Why is there no System60?

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VFMaddict
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Why is there no System60?

Although I enjoy the outcome of modding and the sense of satisfaction at the end of it I'm not sure I actually enjoy the process.   Certainly I would welcome a simpler route to such an outcome.   Basically, I would welcome a universal P60 drop-in style approach across all single emitter lights, especially if all accepted the same sized module.   I can see no technical reason why they should not.  The P60 pill is the ideal standard.   Note that I’m talking the P60 pill not the whole module.

I guess we all agree that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with the P60 pill from a modding and heatsinking viewpoint.   The only problem is the way in which that pill is coupled thermally to the head/body of lights via a loose drop-in module.   However, if that pill were to screw into a light's head/body directly or via a solid screw-in sizing adapter then the p60 pill could very easily be used for literally all single emitter lights of p60 host size upwards.

For example, there is no reason why, instead of the ridiculous, aluminum disc suspended in mid air above a void, approach adopted by Trustfire for the X9 there is no reason that the space that holds this disc and driver could not have been machined to simply accept a screw-in P60 pill.   Indeed given that P60 pills are produced in such volume that they cost almost nothing, such an approach would surely have been less expensive for Trustfire than designing, machining and loading a proprietary disc and driver mounting.

I have no doubts that if any manufacturer were to launch a range of lights, let's call it System60, all of which could accept a p60 pill then they would be onto a guaranteed success.   I truly mean a full range of lights from p60 host size right up to 70mm headed throwers.   Think about it.   If there were two versions of the X9 – (a) the current crazy mount X9 - and – (b) an identical X9 that differed only in that it held the emitter and driver on a standard P60 pill, then which do you think would sell better?

How often have you seen peeps say how much they like a new light but hesitate to buy until they are sure it has a good pill?   There would be no such hesitation as regards a System60 light because you would know that it had a good pill, the P60 pill, one you could easily mod or even more easily replace with your favorite p60 pill, for example the pill from the Manafont 3 mode drop-in.

I am amazed that no Chinese manufacturer has seen the huge marketing opportunity of something like a System60 range.  But more so I remain totally astounded that the masters of low cost mass production have not recognized the huge savings that would be possible.  Instead of designing new pills for many lights and having to then load them with emitters and drivers, they could just machine the heads/tubes of lights to accept a standard P60 pill that they could buy in or mass produce for use in their whole range.

Tell me folks, am I talking rubbish or does System60 make total sense to you?   

"You are making progress if each mistake you make is a new one."

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Budgeteer
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Because they can get a way with sloppy machining that way. There is quite some minor difference by all dropins. No precision machining up to 0.01mm whatsoever.

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Tas62
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Like the TF=R2? http://budgetlightforum.com/node/1177

One of my favourite lights..currently hosting an XM-L U2 P60 pill.

E1320
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This is a brilliant idea, but would require standardized threading from the manufacturers who are very unlikely to cooperate with each other.

I am already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth.

VFMaddict
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In reply to Budgeteer

Budgeteer wrote:

Because they can get a way with sloppy machining that way. There is quite some minor difference by all dropins. No precision machining up to 0.01mm whatsoever.

.... and also in reply to E1320 as regards why other manufactures would comply.

 

No manufacturer ever manufactures its own proprietary pills (for non-p60 hosts) to such loose tolerances that it is hit or miss whether it even fits its own unique light.   But I agree it may not fit similar lights from a different manufacturer.    For example, a company’s own C8 pill may not fit all C8’s but it is machined accurately enough to fit the company’s own C8.    So what we are talking about here is not so much loose engineering but more correctly loose standards.    All that is therefore required is a firming up of the standard, which in the case of p60 pills is not entirely non-existent but is simply too loose currently.

