The purpose of MAP and how it really helps us

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bugsy36
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Ya know....never EVER was this intended to start arguments or even give reasons to hurl personal insults. That shows nothing but a lack of civility and complete ignorance. Nobody stated that anybody "had" to agree but because someone does not follow your ideology does not make him or her and idiot as you guys all portray them (anybody) to be. I have never been afraid to state an opinion in a respectful manner, and I even have corrected/reversed myself when logical arguments are produced. The majority of this thread is nothing but emotion and not fact and logic even if the facts or logic do not benefit you.

  • DavidEF - My apologies that you got caught up this. Thank you for trying to at least understand, whether in agreement or not.
  • Bort - MAP is not price fixing as your own words so state. You also mention "our rights"...do not business have the right to choose also or are we living in a society where we will have to ask for permission to make purchases by getting on a government list. Also paying for CREE and getting Lb has nothing to do with MAP...that is fraud.
  • Muto - Freddy was eventually killed but capitalism cannot Wink
  • Wdkingery - The free market means that the consumer has a choice, as do the suppliers. All a business is responsible for is to provide us with what we agree to pay for and the consumer pay for what is provided.
  • Southland - We have proven time and time again that MAP can be avoided and often circumvented
  • SawMaster - Actually it is not about controlling any market as much as it is maintaining profitability of a distributing infrastructure to allow people to have more choices.
  • Hank - Whether you agree or not thank you for at least looking at this objectively
  • O.L - I cannot comment to your comments, I want to but I am torn and since I am NOT a dealer with NOTHING to gain I would rather just be surprised and disagree.
  • Jack Kellar - The subject of MAP is not price gouging if for nothing else you do not need to buy any flashlight other than what you want to pay for
  • RC - Tongue Out
  • Kuoh - Simply put, if a dealer cannot profit selling an item then that dealer will not stock that item and then since no dealers will purchase an item from a manufacturer then that manufacturer will cease to exist which in turn actually limits choices more and even raises prices because of less competition. If a manufacturer stated that a dealer can sell no other brand (and they used to) then that is limiting choices.
  • DanielM - Do you really have anything to say that has any substance, whether in agreement or not? You have added nothing but insults in the last several postings you made not in this thread but many threads.
  • B42 - The consumer chooses whether or not they feel something is worth paying for. If not then it does not sell and the market automatically corrects it or it ends up going away.

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

Ευκαιρία λέει πιάσε με από το μέτωπο γιατί μόλις έχω περάσει δεν θα με πιάσειs

raccoon city
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bugsy36 wrote:

Ya know....never EVER was this intended to start arguments or even give reasons to hurl personal insults. That shows nothing but a lack of civility and complete ignorance. Nobody stated that anybody "had" to agree but because someone does not follow your ideology does not make him or her and idiot as you guys all portray them (anybody) to be. I have never been afraid to state an opinion in a respectful manner, and I even have corrected/reversed myself when logical arguments are produced. The majority of this thread is nothing but emotion and not fact and logic even if the facts or logic do not benefit you.

  • DavidEF - My apologies that you got caught up this. Thank you for trying to at least understand, whether in agreement or not.
  • Bort - MAP is not price fixing as your own words so state. You also mention "our rights"...do not business have the right to choose also or are we living in a society where we will have to ask for permission to make purchases by getting on a government list. Also paying for CREE and getting Lb has nothing to do with MAP...that is fraud.
  • Muto - Freddy was eventually killed but capitalism cannot Wink
  • Wdkingery - The free market means that the consumer has a choice, as do the suppliers. All a business is responsible for is to provide us with what we agree to pay for and the consumer pay for what is provided.
  • Southland - We have proven time and time again that MAP can be avoided and often circumvented
  • SawMaster - Actually it is not about controlling any market as much as it is maintaining profitability of a distributing infrastructure to allow people to have more choices.
  • Hank - Whether you agree or not thank you for at least looking at this objectively
  • O.L - I cannot comment to your comments, I want to but I am torn and since I am NOT a dealer with NOTHING to gain I would rather just be surprised and disagree.
  • Jack Kellar - The subject of MAP is not price gouging if for nothing else you do not need to buy any flashlight other than what you want to pay for
  • RC - Tongue Out
  • Kuoh - Simply put, if a dealer cannot profit selling an item then that dealer will not stock that item and then since no dealers will purchase an item from a manufacturer then that manufacturer will cease to exist which in turn actually limits choices more and even raises prices because of less competition. If a manufacturer stated that a dealer can sell no other brand (and they used to) then that is limiting choices.
  • DanielM - Do you really have anything to say that has any substance, whether in agreement or not? You have added nothing but insults in the last several postings you made not in this thread but many threads.
  • B42 - The consumer chooses whether or not they feel something is worth paying for. If not then it does not sell and the market automatically corrects it or it ends up going away.

