FORCED-VENT 18650 in a Flashlight: >> first VIDEO is online!

65 posts / 0 new
Last post

Pages

DBSAR
DBSAR's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: 02/11/2013 - 23:28
Posts: 6476
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
FORCED-VENT 18650 in a Flashlight: >> first VIDEO is online!

in 3 weeks i will be traveling to Newfoundland, Canada to my home province for 3 weeks of traveling and off-grid camping. I will be bringing along a ton of flashlights, some to do wilderness beam-shot photos, testing, etc.
We will also be bringing the original Steam Pipe Light 1st-place winner from the BLF 2014 contest, & the Apocalypse 1st-place winner from the BLF 2015 contest to use, take photos, & give a work out there on the trip.
Some plans also set for this trip is to test the limits of 18650 Lithium Ion cells. as we will be doing some camping on my family’s 80 acre land, there are some nice open gravel pits to do the planned testing. What i plan to do, is video record what happens when a Lithium Ion 18650 cell “vents” inside a flashlight, and outside a flashlight. I have a couple dozen of Laptop pulls, Ultrafire, and other worn out 18650 cells, and i will be doing a battery of tests on them in the gravel pit. Some of these tests will be Overcharging, over heating, short-circuiting, etc., both in and out of a flashlight. I have 4 – 5 aluminum flashlights i will sacrifice for these tests, most particularly for the over-charging/venting tests. I will also do remote-video testing of 18650 cells in a over-heating situation, by setting up a Propane torch to heat the cell to the point of explosion. Also depending on my Uncle who owns the farm, i may do a test of an old 18650 cell (fully charged) being shot with a 22LR.
On this trip all my modded LED lanterns and flashlights will also get a work out, including the BLF/SRK Lantern prototype.
new topics will be posted for these adventures & tests. Big Smile

UPDATE, July25,2016:

- Below os the photo of the flashlight damage, from a forced to vent its 18650 Li-Ion cell in the light. >> The light was an all Aluminum side-clicky multi-5mm LED type. The light was turned on with a fully charged Samsung 18650 cell in the light, and force-vented from overheating to cause the thermal-runaway of the Lithium Ion 18650 cell. once i get the videos of the spectacular venting in action, i will post it here in another update. The force was great enough to cause the light to knock over the block of wood it was lend in place on by metal posts, along with a fireworks-like bang blowing out the side switch first, then blowing out the driver, lens, and LEDs board through the front. the head was intense enough to melt parts of the aluminum body, and disintegrate the driver board into ash in an instant.

Videos soon of both the in-light vent, and open cell venting of several cells, along with what it took to get these cells to vent, and what abuse they withstood!

UPDATE, August,1,2016:

- The first video is online! I just created a new Youtube Channel for all my upcoming reviews, tests, videos, etc. and the first video is the venting of an 18650 cell inside a flashlight.

- as explained above, we learned that most Lithium ion 18650 cells are much tougher than predicted.

- The first attempt to get a cell to vent (outside a light) was overcharging it very quickly with unlimited amps at 12 volts rate, ( from a DeepCycle RV Battery capable of 700 cranking amps) using a #14/2 AC extension cord. The three non-protected cells we tested, ( a Samsung, a Panasonic, and a cheap Ultrafire) all failed to Vent, they all got extremely hot but none of them vented. what did happen some internal “fuse” must have blew, as they went into an open circuit and ended up with 0 volts.

- the second test was with two more cells , ( a Samsung and a Sony) only this time we hit them with a fill 120 volt AC load, they too failed to vent! ( also went into a full open circuit) even though one the #14 gauge literally arced on the top on one cell and welded itself to the cell button, then the cell went open circuit again.

