[2016-06-11] Crackdown on rudeness

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DB Custom
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Once the Maples have filed their grievances against the Oaks, will the unrest ever go away? Or is the entire forest now on edge, awaiting the dreaded hatchet, axe, and saw?

I’m not trying to be sarcastic, I’m asking honestly from pure curiosity as to how this all works. Immediately before it started, someone here was telling people to bugger off, now we’re being given advise on social etiquette by that same person. So yeah, I’m conflicted.

I had someone vividly curse me in an open thread for merely suggesting they read the rules, as they were being rude to a forum member, and that person still walks amongst us! See how that works? The rules are broken, bent, rearranged, but not necessarily enforced according to the rules, so where does that leave us?

And then, am I being “rude” for asking? I have no intention of being rude to anyone, certainly not unprovoked, but it’s true that I’m very forgetful and I’m getting grumpy with old age and increased incessant pain. I am a technical perfectionist. I firmly believe in the black and white of rules. Once solidly stated, they are the concrete of our roadways, the very foundation that we rely on in building our society. So, if the rule says “Rude people will have their accounts deleted.” then how does a 10 count, self-redacting-every-24-hours, “Rudeness Level” speak for that 1st solid golden rule? Does it enforce it? Or negate it?

Guess I really do need a vacation…

Rush “The Trees”

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TK is right, 5721 reads with 226 posts.

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Great idea. one of the many reasons i like BLF is because of the friendliness, and it needs to stay that way. Smile

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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atbglenn wrote:
Sharpie wrote:
… (Please don’t reply)
… (more rude points coming)

FWIW, the two quoted comments seem like they said things which were expected to be unwelcome, stated parenthetically that the response would probably be negative, and got posted anyway. So, if the meter went up afterward, it should come as no surprise. A conscious decision was made to be “rude”.

There are other ways to express frustration, but they don’t tend to feel as satisfying.

Anyway, it has only been a few days and the time just after a new feature gets people playing with it and exploring it. Like, adding a new bot on IRC almost always results in people playing “kick the bot” for a while. Poking it, prodding it, getting a feel for it. So posts like what I quoted are to be expected for a while. The feature’s actual value (or lack thereof) can’t be determined until after “kick the bot” gets old.

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The Tree's, I Love that song Dale!!

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ToyKeeper wrote:
Like, adding a new bot on IRC almost always results in people playing “kick the bot” for a while. Poking it, prodding it, getting a feel for it. So posts like what I quoted are to be expected for a while. The feature’s actual value (or lack thereof) can’t be determined until after “kick the bot” gets old.

Kick the bot, I love it
Somehow it evokes images of someone kicking the android logo LOL
<——- Not an apple fanboy, just a funny mental image

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If people start using the meter as a dislike of somebody’s else opinion, as a way to express their disagrement or antagonise other members this has the potential to do more harm than good.

For this reason i agree that it might be better if the rude meter is hidden from members.

The subjective and nebulous concept of rudeness might be a defeating pitfall here, also in the sens that some of the passive agressiveness, haughtiness, polite condescension or ambiguous trolling, while toxic, (much more so in my mind than strong beliefs or opinions) might pass totally through the net.

Good old light handed,collegial, privatly administered, human forum moderation was pretty efficient at spotting and dealing with pot stirring members, trolls and problem characters.

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I want sometimes to just vent my spleen

And the language required isn't clean

Discourse is splendid

'Till someone's offended

Can't a person just say what they mean ?

 

It seems everyone has their own views

Why , some people wear them as tattoos !

We all want to be heard

Sometimes boundaries are blurred

Can we walk in another man's shoes ?

 

Must our sentiments be so covert ?

Should we fear that our thoughts might subvert ?

It might be quite hard

To keep on our guard

In our passion , who knows what we'll blurt ?

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jacktheclipper wrote:

I want sometimes to just vent my spleen

And the language required isn't clean

Discourse is splendid

'Till someone's offended

Can't a person just say what they mean ?

 

It seems everyone has their own views

Why , some people wear them as tattoos !

We all want to be heard

Sometimes boundaries are blurred

Can we walk in another man's shoes ?

 

Must our sentiments be so covert ?

Should we fear that our thoughts might subvert ?

It might be quite hard

To keep on our guard

In our passion , who knows what we'll blurt ?

+1,000,000,000,000,000  wink

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Sharpie wrote:
Hmm, I’ve been getting one point per post, on this thread, recently.

Interesting.

I suppose I could start dishing them out too, but that would be petty.

Exactly an hour before you posted this, I suggested some might consider it rude for (one member) to dog about his points for days after he clearly violated some rules. I immediately got my first and only ‘rude’ point. So yea, I know where that came from. But it doesn’t bother me. It will be gone tomorrow. Yet he keeps racking them up by the fistful.

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JamesB wrote:
If people start using the meter as a dislike of somebody’s else opinion, as a way to express their disagrement or antagonise other members this has the potential to do more harm than good.

For this reason i agree that it might be better if the rude meter is hidden from members.