 

Yeah, yeah.

Everyone that agrees with you uses fact and logic.

Everyone that disagrees with you uses emotion, lack of civility, and complete ignorance.

...

Two friends walk into a bar.

The bartender asks, "What will you have?"

The first friend says, "I'll have you know that MAP helps everyone."

The second friend says, "I agree, and my claims are based on fact.  Anyone that says differently bases their claims on feelings, with no reasonable objection, and only childish preference."

The bartender says, "Two cosmopolitans, coming right up."

Silly

Mr.Big
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Well this has been a rather eye opening post… Where is the pig head on a stick???

I am rather new to this forum, and am quite surprised by this outburt of pitchforks, torches, tar, and feathers. I am not affiliated with any company on this forum, I just work at a small automotive shop and have some experience with MAP.

I don’t see why everyone is getting so bent out of shape about Minimum ADVERTISED Pricing… That all important word implicitly states that’s the lowest price a selling dealer is allowed to advertise. All it does is keep some seller on the “internetz” from creating a cheap website that sells everything for $1 over cost, drop shipping items, and punting any claims of damages or defective goods back to the manufacturer. So, yes it is good for the dealers, because it allows them to earn a living wage, pay their bills, pay their employees, invest in more inventory to better serve you, buy a jetski, etc… Profit is NOT a four letter word.

MAP has nothing to do with true cost, if a manufacturer makes a product that is of a build quality that does not warrant its price tag, it will not sell. You as a consumer still live in a dollar democracy where you vote with your money. If you have enough gumption to root out a better price, more power to you, all MAP does in the day of the “Internetz” is keep some cutthroat company from spamming Google with super low prices to be at the top of any web search for a product… It isn’t this malevolent force that’s out to bleed you dry.

unknown00101
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Brad I appreciate the example. I'm definitely picking up some whitecastle burgers this week. Smile

bugsy36
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Sharpie,

What's wrong with a US perspective? Tongue Out

I understand that the EU, AUS, and UK may deem it to be illegal but let me ask:

  • As of when do the laws of a nation equal the laws of the rest of the world?
    • This post is about the purpose of MAP and not the validity of the laws of sovereign nations
  • Why are people in the EU, AUS, and UK ordering internationally?
    • If those same laws deem MAP to be illegal then everybody in the EU, UK, and AUS should be able to purchase the same products at the same prices that we buy internationally.
    • Unless of course those product by those companies are not available due to the government interference (which is what the USA was actually founded upon)
  • Why is it that more products are available in the US than any other place in the world?
    • Free trade allows for all products, except items that affect national security or public health, to be sold if the market (or populace) is willing to pay. VAT is the biggest hindrance to free trade, not MAP

 

All of the products that we here purchase internationally are available in the US. We choose to forego the immediate satisfaction of receipt in order to achieve a better price. Even so, we and all flashlight forums combined still do not put a dent in total sales of the flashlight market (one reason why we get away with what we do...which also provides benefit to manufacturers and dealers). The stocking dealers need to make money in order to survive, it is as simple as that.

For those that disagree, please open a brick and mortar store that sells/distributes flashlights (and all that goes with it such as rent, insurance, payroll, inventory with buy-ins) and sell for what you think at this moment is a fair price and profit. How long would that store actually stay around? MAP helps that and obviously it does work because those dealers that endure the expense of a business actually do stick around. Even an internet dealer would find it difficult to be profitable.