- Last we finally got some to vent, but with only applying heat slowly from a propane torch directly to the body of the cell. (same goes for the in-flashlight experiment. I will upload the cell venting test videos soon of the cell venting outside of lights, but below is the one of the 18650 Samsung venting INSIDE a light! With the flashlight securely held in place between two metal rods on a section of 2×6 board,
The flashlight was turned on with a fully charged cell (as seen in the video) Th rest of the events is listed at the time intervals below:

- at 2:08 minutes into the video the flashlight goes out.
- at 4:42 minutes into the video the rubber switch boot fails, venting some smoke from the light..
- at 5:56 minutes into the video the 18650 cell goes into full thermal runaway & vents with explosive force blowing out the switch, lens, LED board, and driver.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

Edited by: DBSAR on 08/01/2016 - 23:43
The Miller
The Miller's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 12/14/2015 - 12:08
Posts: 9881
Location: Charente France

hahahaha NICE

altonx
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 4 months ago
Joined: 02/22/2016 - 08:34
Posts: 241
Location: Central Europe

What’s an open gravel pit? Something along Open-pit mining? Have any pictures?
Any plans on testing brand new quality high current cells like Samsung 30Q or LG HG2? Short circut in elevated temperature? That would be very interesting and valuable knowledge especially in terms of safety concerns pertaining to all those moded high current pocket rockets with bypassed springs not acting as fuses anymore.

electricjelly
electricjelly's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 08/23/2012 - 03:39
Posts: 602
Location: Los Angeles

Sounds like alot of fun. Try not to breath the nasty fumes that come out.

I’d like to see if you can get one of the flashlights to explode like a pipe bomb. Every once in a while I hear about it happening to someone. It’d be interesting to see points of failure and such in a controlled setting.

I look forward to seeing the carnage.

Andrew2007
Andrew2007's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 4 weeks ago
Joined: 11/04/2015 - 16:07
Posts: 590
Location: Northumberland, England

Into the wilderness and messing around like this sound’s great, my sort of trip.

I’ll look forward to the video’s. Cool

DBSAR
DBSAR's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: 02/11/2013 - 23:28
Posts: 6476
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
altonx wrote:
What’s an open gravel pit? Something along Open-pit mining? Have any pictures? Any plans on testing brand new quality high current cells like Samsung 30Q or LG HG2? Short circut in elevated temperature? That would be very interesting and valuable knowledge especially in terms of safety concerns pertaining to all those moded high current pocket rockets with bypassed springs not acting as fuses anymore.

its an open field gravel area on his farm. I wish i could do testing on the more expensive cells like 30Q or LG HG2s, but can’t afford the cost of those at the moment.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

DBSAR
DBSAR's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: 02/11/2013 - 23:28
Posts: 6476
Location: Newfoundland, Canada

electricjelly wrote:
Sounds like alot of fun. Try not to breath the nasty fumes that come out.

I’d like to see if you can get one of the flashlights to explode like a pipe bomb. Every once in a while I hear about it happening to someone. It’d be interesting to see points of failure and such in a controlled setting.

I look forward to seeing the carnage.

these tests will be done in an open field under a controlled setup, and camera recorded from hundreds of feet away. ( using a Go-pro Hero3 cam, a Nikon D5100, and a Canon S15-IS cam all from different angles.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

MRsDNF
MRsDNF's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 hours 26 min ago
Joined: 12/22/2011 - 21:18
Posts: 13475
Location: A light beam away from the missus in the land of Aus.

Pack the camera now so you dont forget it. Smile
We want lots and lots of pictures.

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

DBSAR
DBSAR's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: 02/11/2013 - 23:28
Posts: 6476
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
MRsDNF wrote:
Pack the camera now so you dont forget it. Smile We want lots and lots of pictures.

Cameras, test equipment, and materials are packed & ready to go.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

altonx
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 4 months ago
Joined: 02/22/2016 - 08:34
Posts: 241
Location: Central Europe
DBSAR wrote:
altonx wrote:
What’s an open gravel pit? Something along Open-pit mining? Have any pictures? Any plans on testing brand new quality high current cells like Samsung 30Q or LG HG2? Short circut in elevated temperature? That would be very interesting and valuable knowledge especially in terms of safety concerns pertaining to all those moded high current pocket rockets with bypassed springs not acting as fuses anymore.

its an open field gravel area on his farm. i wish i could do testing on the more expensive sells, but can;t afford the cost at the moment.