The problem of standardisation is not unsurmountable and would be overcome by market forces.   It is rather like Solarforce’s lego-ability.   System60 could simply begin with a lego approach.   Launch a System60 range which one sells without pills and instead sells the pills separately, filled or unfilled.   So you could buy for example the System60 55mm light and then buy a System60 pill to go with it.  For example, a hard driven XM-L or a less well driven XM-L for longer run times or an R2 for maximum possible throw, etc.    At that point market dynamics would tighten the P60 standard.    Because others would want to be able to grab a piece of the action.  This is what happened with Surefire’s P60 drop-in design.   Other manufactures followed suit to grab a piece of the action.  

In reality all P60 drop-in manufacturers at present have to machine pills accurately enough to fit their own P60 reflectors (i.e. their own P60 pill receptor standard).    All they would need to do would be to shift their own reflector standard (i.e. their own P60 pill receptor standard) to match that of System60.    No greater engineering accuracy would be required only a marginal move to a different target pattern.   And they'd make that move to open sales to System60 owners.

 

 

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Tas62
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IT"S BEEN DONE!

http://www.manafont.com/product_info.php/trustfire-ter2-led-5mode-memory...

The only P60 pill that doesn't work without modding (enlarging emitter hole in reflector) is the MCE.

VFMaddict
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Tas62 wrote:

IT"S BEEN DONE!

http://www.manafont.com/product_info.php/trustfire-ter2-led-5mode-memory...

The only P60 pill that doesn't work without modding (enlarging emitter hole in reflector) is the MCE.

Yes and No.   One light doesn't make a system and on its own does not create market momentum.   Its too small to want to make other grab a piece of.    I'll wager that there are well over five hundred people in this world who are aware of the P60 drop-in standard for every one that is aware that this single TF-R2 light accepts P60 pills.   No P60 module manufacturer would bother to move their own definition of what the p60 pill standard is just in order to get the tiny extra sales that would result from users of this one little known light.   But extra sales from users of a whole range of lights..............that's a totally different story and well worth a slight change of their engineering target.    

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Chicago X
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The P60 "pill" limits driver and LED sizes to around 17mm.

http://wardogsmakingithome.org/index.html

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VFMaddict
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Chicago X wrote:
The P60 "pill" limits driver and LED sizes to around 17mm.

Correct but that's enough to take an XM-L and a driver capable of pushing it further than makes any sense.

I've often wondered why all toasters have setting numbers that are capable of incinerating a slice of toast.   Equally I wonder why massive sized drivers would ever really be needed for a single XM-L?   And remember we have only been talking about single emitter lights here.

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Tas62
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Is basically a Dereelight DBS knock off.

As shown here Dereelight have a range of flashlights with inerchangeable P60 size pills.

http://flashlightconnection.com/Dereelight-Flashlights-c1/

..........but no way are they budget.

VFMaddict
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Tas62 wrote:

Is basically a Dereelight DBS knock off.

As shown here Dereelight have a range of flashlights with inerchangeable P60 size pills.

http://flashlightconnection.com/Dereelight-Flashlights-c1/

..........but no way are they budget.

Yep there are a whole lot more people owning *fire lights than Dereehunters.

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E1320
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Please do not forget these are the same engineers that insist on putting a strobe and SOS mode on every light ever made.

I am already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth.

VFMaddict
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E1320 wrote:

Please do not forget these are the same engineers that insist on putting a strobe and SOS mode on every light ever made.

?

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Chicago X
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VFMaddict wrote:
.....Correct but that's enough to take an XM-L and a driver capable of pushing it further than makes any sense....

 

That's a matter of opinion.

Please show me a 2 x 18650 driver for a single XM-L that does 3A and fits a 17mm pill.

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VFMaddict
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Chicago X wrote:

VFMaddict wrote:
.....Correct but that's enough to take an XM-L and a driver capable of pushing it further than makes any sense....

That's a matter of opinion.

Please show me a 2 x 18650 driver for a single XM-L that does 3A and fits a 17mm pill.