The subjective and nebulous concept of rudeness might be a defeating pitfall here, also in the sens that some of the passive agressiveness, haughtiness, polite condescension or ambiguous trolling, while toxic, (much more so in my mind than strong beliefs or opinions) might pass totally through the net.

Good old light handed,collegial, privatly administered, human forum moderation was pretty efficient at spotting and dealing with pot stirring members, trolls and problem characters.


You needn’t worry about the ‘dislike’ hits. SB has already noted that such is abuse of the system, and will be handled. So, those who click RUDE! for no good reason may find themselves dis-membered, I mean un-membered, I mean, not a BLF member any more. Silly
Also, this is still a self-moderated forum. The new RUDE! button is mostly meant to be used as a gentle reminder, and secondly a way for sb to track consistently rude behavior and deal with it, since he isn’t here all the time and can’t simply take the time to read every post. And it is hidden, sorta. You are the only one (other than sb himself) who can see your meter.

The Cycle of Goodness: “No one prospers without rendering benefit to others”
- The YKK Philosophy

JamesB
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DavidEF wrote:
And it is hidden, sorta. You are the only one (other than sb himself) who can see your meter.

I’m aware of that, i meant hidden from the member himself, to avoid additional drama.

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JamesB wrote:
DavidEF wrote:
And it is hidden, sorta. You are the only one (other than sb himself) who can see your meter.

I’m aware of that, i meant hidden from the member himself, to avoid additional drama.


OK. That has been suggested by others as well. But, I think it would hinder one of the purposes of the meter – to help us members see when we might need to tone things down a bit.

The Cycle of Goodness: “No one prospers without rendering benefit to others”
- The YKK Philosophy

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Judging by this thread it just seems to antagonise people even more.

SawMaster
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I ain’t smart but I like this new gadget just as it is. Adding a “nice” button will just turn this place into a popularity contest instead of a flashlight forum.

I control my keyboard and I have no right to be rude to you. I am responsible for what I type. You are responsible for what you type no matter what I’ve posted before that, and vice-versa. If you can’t control yourself then log off until you can, it is that easy to do.

I noticed that one particular member who was rude, crude, abrasive, spiteful, arrogant, and abusive to anybody who disagreed with them suddenly cleaned up their act when the “rude” button was implemented. Their posts are much more restrained now and the threads they are involved in are now a lot more pleasant. I was not alone in highly disliking this person- several people clearly felt as I did. I figured that this person was about to see themselves banned LOL I think they saw that too, so they changed for the better, and if they can make that huge of a change then anyone can. Had they not done this I’d have used the button as intended on them.

Much calmness has returned as if by magic. It’s not universal here but whatever. I haven’t felt the need to hit “rude” yet and I hope I don’t have to, but just it’s presence has chased away a lot of the previous rudeness so it is working as intended and doesn’t need any ‘fixing’.

Good Job SB Thumbs Up
Phil

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SawMaster wrote:
I ain’t smart but I like this new gadget just as it is. Adding a “nice” button will just turn this place into a popularity contest instead of a flashlight forum.

I agree, i sometimes want a thanks button, but then getting thanks points becomes a game Sad

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JamesB wrote:
Judging by this thread it just seems to antagonise people even more.

Well, it is my opinion (and only that) that anybody who feels threatened by the existence of the RUDE! button and/or meter, either doesn’t understand sb’s intent, or has a less-than-honorable intent himself. In the first case, that person should read the OP again, as well as the BLF Rules. If that doesn’t help, they can PM sb for better details, I’m sure. One thing to remember is that this forum is different from others that are more heavy handed in their moderation. I don’t think sb will be going on any member-deleting joyrides through BLF. It’s not what he does.

In the case of someone who has no intention of following the rules, they are probably right to feel threatened, because the RUDE! button can and will be used against them as needed. And, since sb can track all the RUDE! button activity, it helps him to catch situations that he might have otherwise missed. I see that as a good thing.

I also believe TK is right about the psychological effect of the ‘new’ tool. I’m expecting things to settle down in a while. It might take longer for some than others. But I think it will all be okay in a week or two for most.

The Cycle of Goodness: “No one prospers without rendering benefit to others”
- The YKK Philosophy

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DavidEF, it seems we don’t understand each other.

I never questioned the rude button, i only have praise for the rude button, the meter on the other hand just seems to add conflict:

1) For the members who are Consciously rude or trolling , the button is enough of a deterent.

2) For the members who are not aware of their perceived rudeness, if they meter doesn’t reach the level at wich our respected admin will step in, that mean that they are not considered rude by the majority and they will feel (like has been reported in this thread) shamed for their opinions or targeted by other members.

I can’t find any merit to the rudeness meter in any circumstance.

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Yea, one problem I see is that you can no longer strongly disagree with someone. If you do, the person with whom you are disagreeing with and whoever shares their opinion are likely to "Rude" you. So I suggest going with the flow or risk the potential ill received side affects.

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JamesB wrote:
DavidEF, it seems we don’t understand each other.