As stated in the OP...the manufacturers benefit because dealers DO want to sell their product to their own customers that are willing to pay for it. It does not mean BLF members have to be willing to pay for it but we are not a blip in the whole picture. Smile

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

Ευκαιρία λέει πιάσε με από το μέτωπο γιατί μόλις έχω περάσει δεν θα με πιάσειs

The Miller
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bugsy36 wrote:
Why is it that more products are available in the US than any other place in the world?

caugh China caugh

Everything, or about everything is available in Europe as it is in the US. (EDIT no it is about the same, maybe product A not here but product B not there /EDIT)
Buying stuff from China as a lot of us do is simply cheaper.
Sure government plays a huge part in this, taxes, wages, expenses are higher because of regulations we have that they don’t have in China. And I agree that US government is slightly less influential then EU governments, but companies have a bigger influence on rules and regulations in the US, thus it is very locigal a system like MAP that mainly benefits companies and seems less beneficial for consumers is allowed in the US.

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As different as we may be, We’re all one big family, If we just agree, We’re gonna disagree.

Why can’t we all just get a long neck, And make a toast to peace and harmony? Why, why can’t we all just get a long neck, And see how good getting along can be? Beer Beer Beer

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bugsy36
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gentlemen drink

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

Ευκαιρία λέει πιάσε με από το μέτωπο γιατί μόλις έχω περάσει δεν θα με πιάσειs

bugsy36
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Points taken, even though I do not fully agree BUT..why no answers to the questions?

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

Ευκαιρία λέει πιάσε με από το μέτωπο γιατί μόλις έχω περάσει δεν θα με πιάσειs

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robo819 wrote:
As different as we may be, We’re all one big family, If we just agree, We’re gonna disagree. Why can’t we all just get a long neck, And make a toast to peace and harmony? Why, why can’t we all just get a long neck, And see how good getting along can be? Beer Beer Beer
+1 And I would add to that “Why can’t we sometimes disagree without ever having to resort to personal attacks?”

Thanks to all who were willing to simply discuss MAP in this thread, whether in agreement or disagreement. I should have stuck to doing the same. Silly

The Cycle of Goodness: “No one prospers without rendering benefit to others”
- The YKK Philosophy

rockhound42
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In 1st century BC, Publilius Syrus wrote: "Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it".

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Introduction_to_Economics

 

 

 

Beer
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MAP and NOMAP are two equal products being wholesaled at identical prices. A retailer buys MAP for resale, knowing his retail price will not be undercut by a competitor. He also knows that if he also offers NOMAP at the usual lower price set by the market competition he will make less profit per unit than by selling MAP but he will move more units and probably end up with the same net income. And he know that doing this would result in reduced sales of MAP because in comparison it would be seen as overpriced by his customers because it is overpriced- NOMAP sales being higher proves that. So most retailers would either choose to not sell NOMAP so as to not hurt their MAP sales or to not offer MAP so they don’t get stuck holding boxes of MAP which does not sell.

I fail to see an advantage unless every wholesaler is like MAP in setting guaranteed prices. It either influences the retailer to not sell NOMAP-type items or restricts his product line to MAP-like items only, and neither is good for the retailer seeking to expand their product line or consumer who either loses buying choices or ends up paying more than they needed to for a given product. Drop-shippers won’t be harmed but those retailers with an investment in inventory will be, which discourages a whole segment of marketers from entering the business. No matter what, the MAP wholesalers and retailers will sell less product than they could so they lose from the practice, not gain from it.

There’s the simple logic of this, no emotions or feelings involved. Show me where I am wrong Bugsy36. Educate me for I do not like to be stupid and I crave truth.

Respectfully,
SawMaster

JayT
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Thank you for posting this i dont really understand any of it but at least i can pretend to know what MAP police means now when it comes up in posts .

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SawMaster wrote:
MAP and NOMAP are two equal products being wholesaled at identical prices. A retailer buys MAP for resale, knowing his retail price will not be undercut by a competitor. He also knows that if he also offers NOMAP at the usual lower price set by the market competition he will make less profit per unit than by selling MAP but he will move more units and probably end up with the same net income. And he know that doing this would result in reduced sales of MAP because in comparison it would be seen as overpriced by his customers because it is overpriced- NOMAP sales being higher proves that. So most retailers would either choose to not sell NOMAP so as to not hurt their MAP sales or to not offer MAP so they don’t get stuck holding boxes of MAP which does not sell.

