I wind up ruining about 1/3rd of the XPG2 when I dedome hot. A corner of the phosphor sometimes lifts off with the dome, so I probably need to maintain more heat. Any tips?

Well…. i think we use quite different hot dedome methods here

By hot dedome i ment i use a hot battery-electrical dedome method- i usualy use a realatiely bad Great Empire 6800mah battery( that is actualy 900mah): this way even fully charged it gives max 2.5 amps when direct connected to the emitter….i have to make a video though….most of times the dedome is nearly perfect btw

FlashPilot
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Mitko wrote:
FlashPilot wrote:
I dedome hot, right after reflowing the emitter to the MCPCB and rarely screw up an XML2. But I wind up ruining about 1/3rd of the XPG2 when I dedome hot. A corner of the phosphor sometimes lifts off with the dome, so I probably need to maintain more heat. Any tips?

Well…. i think we use quite different hot dedome methods here

By hot dedome i ment i use a hot battery-electrical dedome method- i usualy use a realatiely bad Great Empire 6800mah battery( that is actualy 900mah): this way even fully charged it gives max 2.5 amps when direct connected to the emitter….i have to make a video though….most of times the dedome is nearly perfect btw

Alright, so you use a crappy low amp cell to power the emitter while the MCPCB is hanging in free air, wait till it heats up and pluck the dome off while the emitter is still illuminated? If so, do you need welding goggles to see what you’re doing while you lift the dome?

Mitko
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Something like that, its only i power the emitter while its on the table, but unter its PCB i use a paper to issulate the heat , then i power the emitter in series, 4-5 seconds working, 1 second off, repeating this 4-5-6 times( i use to that like i drink water, i damaged many till i found the way to do it like i should)…meanwhile i touch gently the dome to see if its melted, after the 10th try one will know when the exact moment to dedome is, the dome becomes hot and soft: then i dedome the emitter with 2 cuts ( the dot in the upper left corner is the starting point):

1. One fast cut but only to the emitters core from the side that is pointed on the picture:

2. A final complete cut , from the site pointed on the picture:

If its done under 10 seconds usualy results are great

If the emitter is on an alu PCB it heats up 2-3 times faster, so series in that case should be 2 seconds work, 1 off

Every VERY crappy battery will do the job, there are some Ultrafire batteries that give 3-4 amps – those aint good, they heat up pretty fast, the main idea here is to maintain a current 2.5-3amps tops…it can be done with a led driver ofc

FlashPilot
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So you are slicing the dome before lifting, creating 2 cuts 90 degrees apart (and away from the bond wires to protect them). Then lifting from the corner where you cut the dome. Thanks Mitko! If this is the method, I can manage the heat pretty well just after reflow onto the DTP MCPCB.

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Does hot dedome removes silicone under bond wires?
I use gasoline dedome method but I am using medical grade gasoline, much purer than car gasoline and doesnt leave any smell but it needs at least 24h of soaking. Anyway it is very very hard to remove particles of silicone dome under the bond wires…

 

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Great work Mitko, 176 kcd for a C8 is very very good. Was the reflector the stock reflector that came with the C8?

Mitko
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Sirius9 wrote:
Does hot dedome removes silicone under bond wires? I use gasoline dedome method but I am using medical grade gasoline, much purer than car gasoline and doesnt leave any smell but it needs at least 24h of soaking. Anyway it is very very hard to remove particles of silicone dome under the bond wires…

Usualy it doesnt, but 25-30% of times it does, the only sillicone that is left is in that place…but i actualy prefer that for the wires to be protected at some level

Mitko
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djozz wrote:

Great work Mitko, 176 kcd for a C8 is very very good. Was the reflector the stock reflector that came with the C8?

