*BLF LT1 Lantern Project) (updated Nov,17,2020)

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Tom Tom
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PS: if you add the battery protection IC then it would also protect the cells from over-discharge.

Search “TP4056 battery protection”

sbslider
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Thanks for your feedback TomTom. My biggest concern about the TP4056, and most charger circuits, is the lack of reverse voltage protection.

DEL was doing the driver board for this project and had a powerbank board designed, but he has disappeared. And his powerbank design suffered from lack of reverse voltage protection as well. Adding a schottky diode is an option, but of course the battery charge goes down by the diode forward voltage. DELs design was quite nice, but also requires a 24 pin surface mount IC which I don’t have the ability to work with for prototyping.

I have considered that if one installs the batteries properly once, having USB charging will eliminate the need for removing and replacing the batteries for charging, which is a good thing.

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

Tom Tom
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sbslider wrote:
My biggest concern about the TP4056, and most charger circuits, is the lack of reverse voltage protection.

Take a look at the Microchip MCP73861.

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/21893F.pdf

https://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/en020210

“6.1.1.4 Reverse-Blocking Protection
The MCP7386X provides protection from a faulted or
shorted input, or from a reversed-polarity input source.
Without the protection, a faulted or shorted input would
discharge the battery pack through the body diode of
the internal pass transistor.”

Edit: sorry, appears to be obsolete. I’ll do a little more digging.

Edit 2, see MCP73113 and MCP73871. Also protected from RP.

I daresay there are others.

Eraursls1984
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Tom Tom wrote:
…(unless going USBC). This has been discussed and rejected…

Why was USB-C rejected? I think it should be the obvious choice. Everything has recently went to USB-C, so it already has wide spread adoption. Micro USB is on it way out, and in just a few years will not be as easily available. Whereas USB-C will be easily found for the next 5-10 years, maybe more. Not to mention that the USB-C cables tend to last much longer. I’ve been using the same two USB-C cables for two years (bedside and car charger). MicroSD would only last 3-9 months for good quality cables, and about 1-2 months for cheap cables.
Madtoffel
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As far as I remember we already discussed the charging solution a while ago (check page 64) and decided that we want to use USB c and a BQ25895 (datasheet ) charging chip.

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Eraursls1984 wrote:
Everything has recently went to USB-C, so it already has wide spread adoption. Micro USB is on it way out, and in just a few years will not be as easily available.
I don’t know which planet you live on but here you can still easily get any USB cable, even the big fat type B. Micro USB cables will likely be around for decades.

Perhaps more relevant is that a few years from now, USB-C is more likely to mean one less cable to bring on a trip. But I don’t really care either way and I think either choice will be the wrong one for many people so we might as well just toss a coin.

sbslider
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Madtoffel wrote:
As far as I remember we already discussed the charging solution a while ago (check page 64) and decided that we want to use USB c and a BQ25895 (datasheet ) charging chip.

I did state that there was a design completed by DEL that used the BQ25895. However, I do not have the equipment to solder this part to a PCB for testing purposes. I really like the part and the circuit DEL designed, but am unable to build a prototype. That was part of the reason I wrote this post to see if there were any forum members willing to assist in this part of the project.

If we receive offers for the ability to build prototypes using the BQ25895, then it is certainly still a possibility.

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

sbslider
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Tom Tom wrote:

Edit 2, see MCP73113 and MCP73871. Also protected from RP.

I daresay there are others.


Thanks Tom Tom, I will take a look into those parts. Ok, I took a quick look and they quote reverse discharge protection. I think those are strange words to say the leakage back into the chip is “low” whatever that means. I did not look at those specifications. What I did look at was that if the voltage between the BATT output and the return are reversed, then you exceed the rating of the part, and it likely fails. It only takes once to kill the part.

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

Tom Tom
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sbslider wrote:
Tom Tom wrote:

Edit 2, see MCP73113 and MCP73871. Also protected from RP.

I daresay there are others.


Thanks Tom Tom, I will take a look into those parts. Ok, I took a quick look and they quote reverse discharge protection. I think those are strange words to say the leakage back into the chip is “low” whatever that means. I did not look at those specifications. What I did look at was that if the voltage between the BATT output and the return are reversed, then you exceed the rating of the part, and it likely fails. It only takes once to kill the part.

You can protect against reverse polarity very simply with just a small inexpensive FET. No significant voltage drop (unlike a diode).