Ok, I see. Thanks for any tests you perform to further our knowledge and simply to our entertainment Wink
Three weeks seems like too little time – but here’s an idea for second round (if there will be any): maybe you should consider crowdfunding here at BLF for some things to destroy. I think many people would be willing to donate some old/unused/crappy/detested stuff to see it burn Evil

DBSAR
DBSAR's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: 02/11/2013 - 23:28
Posts: 6476
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
altonx wrote:
DBSAR wrote:
altonx wrote:
What’s an open gravel pit? Something along Open-pit mining? Have any pictures? Any plans on testing brand new quality high current cells like Samsung 30Q or LG HG2? Short circut in elevated temperature? That would be very interesting and valuable knowledge especially in terms of safety concerns pertaining to all those moded high current pocket rockets with bypassed springs not acting as fuses anymore.

its an open field gravel area on his farm. i wish i could do testing on the more expensive sells, but can;t afford the cost at the moment.

Ok, I see. Thanks for any tests you perform to further our knowledge and simply to our entertainment Wink
Three weeks seems like too little time – but here’s an idea for second round (if there will be any): maybe you should consider crowdfunding here at BLF for some things to destroy. I think many people would be willing to donate some old/unused/crappy/detested stuff to see it burn Evil

good point Smile i have limited flashlights i can test at this level, but will certainly try to make it educating & entertaining.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 1 day ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 18319
Location: Amsterdam

Very nice, I’m looking forward to the report!

I wish I was there. It would involve ditching my family, skip work for a while and spend my savings, hmm, maybe not…

So which Canadian sends DBSAR some 30Q’s/LG’s/pannies for comparison? I’‘ll throw in 5 dollar, PP to the giver, to start the funding.

DBSAR
DBSAR's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: 02/11/2013 - 23:28
Posts: 6476
Location: Newfoundland, Canada

djozz wrote:
Very nice, I’m looking forward to the report!

I wish I was there. It would involve ditching my family, skip work for a while and spend my savings, hmm, maybe not…

So which Canadian sends DBSAR some 30Q’s/LG’s/pannies for comparison? I’‘ll throw in 5 dollar, PP to the giver, to start the funding.

It could be interesting as i have four 18650 lights I will sacrifice to the LiIon venting tests. (One for over voltage/charging, another for over heating (propane torch heating) and another maybe being shot

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

The Last Katun
The Last Katun's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 6 days ago
Joined: 04/29/2011 - 04:34
Posts: 366
Location: Rome, Italy.
DBSAR wrote:
in 3 weeks i will be traveling to Newfoundland, Canada to my home province for 3 weeks of traveling and off-grid camping. I will be bringing along a ton of flashlights, some to do wilderness beam-shot photos, testing, etc. …………..Some of these tests will be Overcharging, over heating, short-circuiting, etc. …………….

Your are very useful tests and follow the thread; but I do remember one thing: during a course, at the “School of War” (few decades ago) they made me one question: “if letting slip a grenade into the mouth of a mortar (120mm), nothing happens, what do you do?”
I said that I signaled and then abandoned the piece, though I was close to the enemy would put a trap; but by others I also heard answers like: “I try to pull the grenade” or “I rotate mortar down, and I slide off the grenade” (answers, clearly wrong and dangerous).
Well, if your experiment: the shorted battery inside a tube, or boiled in water, and nothing happens, what do you do? Prepare now for the right answer, because having, in those moments, the wrong answer, it is dangerous.

SawMaster
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 3 months ago
Joined: 05/03/2015 - 17:18
Posts: 1802
Location: SC USA

And mind the wind direction. Geez, some guys have all the fun Thumbs Up

Phil

Martini
Martini's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 05/07/2014 - 04:29
Posts: 647
Location: I da ho

Sweet, it’s Adventure Time!

scdaf wrote:
It’s important to have your restraints within walking distance, lest someone needs restraining. Wink
mhanlen
mhanlen's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
Joined: 03/01/2013 - 11:42
Posts: 2601
Location: Eastern USA

Sounds like fun… be sure to post lots of pics!