I fail to see an advantage unless every wholesaler is like MAP in setting guaranteed prices. It either influences the retailer to not sell NOMAP-type items or restricts his product line to MAP-like items only, and neither is good for the retailer seeking to expand their product line or consumer who either loses buying choices or ends up paying more than they needed to for a given product. Drop-shippers won’t be harmed but those retailers with an investment in inventory will be, which discourages a whole segment of marketers from entering the business. No matter what, the MAP wholesalers and retailers will sell less product than they could so they lose from the practice, not gain from it.

There’s the simple logic of this, no emotions or feelings involved. Show me where I am wrong Bugsy36. Educate me for I do not like to be stupid and I crave truth.

Respectfully,
SawMaster


Here’s the simple truth: Retailers will likely sell both MAP and NOMAP right next to each other on the shelf and not be bothered at all by it. All the retailer cares about is that it does sell. And, if it does not sell, they will offer a coupon to get rid of it, and not order any more from the manufacturer. In the end, only the manufacturer can be hurt by MAP policies. Consumers can always choose not to buy, and retailers can always choose not to lose money by giving store shelf space to something that will not sell. As for the supposed conflict about more/less profit for the retailer. I’m certain they won’t let that be a major factor in whether or not to sell the product. If it can sell, and make some reasonable profit, they will give shelf space to it. The bigger problem for them would be for their competitor to have it on the shelf and they not, if it is a good selling product.

The Cycle of Goodness: “No one prospers without rendering benefit to others”
- The YKK Philosophy

bugsy36
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Sawmaster,

The MAP policies are for the dealers. The MAP police come about because of complaints. The manufacturers set their prices. Any salesman worth a flip will not let someone walk out the door (within reason) BUT that is not a violation of MAP and happens regularly. The discount, if given, is based on the the profit needed by the dealer and not necessarily greed. Yet the uninformed believe that profit is evil and based on greed. That is just simply not true (unless we want to discuss pharmaceuticals that we subsidize for the world.)

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

Ευκαιρία λέει πιάσε με από το μέτωπο γιατί μόλις έχω περάσει δεν θα με πιάσειs

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Not sure if everyone’s on the same page.

MAP ≠ what flashlight companies are claiming as MAP.

We had our group buys stomped on because our secret price as below the minimum advertised price.

As some have pointed out, large online malls (Amazon, etc.) go around this by putting “Too low to show… please view price in cart,” which isn’t a violation of MAP. Weirdly enough, Chinese manufacturers shoot us nasty PMs saying “you’ve violated MAP blah blah blah” when they’re the ones not grasping the meaning of minimum advertised price.

So, I do agree that MAP can be useful when used correctly, I’ve yet to see a proper implementation in the flashlight community.

BLF ≠ B-grade Flashlight Forum

 

borked
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MAP is a deliberate attempt to drive up prices and create an artificial prestige status to a brand.
In Australia for example, it is illegal as it is seen as a form of collusion/market fixing.

How much are the companies paying you to be their spokesman OP ?
Are you aware you’re advocating a criminal offence in some countries?

brad
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unknown00101 wrote:

Brad I appreciate the example. I’m definitely picking up some whitecastle burgers this week. Smile

If you are shopping for the frozen ones, remember to look for the best price.

Not what we have but what we enjoy, constitutes our abundance.

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borked wrote:
Are you aware you’re advocating a criminal offence in some countries?

Not what we have but what we enjoy, constitutes our abundance.

bugsy36
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Now that one is funny! LOL

It's the simple things that we take for granted that cost us the most

Ευκαιρία λέει πιάσε με από το μέτωπο γιατί μόλις έχω περάσει δεν θα με πιάσειs

brad
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Sharpie wrote:
The US has long since ceased to be the manufacturing powerhouse of the world.
The United States slipped to second in manufacturing in 2010/11, it isn’t as though it isn’t still a global manufacturing powerhouse.