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slva139/slva139.pdf

Edit: a PFet protection is pretty much universal for automotove electronics, together with a big Transzorb to protect against alternator load dump events (not a torch problem).

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Reverse-Batery-Protection-Rev2.pdf?fileId=...

Tom Tom
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Madtoffel wrote:
As far as I remember we already discussed the charging solution a while ago (check page 64) and decided that we want to use USB c and a BQ25895 (datasheet ) charging chip.

I think you mis-remember.

As for using the BQ25895 that’s a mad idea. to benefit from any of the features it has to have a microcontroller to set it up, and I think the firmware required would make the stuff to run the LEDs on the lantern seem trivial.

And it is an expensive part. Very expensive.

Study the datasheet.

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/bq25895.pdf

This is just a torch/lantern, a simple USB micro to charge it up is all that it needs.

If you want it to be a powerbank, well, it’s possible, but take a look at how they are usually done, a USB micro to charge, and a big clunky (but so reliable) USB A for power output.

USBC is not necessarily the next big thing. And is expensive to implement. I have two devices that use it (a smartphone and a Samsung Galaxy TabPro S. Both of them now have dodgy connectors, only used with the OEM cables, a couple of insertions per day. If the connectors fail completely then I will have no way to get my data out, or even charge them. Not happy.

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I also thought we had decided on Usb-C. I am 70 and my eyesight is failing. Up until recently I struggled with multiple different Usb cables trying to find the right one and especially the right orientation. Last year I got a Note8 which has ‘C’ and it has been SO MUCH easier …… I know we usually learn from our mistakes, and I think this would be one, but I am confident BLF L2 will have ‘C’…. if I am still around for it.

Im not a Pessimist …. just an Optimist with a lot of experience


A little John Prine

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@ Tom Tom- Are you saying that the C is more prone to damage than the others? I would think it would be the other way around since usually if there is a problem with a damaged connection it is because users either try to force a wrong plug or try to connect with the plug upside down….. Are the C plugs inferior in quality? If it is a cost issue….. how much more would it be per lantern?

Im not a Pessimist …. just an Optimist with a lot of experience


A little John Prine

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Am i the only one here who dont have any usb-c device? Oops

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puglife2 wrote:
Am i the only one here who dont have any usb-c device? Oops

I don’t, not even sure what it looks like.

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

sbslider
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Tom Tom wrote:

You can protect against reverse polarity very simply with just a small inexpensive FET. No significant voltage drop (unlike a diode).

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slva139/slva139.pdf

Edit: a PFet protection is pretty much universal for automotove electronics, together with a big Transzorb to protect against alternator load dump events (not a torch problem).

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Reverse-Batery-Protection-Rev2.pdf?fileId=...


Thanks for the link Tom Tom. BlueSwordM described an identical circuit to me recently and for some reason I just did not get it. Seeing it in a different presentation made it click I guess. Grad I will be adding this to the driver for sure.

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

DBSAR
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Tom Tom wrote:
sbslider wrote:
I am looking for schematics diagrams of these features to incorporate into the driver as appropriate. The best would be a powerbank feature. Others include a simple cell charger.

For the charger, the obvious starting point is the TP4056.

https://lygte-info.dk/review/Review%20Charger%20TP4056%20UK.html

https://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/datasheets/Prototyping/TP4056.pdf

Perhaps other newer chips are better, but the TP4056 is well established, and very inexpensive. If you need more than 1A you can parallel them. 1A is enough for an overnight (or daytime) charge. This lantern, if fully loaded with x4 18650s should last many days on one charge. If loaded with just one 18650 a 1A charge would be a fast charge.

To make it into a powerbank is much more complicated, there are several different incompatible protocols unless it is just to be a very basic charger, and it would also require another connector (unless going USBC). This has been discussed and rejected. Unless you can find an integrated chip that does it all, at a low price.

TBH, it would probably be easier just to fit a generic TP4056 PCB, including connector etc. as a separate board, plenty of space in the head, mechanically superior, easily replaceable when the connector wears out or is damaged. You can buy ten of them for under $2 delivered from China. Just connect it with four header pins.

well said TomTom, that’s the reasons why i tested the 1 amp TP4056 to be perfectly suited for the lantern, as even with four 3600mah high capacity cells, the 1A TP4056 would charge them in less than a day (of which time the lantern is not used) and the lantern will run for a few nights on a charge at 5 to 6 hours per night on high. There is no need for “Fast charging” at 2+ amps what so ever for this application, which causes problems i tested when trying to charge from lower powered Solar panels, wall adapters, RV USB ports, etc. it will be likely limited to 1 amp charging for the production model for those reasons. Unlike phones & tablets where fast0charging ratea are a great idea, for the lantern purpose it really does not need it at all.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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Coscar wrote:
@ Tom Tom- Are you saying that the C is more prone to damage than the others? I would think it would be the other way around since usually if there is a problem with a damaged connection it is because users either try to force a wrong plug or try to connect with the plug upside down….. Are the C plugs inferior in quality? If it is a cost issue….. how much more would it be per lantern?