You prove my point exactly.   Expecting to get 3A at 8.4v through an XM-L is, "pushing it further than makes any sense".    That's equivalent to 6A at 4.2v.    Surprised

I'm just having fun there though.   I presume you are talking about a driver capable of using 2*18650 or 1*18650 but which drives at 3A when using one.   Off the top of my head I can't think of a DIY driver that is so capable.  But I suspect one exists.    I'll have a look around.    Equally I'm not sure if any current 1* or 2*18650 light has such a driver but I'm sure others will be able to answer that question for both of us.

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Chicago X
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Extending runtime doesn't make sense? . . . I'm looking for a buck driver that delivers 2.8-3.0A to the LED, takes 2 Li-Ion and fits into a 16-17mm pill. Any help finding one would be appreciated. . . . Back on topic: In my opinion, the P60 format is suited for about 6-9 Watts of power. . . . . This tops out the LED offerings at 3 XP-G or one XM-L. The quad 5.6A XP-Gs require special cooling bezels to function adequately. Multiple XM-Ls or SSTs are right out. I think the market has simply passed up the physical constraints of the format. It's a shame, as I am a bit late to the game and still truly enjoy the P60 format and the LEGO fun it brings to the table.

http://wardogsmakingithome.org/index.html

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VFMaddict
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Chicago X wrote:
Extending runtime doesn't make sense? . . . I'm looking for a buck driver that delivers 2.8-3.0A to the LED, takes 2 Li-Ion and fits into a 16-17mm pill. Any help finding one would be appreciated. . . . Back on topic: In my opinion, the P60 format is suited for about 6-9 Watts of power. . . . . This tops out the LED offerings at 3 XP-G or one XM-L. The quad 5.6A XP-Gs require special cooling bezels to function adequately. Multiple XM-Ls or SSTs are right out. I think the market has simply passed up the physical constraints of the format. It's a shame, as I am a bit late to the game and still truly enjoy the P60 format and the LEGO fun it brings to the table.

Can I first suggest that you read my opening post again.   I made it clear that I was only suggesting using the P60 pill universally for single emitter lights.   So multi-LED lights don't come into it.

I truly think also that you are a bit confused about the relationship between volts and amps.   1.4A to 1.5A at 8.4v (i.e. 2*18650) is the same as 2.8-3.0A at 4.2v.   It drives the LED at least as hard; perhaps even fractionally better because at times LED's seem to respond better to increased voltage rather than increased current.  Believe me, you do not want a driver that delivers 3A at 8.4v to an XM-L.........I don't think a XM-L could ever draw that.

EDIT - Oooppps Sorry Chicago.  Now its me that's not reading posts properly.  I didn't notice at first that you said you were looking for a buck driver.  Now I see what you were getting at.


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I think System60 would be awesome.  Even as legoable as Solarforce lights are, for the life of me I can't understand why a Skyline, a Masterpiece and an L2P could not share a common pill and interchange with each other.  It was awesome getting the Masterpiece head and simply screwing on an L2P tube with an extension and having a completely different light.  Would be nice to take that concept to a new level and don't tell me many of us here have not wondered the same thing.

 

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Chicago X
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I am frankly puzzled by Surefire's willingness to abandon the format, given the investment.  Perhaps the Asian onslaught of clones was cutting into the profit.  I know Solarforce has emerged as the dominant player in that arena. 

 Surefire is litigious, so it is understandable other domestically-based manufacturers not rushing to jump in the P60 pool. 

In addition, an inter-manufacturer format would complicate warranty claims...e.g.:whose 'pill' cooked the switch?

Lastly, we have destroyed any hope by demanding cheap DIY parts.  One can assemble such a 'pill' less expensively than most sellers can reasonably deliver, IMO.  They want to profit on an entire light, darn it.

With that said, more P60-compatible hosts with careful attention paid to the thermal path would be very welcome.

http://wardogsmakingithome.org/index.html

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