I never questioned the rude button, i only have praise for the rude button, the meter on the other hand just seems to add conflict:

1) For the members who are Consciously rude or trolling , the button is enough of a deterent.

2) For the members who are not aware of their perceived rudeness, if they meter doesn’t reach the level at wich our respected admin will step in, that mean that they are not considered rude by the majority and they will feel (like has been reported in this thread) shamed for their opinions or targeted by other members.

I can’t find any merit to the rudeness meter in any circumstance.


OK, hopefully I’m understanding you better now. Your #2 situation is the part that I think will settle down once people are accustomed to the button and the meter being there. Remember that sb is tracking the use of the button and abuses will be handled. With that in mind, I would never worry about my rudeness meter. If I see it bump up, I may look back at some of my recent posts. I think that’s the main purpose of it being there. But, unless I know I’ve been rude, I have no reason to feel bad. Only if I hear from sb will I be worried.

The Cycle of Goodness: “No one prospers without rendering benefit to others”
- The YKK Philosophy

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jhalb wrote:

Yea, one problem I see is that you can no longer strongly disagree with someone. If you do, the person with whom you are disagreeing with and whoever shares their opinion are likely to “Rude” you. So I suggest going with the flow or risk the potential ill received side affects.


If someone hits the RUDE! button on me just because they disagree with me, they are putting themselves in danger with sb for abuse. I’m fine with that. Wink

The Cycle of Goodness: “No one prospers without rendering benefit to others”
- The YKK Philosophy

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It was actually the other way around, read it again.tongue-out

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jhalb wrote:

Yea, one problem I see is that you can no longer strongly disagree with someone. If you do, the person with whom you are disagreeing with and whoever shares their opinion are likely to “Rude” you. So I suggest going with the flow or risk the potential ill received side affects.


“Sorry, but I strongly disagree with you” then go on to say why, using no name calling, abuse, rudeness or offensive language.
Easy isn’t it Wink

A few “rude” scores against you is nothing, and will disappear in time.

This whole thread brings a couple of sayings to my mind,

A storm in a tea cup
A mountain out of a molehill

Lighten up and party on

Cheers David

Nothing to see here folks, move along...

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YaHoooo!!!wink

Sorry, had to Rude you for that...tongue-out

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SawMaster wrote:

I noticed that one particular member who was rude, crude, abrasive, spiteful, arrogant, and abusive to anybody who disagreed with them suddenly cleaned up their act when the “rude” button was implemented. Their posts are much more restrained now and the threads they are involved in are now a lot more pleasant.

Good Job SB Thumbs Up
Phil

Yes, I agree with this observation, and the “rude” button is working. It may not be perfect, but it’s an effective first step.

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DavidEF wrote:
If someone hits the RUDE! button on me just because they disagree with me, they are putting themselves in danger with sb for abuse. I’m fine with that. Wink

Somewhat i doubt SB will review each and every rude point for the same reason he doesn’t read the forum, and if someone takes offense and goes to SB with a rude point he consider isn’t deserved or malicious that would be a sad loss of time and energy considering the giver of the point might feel righteous given the subjective nature of rudeness i wrote about earlier, i can’t see SB wasting his time with this pointless arguing, and entering minute phylosophical arguments to decide where to put the blame.

And this trouble would only be created by the rude meter wich i still can’t find any merit to.

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jhalb wrote:

Yea, one problem I see is that you can no longer strongly disagree with someone. If you do, the person with whom you are disagreeing with and whoever shares their opinion are likely to “Rude” you. So I suggest going with the flow or risk the potential ill received side affects.

You can still disagree every bit as strongly a before, but you’ll have to be focused on debating the ideas and not the person unless you want to risk being “ruded”. I’ve been in courtrooms listening to some lawyers who could debase the Pope without being directly rude or abusive. It’s something of an art which I wish I were good at. The only ones at risk here are those intentionally being rude and those too stupid to understand the value of eloquence and respect for others in a civil and public setting. 98% of us are safe, the remaining 2% won’t last long, and that is pretty darn good if you ask me.

Debate the message, not the messenger Wink
Phil

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Here here!

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One thing the new feature might do is pop a few “judgy bubbles”… and this might be pretty unpleasant for anyone whose bubble gets poked.

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/124157118906/the-judgy-bubble

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If you find yourself checking the meter I wouldn’t be alarmed, it’s new, so I think it’s normal to be curious, I certainly am. If you see points on a regular basis then maybe there’s an issue. If you don’t then after awhile you’ll probably stop looking at it. It’s not an issue to post about what happens in the news. The problem comes from voicing things that are against the rules. if you feel this is an infringement then it’s more than likely that what you wanted to say shouldn’t be said here. I think a like button unnecessary. It should be assumed that we are already nice. If you want to thank someone especially then just post or pm your gratitude, no need to do it all the time but it will get noticed. I should do more of this myself as this place is loaded with really great people. I think we should keep the rudeness button well past the time it loses interest as only then will we begin to see the normal affect it will have. I think the only response to an uptick should be “Oops, sorry folks” and no more. Let it go and it will go away, keep bringing it up and it won’t.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

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