USB-C is the planned charging port interface for the production lantern (if it do not add to much more to the retail price of the lantern) if USB-C is to cost-prohibitive, then we will have to go with USB-Micro. we will know once Barry can determine the cost difference for us.

EDIT: – I been searching for USB-C type charger/USB power bank modules and have had no luck with finding anything at all that seems to use the USB-C port for both charging cells and use as a power bank output all in one port (as some people said it was capable of, but i have not found that option existing at this time) it seems to have both the charging capability & USB power bank option there will be have to be two ports, and a separate female-USB-A socket for connecting devices like smart phones to charge them. (USB-C for the charging-in port, (or revert to USB-Micro if the manufacturer determines that USB-C is too cost prohibitive for the production lantern)

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

Coscar
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sbslider wrote:
puglife2 wrote:
Am i the only one here who dont have any usb-c device? Oops
I don’t, not even sure what it looks like.

The next ‘new’ Usb device you get should have it…..
it is symmetrical(there is no right/wrong way to plug it in)

Im not a Pessimist …. just an Optimist with a lot of experience


A little John Prine

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puglife2 wrote:
Am i the only one here who dont have any usb-c device? Oops

Hahaha I was afraid to say that I don’t have any either. But it seems that I’m not the only one without one.
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Baseus 2 in 1 Type C Micro USB Data Sync Charging 1.2M Cable for Samsung S8 Xiaomi 6 Letv
https://banggood.app.link/XtLGqYYiMO

To all those who doesn’t have USB type C yet, I suggest you get some of these. Great quality at an affordable price. I have one in my car, a couple in my house as well as in my camping box.

Acebeam L18, Armytek Prime C1 Pro, Armytek Prime C2 Pro, Armytek Tiara C1 Pro, Astrolux MF01 Mini, BLF Q8, BLF A6, BLF FW1A, BLF FW3A, BLF FW3C, BLF LT1, Convoy L6, Convoy C8+ , Convoy S3, Emisar D4, Fireflies E07, Jaxman E2L, Manta Ray C8.2 long version, Olight S1R Baton II special edition series, S2R Baton II, Olight Baton 3, Olight Warrior Mini, Olight M2R Pro Warrior.

Most of them have been modded! =)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JaJaDv4V838AEJf39

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If not too late, PLEASE put me on the list!

Definitely do not want to miss this!

Thanks!

BLF (GT, Q8, A6)
Haikelite (MT03 TA, SC01)
Astrolux (EC01, FT03, MF-01, S1, S42)
Sofirn (C8A, SP32A, SF14, SP40)
Emisar (D4, D4S)
[Convoy L6, Utorch UT02, KDLITKER C8.2, Inova T4R]

Tom Tom
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Coscar wrote:
@ Tom Tom- Are you saying that the C is more prone to damage than the others?

The USB C connectors are supposed to be more significantly more durable than the predecessors. As rated by number of insertion/extractions before wear (the plug is designed to wear preferentially to the socket, as is the USB micro).

However my real world experience with my two devices is that the connectors soon become loose and wobbly, to the extent that I now often have to wiggle the connector a bit before a good connection is made. This particularly affects the data connection.

My Samsung Tab is utterly reliant on this connection, I have an external dongle that is used as a docking station to connect three standard USB devices (printer, external HDD, SD card reader, TV tuner, etc.) as well as a gigabit ethernet port to my home network. When the connection is playing up it is extremely frustrating, and data loss is a very real risk, particularly with the HDD and SD card.

I regret buying the Samsung Tab, I trusted that USB C was to be as reliable as advertised, but my experience has been quite the opposite. Even finding a dongle to use as a dock, that also passed back the power connection so the Tab could charge whilst in use, was an expensive and frustrating challenge.

My ‘phone is less problematic, as it is primarily used just to charge it, but again, when I use it for a data connection it can be temperamental too.