““Manufacturing
Publication Date: January 6, 2014
Author: Dan Meckstroth
Councils: CFO, Division Leadership, Environmental, Health & Safety, Ethics & Compliance, Financial, Global Logistics, Law, CEO, Purchasing, Quality, Sales, Strategic Planning & Development, Sustainability
Topics: Global Economy, Money & Finance, GDP

China is the largest manufacturing economy in the world, with a 22% share of manufacturing activity. The U.S. is in second place with a 17.4% share. China has achieved this position through extremely fast growth in physical volume of manufacturing activity with modest inflation. China has more than four times the population of the United States, and though its manufacturing intensity of $1,856 per capita value-added in 2012 is high for a developing economy, it is well behind advanced countries such as the United States ($6,280).

World Rankings
ChinaRefers to mainland China. displaced the United States as the world’s largest manufacturing nation in 2010 and widened its lead in 2012, according to recently published data from the United Nations.”“

Not what we have but what we enjoy, constitutes our abundance.

brad
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Quote:
Sharpie wrote: The US has long since ceased to be the manufacturing powerhouse of the world.

Which European country manufactures more than the country called the United States, or China?

Top 10 Manufacturing Countries in 2020Dec 9, 2015
A new study on future global competitiveness, by Deloitte Global and the U.S. Council on Competitiveness, predicts that the U.S. will dislodge China as the most competitive manufacturing nation in the world in 2020.

“Manufacturing competitiveness, increasingly propelled by advanced technologies, is converging the digital and physical worlds, within and beyond the factory to both customers and suppliers, creating a highly responsive, innovative, and competitive global manufacturing landscape,” says Craig Giffi, a leader in Deloitte US Consumer & Industrial Products Industry group and co-author of the report.

The 2016 Global Manufacturing Competitiveness Index forecasts that the top eleven countries will remain consistent between now and 2020, with some exchange of rankings.

“While emerging markets continue to push the leaders, the findings demonstrate the strength of the manufacturing powerhouses of the 20th century with the United States, Germany, and Japan holding three of the top four positions currently and in the future” commented Giffi.

“If you add in the UK and Canada, which are also part of the top ten most competitive manufacturing nations, it really emphasizes the ‘back to the future’ theme of these research findings. It also suggests that the BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, and China) – with the exception of China – seem to have lost their allure as highly competitive manufacturing locations today, based on the views of executives responding to this study. India, however, is projected to move back up to the top five in the world, demonstrating executive optimism for the country in the future.”

Not what we have but what we enjoy, constitutes our abundance.

Lazy-R-us
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I keep reading and promising myself not to get involved, oh well.

I don’t like MAP, it is a PITA when trying to get the best deal on a product. “Price available in cart!” YUCK – Just one more obstacle in the way of me getting the information that I need.

BUT

I can see how it can be helpful to consumers in the long term.

If I may borrow the use of the MTNElectronics store for a few minutes thought experiment;

Lets say RMM decides to carry a new LIon battery that everyone agrees is just plain awesome. The only other place to get the battery is through Amazon. If Amazon decides it wants to corner the market, it has enough muscle and buying power to advertise and sell these batteries at a loss until RMM can no longer afford to carry them. Once RMM no longer has them in stock, Amazon can raise the price as far as it wants, since there is no competition.

If however, there is a MAP agreement in place, RMM has at least a chance of competing and holding on to some amount of business.

Which of these scenarios benefits the consumer? – Well, your question is incomplete. Which consumer? The lucky buggers who grabbed the first few cells during the price war? (And can no longer get any more at that great price?) Or the consumers who want to be able to source these cells long term?

It isn’t like this is a theoretical argument – every time Walmart moves into a new area, prices go down, small stores go out of business, and prices stabilize at a new, higher than pre-Walmart level. MAP is not a very good or accurate tool to keep this from happening, but it can mitigate the effects.

Lazy-R-us

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Lazy-R-us wrote:
I keep reading and promising myself not to get involved, oh well.

I don’t like MAP, it is a PITA when trying to get the best deal on a product. “Price available in cart!” YUCK – Just one more obstacle in the way of me getting the information that I need.

BUT

I can see how it can be helpful to consumers in the long term.

If I may borrow the use of the MTNElectronics store for a few minutes thought experiment;

Lets say RMM decides to carry a new LIon battery that everyone agrees is just plain awesome. The only other place to get the battery is through Amazon. If Amazon decides it wants to corner the market, it has enough muscle and buying power to advertise and sell these batteries at a loss until RMM can no longer afford to carry them. Once RMM no longer has them in stock, Amazon can raise the price as far as it wants, since there is no competition.

