Overblown Concerns Over Li-ion Batteries Stored in Cars

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1dash1
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Hank,

I started this thread asking for people’s opinions on the subject.

I was particularly interested in people sharing any experiences that they may have encountered or otherwise knew of.

I think anyone that has read this thread from start to finish has gained a better appreciation of the range of opinions about the risks.

Thank you!

Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.

Lick
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/612389/MH370-lithium-mobile-phone-ba...

I’m going to stay away from them the same reason I stay away from ultrafires. However, such batteries are used in Tesla, and they’ve proven to be remarkable vehicles without a disclaimer for ‘do not drive or park in hot places’.

SawMaster
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What I notice most so far is that most people are solid with their opinions and have a basis for them which they believe is adequate to justify their actions. What I next notice is a lack of actual evidence of a case of major damage to a car which could be reasonably be believed to have been caused by a LIon and heat. Nothing even close to that. There’s too much of this happening right now for there to not be one reasonably believable case discovered by now.

If this were a legal case in the US under trial, you’d have to prove the damage beyond a reasonable doubt to win- a standard which most of us believe is good and fair. The possibility of damage isn’t enough to carry that case or a jury hearing it. Show your proof if you have it, and don’t argue that there is none on either side if you can’t, because with all the LIon power tools my career-cohorts and I carry there would surely have been at least a few fires by now, yet I’ve heard of none. With so many roughnecks and unenlightened hooligans doing this with apparent safety, then you cannot successfully argue that it is unsafe for us more careful ones without some proof which has at least equal validity in the eyes of a reasonable person. It is not that there is no danger- only a fool would posit that. It is not where the line between safe and unsafe is or how close you’re getting to it. It is certainly not going to apply to those dealing with extremes of heat or poorly made cells. It is only about whether this is safe for most of us. Which I think it is but I also think it’s getting close to that line where safety is lost. How close I can’t say- . Some of us are comfortable here and some are not, that’s all.

I don’t feel lucky, but I do feel safe and if I’m not then please educate me with proof and not preaching so that I can actually be as relatively safe as I feel I am now.

Phil

Lick
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Samsung phones with Li-Ion have exploded, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2521284/Samsung-attempts-...

But I have not seen any cases in which one explodes in a flashlight, causing more damage, and destroying a car or killing a person. I also believe the issue is overblown, but I wouldn’t want to store flashlights in a state that they can be damaged because I am too lazy to take it out of a hot car. I don’t think it will hurt me, but it will damage the cell and perhaps make the flashlight unusable, while the items you describe are modular, and the cells are located outside the actual device.

Maybe a lot of people are mistaking caring for their items as worrying their own safety. I don’t think it will hurt me, but it will hurt the cell.

1dash1
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Sawmaster:

FYI, a civil case would be decided by a preponderence of evidence.

Notwithstanding that technicality, your other points are well taken. Beer

Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.

1dash1
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Lick wrote:
Samsung phones with Li-Ion have exploded, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2521284/Samsung-attempts-...
Further on down the article:

“In a separate incident, an Irish Samsung S3 owner claimed his handset burst into flames as he was driving his car. However, it was later discovered, following tests by the Fire Investigations UK (FIUK) team, that the phone had been previously placed in the microwave to remove water damage and this may have been the cause of the fire.”

OMG, can you imagine the snap-crackle-and-pop that was going on while the phone was being microwaved? Big Smile Smile Sad :_( :Sp

. . . . .

Okay, let’s add that to our safety guidelines: When drying out any Li-ion cells, do NOT microwave them.

Evil

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Lick
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You’re ignoring 4 different cases in which batteries have exploded without any warning.

1dash1
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Do you really want me to go over the details of the other cases and why they don’t apply to this discussion?

Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.

Lick
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Yes. Like I said a lot of people are likely mistaking caring for their items as worrying their own safety. I don’t think they’re dangerous, but people like to take care of their products.

1dash1
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People can read your article and make up their own minds.

Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.

Lick
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So you can’t really explain why they don’t apply?

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I’m not out to convince anyone about the details. 0:)

Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.

Lick
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Then I have no idea why you said this:

1dash1 wrote:
Do you really want me to go over the details of the other cases and why they don’t apply to this discussion?

unless you just wanted to nitpick one poor case, and then retract it when you realized that it does apply, and degrading batteries are indeed dangerous.

1dash1
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Alright, if you really must know why the other instances do not apply to this discussion:

1. None of them involved being in a car.

2. None of them involved overheating conditions (similar to being in a hot car).

The subject isn’t about the risk of any li-ion hazards anywhere at anytime, it’s about storing li-ion cells (presumably in flashlights) in cars.

Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.

Boaz
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you are more likely to be killed by a dead fish dropped by a seagull in the Sahara Desert than by a lithium ion cell going bad.”

                 υμεις εστε το φως του κοσμου ου δυναται πολις κρυβηναι επανω ορους κειμενη

                            Dc-fix diffuser film  >…  http://budgetlightforum.com/node/42208

light-wolff
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Boaz wrote:
you are more likely to be killed by a dead fish dropped by a seagull in the Sahara Desert than by a lithium ion cell going bad.”
:bigsmile: This is a bold claim. Why do you believe that, and do you know of any evidence to support that? Wink
mongoose
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This guy was never seen again!

homer

light-wolff
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You mean the seagull dropped the fish and took the guy instead, leaving back the suitcase full of li-ion batteries?