Tom Tom
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DBSAR, I’ve had a quick look for powerbank ICs that are simple to use and not reliant on configuration by an MCU, the Active-Semi ACT28xx range looks promising.

In particular it appears to modulate the input current when charging “Accommodation for 10mA-3000mA input current” to suit the source capability. If so, that would be ideal for solar panel use, as well as adapting to low powered USB sockets etc, whilst making good use of high current chargers.

https://active-semi.com/applications/power-applications/power-bank

https://activeweb-rn0ur8xaybw.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/ACT2813_...

Available, inexpensive, and the bill of materials seems as small as you could hope for.

https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Active-Semi/ACT2813QY-T?qs=sGAEpi...

Edit: datasheet: https://www.mouser.co.uk/datasheet/2/631/ACT2813_Datasheet-1291437.pdf

AEDe
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About charger you can contact Rayden , he study theme of charger and solar panel durind long time.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/48834

It seems he not visiting BLF , but still active on Fonarevka.ru

Tom Tom
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I have a 10 AH battery bank with integral solar panel for charging. It uses an ACT IC and works very well. Keeps my smartphone charged on backpacking trips (left in flight mode except for two 1 hour windows per day for friends and family to call me, or to collect texts and e-mail). Main use of the phone is for GPS navigation and mapping, which is still a significant power draw even in flight mode.

As well as having a puny LED torch built in, which is sufficient for campsite chores, once eyes are dark-adapted. The ‘phone torch is much better, and of course I carry a proper one too (Olight S15 powered by AA alkaline if on a long walk)

It can also recharge my DSLR battery, though that flattens it and it then takes a couple of days to re-charge on solar.

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Tom Tom wrote:
Coscar wrote:
@ Tom Tom- Are you saying that the C is more prone to damage than the others?

The USB C connectors are supposed to be more significantly more durable than the predecessors. As rated by number of insertion/extractions before wear (the plug is designed to wear preferentially to the socket, as is the USB micro).

However my real world experience with my two devices is that the connectors soon become loose and wobbly, to the extent that I now often have to wiggle the connector a bit before a good connection is made. This particularly affects the data connection.

My Samsung Tab is utterly reliant on this connection, I have an external dongle that is used as a docking station to connect three standard USB devices (printer, external HDD, SD card reader, TV tuner, etc.) as well as a gigabit ethernet port to my home network. When the connection is playing up it is extremely frustrating, and data loss is a very real risk, particularly with the HDD and SD card.

I regret buying the Samsung Tab, I trusted that USB C was to be as reliable as advertised, but my experience has been quite the opposite. Even finding a dongle to use as a dock, that also passed back the power connection so the Tab could charge whilst in use, was an expensive and frustrating challenge.

My ‘phone is less problematic, as it is primarily used just to charge it, but again, when I use it for a data connection it can be temperamental too.


My Type-C phone has got quite a bit of abuse with me fumbling and pulling the wire often at odd angles. After a year it’s still perfect. Micro-USB port would have serious issues after surviving that.
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I’ve never had port issues, and I’m rough on things. However, the cables are another thing. My bedside cables use to last 3-9 months tops (normally closer to 3) with good quality cables (OEM, Anker, etc.). I’ve had my first USB C for 2 years now. I drop my phone while half asleep and that causes them not to make contact, or bend. The Type C just seem to be much stonger.

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Considering how cheap adapters are for C/Micro and that I have cables of both types, I couldn’t care less about the integrated charging. I prefer to use an external charger anyway. The bigger issue for me would be cost.

Tom Tom
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TheShadowGuy wrote:
The bigger issue for me would be cost.

Being realistic, this is going to have to cost at least as much as a Q8. More complicated mechanical construction, new parts to be engineered, injection moulding tools for the globe, and a new, more complicated driver/charger/powerbank circuit

Edit: to be designed, prototyped, tested, debugged, laid out, re-tested, signed off, then left to the manufacturer to re-implement with their choice of components, according to their buyers whim.

with extra connectors, extra machining of the head to fit them, potentially complex assembly and test. Then firmware integration. And it will be heavy.

There is the risk that this will be overtaken by smaller, lighter, cheaper models that are equally per-formant. At least one is already on the market.

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I don’t recall this being so complicated from the beginning.

When I joined the list, I just wanted a reliable, good runtime, and no glare lantern. Along the way, it became a charger, campfire mode, dimming mode, program this, program that.. what happened to KISS??

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