DBSAR
DBSAR's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: 02/11/2013 - 23:28
Posts: 6476
Location: Newfoundland, Canada

So i embarked on my 2600km trip for 4 weeks to the rugged east Canada. i packed all the cameras, gear, parts, tools, flashlights, batteries, lanterns, etc. to do lots of beamshot photos & comparisons, and to the testing of LiIon cells venting in a sealed flashlight, and out of flashlights. i plan to do videos of the testing and lost of photos. Smile

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

DBSAR
DBSAR's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: 02/11/2013 - 23:28
Posts: 6476
Location: Newfoundland, Canada

UPDATES: – July, 3,2016
Today we performed some LiIon 18650 cell testing to attempt to get them to vent. We used 50 ft of extension cord, and a wood block with two nails as contacts wired to the cord to hold the cell. ( these tests were not inside of a flashlight) On the other end upwind we applied 12 volts directly from a RV Deep Cycle battery, first positive polarity, then after 5 minutes with no venting, we reversed the polarity, then still no vent! one of the cells got so hot it began to melt the wrapper. I tested four different cells, a Sanyo, a Sony, a LG, and a cheap ultrafire. none of the cells vented with 12 volts from a large battery connected. then we decided to try 120 volt AC from a large inverter, still no venting! they all got EXTREMELY hot, and one even arced the 14 gauge wire on the 18650 cell top to the point of welding the wire to the cell, but still did not vent. Tomorrow will try heating the cell with a propane torch remotely to try to get them to vent.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

Speed4goal
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: 06/11/2016 - 13:03
Posts: 1199
Location: Bay, St. Louis Mississippi

Appreciate your test, maybe the new imr and inr cells are safer then people think. It seems ICR cells vent easily. Do you have access to a welding machine? There is a video on YouTube where a guy hooks up 2 cells to 40amps. And it took about 30 seconds for them to explode. I believe they were ICR not 100% positive though

2/9 Fox Co (2009-2015) Semper Fi 0311/0331 Rifleman/Machine Gunner
Blf has changed a lot since I've been here. Lots of snow flakes and easily offended over nothing. When the forum use to be great and people joked around and could take a joke. It's a forum it's not that serious. Let's make BLF great again!

MRsDNF
MRsDNF's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 hours 26 min ago
Joined: 12/22/2011 - 21:18
Posts: 13475
Location: A light beam away from the missus in the land of Aus.
Facepalm Smile

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

DBSAR
DBSAR's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: 02/11/2013 - 23:28
Posts: 6476
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Speed4goal wrote:
Appreciate your test, maybe the new imr and inr cells are safer then people think. It seems ICR cells vent easily. Do you have access to a welding machine? There is a video on YouTube where a guy hooks up 2 cells to 40amps. And it took about 30 seconds for them to explode. I believe they were ICR not 100% positive though

these four i tested wee older cells, 2 of them laptop pulls, one a sanyo with high IR, and a Ultrafire with the protection removed. They all got extremely hot, but none vented with the various overload of voltage and charging amps, or shorting.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

CalvinIS
CalvinIS's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 1 month ago
Joined: 11/29/2012 - 03:29
Posts: 987
Location: San Jose, CA

I'm not surprised. We tried to vent a lot of different brands of 18650s via overcharging and shorting. All of the fail safes went off. The only way I got something fun to happen was lighting them on fire in a cup of flammable liquid.

USA based seller of flashlights, batteries, and chargers.
Illumn Webstore
 /// Instagram /// BLF DEAL THREAD

freeme
freeme's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 37 min ago
Joined: 11/14/2013 - 22:00
Posts: 11259

Not sure why this 25R vent so quickly.

1thedeals.comyoutubeAstroluxNealsgadgetsolight

Angler
Angler's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 3 weeks ago
Joined: 07/21/2014 - 21:30
Posts: 691
Location: South Carolina

I thought that in order for the cells to vent with flame they needed to 1. be discharging and 2. reach a temperature during discharge to trigger thermal runaway.

Some information on battery university reads that li-ion with cobalt cathode becomes thermally unstable at temp of 302 Fahrenheit, and li-ion with manganese cathode become unstable at 482 Fahrenheit. Perhaps you can get a cell up to these temps with the torch you have planned. Big Smile

I think the best method to reach the desired result is a dead short with very heavy gauge wire or metal.