Yes djozz, only the glass is an AR one( it brings aditional 10-12% in the overal candelas, tested it- tails spring bypass also brings like 8-10%)
Those Ft AR glasses have issues – from 5 ordered 2 have several non AR-ed dots, i already created a ticket about that
The funny part is that that particular reflector wasnt perfect, it wasnt dusty but it has some muddy dots here and there- usualy Convoy reflectors are fine

The new host has changes btw, i usualy order 4-5-6 monthly, lately they use thicker glass and kinda longer reflector, compared from the first samples that i got months ago

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twinclouds wrote:
O.K. But we are still talking about the same XP-G2, right?
Joat wrote:
It's normal here to run over data sheet max current on Cree LED's here, look around there are charts of output vs current some LED's run well at double the spec.
[/quote]

There is only one XP-G2. I don't understand... I have no clue where you saw 1.5A - as was said, we never restrict our amps based on CREE's specs. Please try to find your reference - it doesn't make any sense. We've been using XP-G2's well over 2A since they were released - no problems.

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Mitko try the Intl Outdoor C8 AR glass, it’s way better than the FT ones. Almost Nitecore quality to my eyes.

Old-Lumens wrote:
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I have a Convoy C8, original one, with a de-domed XP-G2 I built maybe 2+ years ago - can't find my notes on it, probably a 7135 stacked driver, at the time, pre-FET period, somewhere after the Jurassic age Smile, but can't find my notes on it. THinking it did bout 120 kcd.

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FWIW, when taking an amperage measurement at the tail it’s important to have proper polarity. One might think the numbers would be the same either way, but I haven’t found that to be the case. The 5.50 that’s showing also has a negative mark to the left, meaning the contacts are reversed. Given proper DMM probe placement that one most likely won’t be 5.5A. You might check it out and see if that’s true in your set-up as well.

I hot de-dome in the light, at high amps, usually within 30 seconds. We all develop a style that works for us, interesting how many different ways there are to do the same thing…

twinclouds
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I have already give the link to the spec sheet in my previous post. I am listing it here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCU...NKYQ&cad=rja) again. It clearly says maximum current is 1.5A. Please let me know what I have missed.

Tom E wrote:

twinclouds wrote:
O.K. But we are still talking about the same XP-G2, right?
Joat wrote:
It’s normal here to run over data sheet max current on Cree LED’s here, look around there are charts of output vs current some LED’s run well at double the spec.

There is only one XP-G2. I don’t understand… I have no clue where you saw 1.5A – as was said, we never restrict our amps based on CREE’s specs. Please try to find your reference – it doesn’t make any sense. We’ve been using XP-G2’s well over 2A since they were released – no problems.

[/quote]

Twinclouds

Tom E
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Ok - you didn't miss anything. We happily ignore, and throw shame on the CREE max amp specs - it's what we do, it's what makes us happy SmileCool. We've been totally ignoring them for so long, guess I just assume that anyone here on BLF knows what we modders do.

Yes, CREE states max amps - of course they do. We, on the other hand, do not take that as gospel, so we test on our own what the little LED diode can really handle. So, we establish our own maximums., and they are all much higher than CREE's maximums. djozz has been the unofficial/official best BLF source of the test data. Does it shorten the LED's expected lifetime and MTBF specs? Sure, of course it does, but by how much? Not really too sure. There's been some testing done by Mitko on that, but not on all LED models. Do we really care? No, not really. If it last for 3 years under common usage for a flashlight - that's great! It would be obsolete in 3 years anyway. ANother contributing factor is we use high quality, expensive copper MCPCB's that have a Direct Thermal Path (DTP) that keeps the LED cool. CREE's max specs are probably based on a poorer mount and housing environment that what we build.

Is CREE correct on their stated maximums? Of course they are - for their own concerns which is mostly for the large commercial use of their products, like in street lights, home lighting systems, etc. Regular failures in the field under stress would be a disaster for them.

Hope this explanation helps....

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You (TomE) just reminded mi that I need to order more XP noctigon mcpcbs :bigsmile:

 

Mitko
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Sirius9 wrote:
You (TomE) just reminded mi that I need to order more XP noctigon mcpcbs :bigsmile:

And some of those S2 2b m8 Smile I stacked nice ammount of those….unfortunately FT shipping lately is a nightmare

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