If however, there is a MAP agreement in place, RMM has at least a chance of competing and holding on to some amount of business.

Which of these scenarios benefits the consumer? – Well, your question is incomplete. Which consumer? The lucky buggers who grabbed the first few cells during the price war? (And can no longer get any more at that great price?) Or the consumers who want to be able to source these cells long term?

It isn’t like this is a theoretical argument – every time Walmart moves into a new area, prices go down, small stores go out of business, and prices stabilize at a new, higher than pre-Walmart level. MAP is not a very good or accurate tool to keep this from happening, but it can mitigate the effects.


However with internet stores there are no physical locations to shut down, walmart cannot move in on his region or territory because he has none. Amazon does not have a monopoly on cell production, anyone can open a store, as long as the manufacturer will sell to him he (or anyone else) can always decide to carry them again at any point in the future.
Your points don’t add up anyways because MAP did not save him or benefit amazon, both are still theoretically free to sell at any price, but when companies cut out retailers they affect the small guy disproportionately, amazon can afford MAP induced loses because they are a big business, RMM is a smaller one and MAP police all over him can ruin him when he was just trying to undercut amazon to stay in business.

I also keep saying i am done with this thread, doesn’t seem to work Sad

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brad
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Lazy-R-us, Walmart has lower prices, not higher prices.

I have never seen a Walmart drive up prices for the consumer, in my experience it is always the opposite, and why is the store hated by the left and favored by the working people always the example of evil, why not Home Depot, or Costco, or Target, or Albertsons, or Vons?

I see Walmarts in the same strip center as Von’s and other supermarkets, and yet they both survive, in small towns I see Albertsons and Walmarts, and the rest.

When has a single online seller been able to takeover a brand like Olight, and destroy the ability of anyone else online to sell it?

Not what we have but what we enjoy, constitutes our abundance.

gerald_clark
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I only have one question.

. . . How’s the Yugo running?

brad
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It sounds like you have a political position on what store your fellow citizens buy their groceries and socks from, with some general anti-Americanism thrown in, wherever “here” is for you.

It seems that Walmart has been good for Asda and Britain.
From wiki:
*Asda near bankruptcy and purchase by Walmart * “ Norman was chairman of the company during the period 1996–99, and remodeled the store along the lines of the world’s largest retailer, Walmart, sending protégé Allan Leighton to Bentonville, Arkansas to assess and photograph the systems and marketing deployed by Walmart.
When Norman left the company to pursue his political career, he was replaced by Leighton. Walmart wanted to enter the UK market so CEO Bob Martin lobbied British Prime Minister Tony Blair on planning issues. Asda, which at the time owned 229 stores, was purchased by Walmart on 26 July 1999 for £6.7 billion, trumping a rival bid from Kingfisher plc.

“Asda Stores Limited is an American-owned, British-founded supermarket retailer, headquartered in Leeds, West Yorkshire. The company became a subsidiary of the American retail corporate giant Walmart after a £6.7 billion takeover in July 1999, and is now the second-largest supermarket chain in Britain, by market share.”

Not what we have but what we enjoy, constitutes our abundance.

brad
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You made your anti-Americanism pretty clear, and as far as Asda and Walmart, they seem to be extremely popular among the British people.

“The company became a subsidiary of the American retail corporate giant Walmart after a £6.7 billion takeover in July 1999, and is now the second-largest supermarket chain in Britain, by market share.””

Not what we have but what we enjoy, constitutes our abundance.

brad
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No, the story is that being the second-largest supermarket chain in Britain shows that Asda/Walmart are fabulously popular among consumers.

I don’t know why the international left hates Walmart but they do, in America, the left rages against them constantly, it seems to be because they don’t give enough money to their political party and are non-union, like almost everyone in America since less than 93% of non-government Americans belong to a union, and many of those because it is required in some of the less free sections of America.

Not what we have but what we enjoy, constitutes our abundance.

1dash1
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You’re treading on a sensitive subject. Evil

Nuff said.

Rule 1-1 as it applies to life, take it as it comes.

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