I believe many youtube attempts at creating vent with flame do not take into consideration that it is based on a chemical reaction which occurs under specific conditions.
I compare this (comically Big Smile ) to how a nuclear reactor will not reach meltdown condition by hitting reactor with hammer or shooting it. Thumbs Up

JakeDjanitor
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: 10/27/2015 - 09:00
Posts: 952
Location: North East USA

DBSAR wrote:
UPDATES: – July, 3,2016
Today we performed some LiIon 18650 cell testing to attempt to get them to vent. We used 50 ft of extension cord, and a wood block with two nails as contacts wired to the cord to hold the cell. ( these tests were not inside of a flashlight) On the other end upwind we applied 12 volts directly from a RV Deep Cycle battery, first positive polarity, then after 5 minutes with no venting, we reversed the polarity, then still no vent! one of the cells got so hot it began to melt the wrapper. I tested four different cells, a Sanyo, a Sony, a LG, and a cheap ultrafire. none of the cells vented with 12 volts from a large battery connected. then we decided to try 120 volt AC from a large inverter, still no venting! they all got EXTREMELY hot, and one even arced the 14 gauge wire on the 18650 cell top to the point of welding the wire to the cell, but still did not vent. Tomorrow will try heating the cell with a propane torch remotely to try to get them to vent.

Wow these must be grade A cells how much to buy them after they pass your torture test. I’d love to strap that ultrafire to my head in my armytek….. Facepalm Wink
DBSAR
DBSAR's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: 02/11/2013 - 23:28
Posts: 6476
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
CalvinIS wrote:

I’m not surprised. We tried to vent a lot of different brands of 18650s via overcharging and shorting. All of the fail safes went off. The only way I got something fun to happen was lighting them on fire in a cup of flammable liquid.

indeed. i will be testing to vent them later today using a blow torch remotely.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

hank
hank's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 13 min ago
Joined: 09/04/2011 - 21:52
Posts: 9639
Location: Berkeley, California

Crushing the 25R probably breaches the containment membrane that keeps the two reactant chemicals separate.

The eventual failure of that membrane from slow crystal growth that pokes a hole in it is the problem described as leading to failure with venting and generation of heat, and the chemicals used are flammable.

The eventual failure is described as happening from heat cycling and age, and as a problem with counterfeit cells or cells made in dirty conditions with metal fragments that cause a variety of problems inside the cell over time.

If you look up “accelerated aging” as a test procedure for li-ions, you’ll find various descriptions.

The membrane separator, if well made of the proper material, isn’t likely to fail quickly solely from external heat being applied, and if the liquid inside boils off through a proper vent releiving internal pressure, into an external fire, it will just burn off (though you probably don’t want to breathe downwind.

Part of the question is that there as yet no standards for producing li-ions, so you rarely know what you get or whether it has been tested. The brand name cells have gone through the accelerated aging/cycling tests and they’re careful about manufacturing to specification without corner-cutting, for that reason.

Have you weighed the cells before and after heating them, to determine whether they’ve lost any of the contents through proper controlled venting when heated?

DBSAR
DBSAR's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: 02/11/2013 - 23:28
Posts: 6476
Location: Newfoundland, Canada

UPDATES! – July,4th,2016
Successfully got some 18650’s to vent, by applying heat from a propane torch remotely. after two vents, i successfully got a cell to vent inside a flashlight! The light was a metal tactical design, but with a side clickie switch. it melted the switch, then vented enough to blow the driver, reflector, and LEDs out the front. I captured the tests on video. as soon as i return from my holidays i will upload the videos of the tests. I also tested a AAA Alkaline and a AA Zinc Carbon with the heat test.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

Westin1
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: 06/18/2016 - 20:58
Posts: 32
Location: Santa Clara, CA

MRsDNF wrote:
Pack the camera now so you dont forget it. Smile
We want lots and lots of pictures.

Lol!!
Westin1
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: 06/18/2016 - 20:58
Posts: 32
Location: Santa Clara, CA

DBSAR wrote:
UPDATES! – July,4th,2016
Successfully got some 18650’s to vent, by applying heat from a propane torch remotely. after two vents, i successfully got a cell to vent inside a flashlight! The light was a metal tactical design, but with a side clickie switch. it melted the switch, then vented enough to blow the driver, reflector, and LEDs out the front. I captured the tests on video. as soon as i return from my holidays i will upload the videos of the tests. I also tested a AAA Alkaline and a AA Zinc Carbon with the heat test.

NO! Post it now!! Big Smile

Pages