B42
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light-wolff wrote:
You mean the seagull dropped the fish and took the guy instead, leaving back the suitcase full of li-ion batteries?

Well this is obviously wrong, everyone knows the seagull would steal the flashlights and lithium batteries so he could see flying at night.

robk
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My take on all this:

1. Many of us have questions regarding whether lithium batteries kept in a vehicle all year long might pose any kind of risk.

2. There seems to be little evidence proving that it would be unsafe, and the few anecdotal reports of problems seem to
involve untrained users and questionable equipment (vapers using XXXFire batteries and chargers, for example).

3. Airlines and perhaps other transport companies have begun to realize that for their circumstances it is well advised to put restrictions on transport of lithium cells. That gives us pause and makes us question.

4. No one that I know of has done proper research capable of putting this question completely to rest, and the variety of cells, differences in manufacturing, and differences in use and charging will always introduce too many variables to let us
definitively say that it is safe.

5. Having said all the above, most of us feel that good quality cells properly managed are probably fine, even in a vehicle, but if we still have lingering doubts we have to exercise our own judgement. I doubt that any one “expert” will be able to say with certainty where the line is that should not be crossed. Many, many shades of grey.

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Well said.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

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I would think that the Lithium Ion cell in all the portable GPS units stuck to the windshields of all the cars all over the world would have been exposed to the most heat. (direct sunlight). Haven’t heard of a rash of explosions. I know from experiance that these cells tend to not last as long, especially those in black GPS units and those in cars that have constant power to the cigarette lighter even when the ignition is off. Proof that a constant charge and elevated temperatures diminish the service life of these cells

battery
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Nothing for or against storing lithium ion batteries inside cars but for emergency usage lights stored inside said car, lithium AA just seem better suited for purpose. L91’s have 20 year shelf life at 21 degrees Celsius. Obviously lower when elevated to over 130 but every metric works in favor of primaries over rechargers in this situation.

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Datasheets for most Li-ion, Li-primary, NiMH and alkaline batteries all specify 60C or less for storage. Li-ion is not more sensitive to hot storage conditions than the others. Storing any battery in a hot car is detrimental to its performance, but none of them are likely to explode.

Ceilingbounce – flashlight testing and runtime graphs for Android | Zak Reviews – my flashlight reviews, with lots of runtime graphs

raccoon city
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1dash1 wrote:
Overblown Concerns Over Li-ion Batteries Stored in Cars

Anyone notice that overblown is a pun?   Big Smile

1dash1
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Smile Big Smile :bigsmile: Silly :bigsmile: Big Smile Smile Party Smile Big Smile :bigsmile: Silly :bigsmile: Big Smile Smile Party Smile Big Smile :bigsmile: Silly :bigsmile: Big Smile Smile Party

Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.

Itinifni
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I’d like to offer a simple review of my experience to this conversation.

First off, this is my personal experience and is not meant to be a recommendation in any way to anyone on the subject. I am in no way an authority, nor have I done any research on this issue.

I have spent the last 35 years in the automotive industry, the first 20 as a dealership master technician and the last 15 as a field engineer for the manufacturer.

One of my responsibilities in the later position has been to investigate, document and to the best of my ability try to determine the root cause of thermal events in our vehicles. I performed many of these investigations alone but others with engineers specifically trained in thermals, independent investigators and members of local fire departments.

While the root cause of this type of event cannot always be determined it can almost always be narrowed down to very few possibilities.

I have never found, nor have I ever even heard from anyone that they found the root cause to be a Lithium base battery’s thermal runaway. Bear in mind that my company has vehicles (hybrid and full electric) using both NiMH and Lithium based batteries. Not to mention many vehicles have aftermarket items containing Lithium batteries.

While concern over leaving Li-Ion batteries in a vehicle may be warranted there are mundane threats all around us. Using a cheap cell phone charger, allowing a coin to fall into a power port, a Bic lighter caught in a seat track. I have seen all three of these more than once.

Personally, I have had an iTP R01 in my glove box for over 3 years now (powered by Li-Ion) along with an L2P and just added a Nitecore HC30. I know I’m hurting the batteries with the heat but I’m not worried about safety. I should say though that I do not have Li-Ion lights in my wife’s or kid’s cars.

I did have a problem a few years ago with the GPS in my wife’s car. After a year or two in her vehicles I noticed the back cover was no longer sitting flush. When I took it apart I found the battery (Lithium Polymer I believe) had blistered. No venting, just swollen out.

Again, I’m not suggesting it’s safe to leave Li-Ion in a vehicle and to the OP’s point, I don’t think I’d leave a light with multiple cells in series in my car (I’m not comfortable compounding risks). I just know threats are all around, chances are the one you’re not aware of is more likely to get you.

Be AWARE!

I remember a time, when I searched for lights to fit my needs. Now I search for needs to fit my lights.

1dash1
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Good points, all. Smile

Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.

akhyar
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Thanks for sharing your experinced Itinifni

dchomak
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Itinifni, I just realized your name is Infiniti spelled backwards

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