Will the 21-70 Battery (a.k.a. 21700) Replace 18650?

195 posts / 0 new
Last post
SubLGT
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 23 min ago
Joined: 12/08/2014 - 12:42
Posts: 288
Location: Idaho, USA

cncyana wrote:
https://www.imrbatteries.com/sanyo-ncr20700a-3100mah-30a-flat-top-battery/

Sanyo NCR20700A: 3100mAh, 30A, $10/unit
Sanyo NCR20700B: 4000mAh, 15A, $10/unit

How much are Samsung 21700 cells?

SubLGT
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 23 min ago
Joined: 12/08/2014 - 12:42
Posts: 288
Location: Idaho, USA

Some info about the BMZ 21700 cell:

http://www.bike-eu.com/sales-trends/nieuws/2016/9/bmz-discloses-more-on-...

Excerpt:

“……..What it all boils down to is that BMZ developed what it calls ‘giga-cells’. They are named 3Tron and come in the 21700 format; 21mm diameter and 70mm height which is a lot bigger compared to the nowadays commonly used 18650 cells. The new 21700 cells offer, “60 percent more capacity while being able to use 400% more discharge current at the same time,” claims Sven Bauer, Managing Director of BMZ GmbH.

Thanks to a big increase in active cell material as well as the use of nickel-manganese-cobalt oxide, stronger conductors and high-quality materials, 3Tron increases the energy yield by 50 percent. The lower internal resistance produces 68 percent more output.

In producing the super cell, BMZ cooperates with the world’s leading cell manufacturer Sony. This company’s manufacturing expertise comes with the annual production of more than 300 million cells, says BMZ……..”

leaftye
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 07/25/2012 - 17:43
Posts: 4278
Location: San Diego, CA

Those are still too expensive, but pretty good when considering that they just became available. Remember how expensive the NCR18650B was a few years ago? It was insane, but now they go for about 1/3rd of that. Hopefully these do the same and end up costing around $3, which I think is entirely possible with cells coming out of Tesla’s Gigafactory’s. BMZ calls their battery factor a gigafactory too, but apparently is unaffiliated with Tesla. I think their prices will be good, but it’ll be hard to match the advantages of Tesla’s vertically integrated business. Competition is good though, and should drive up manufacturing efficiency and battery capacity.

The low mode should be lower.

poster
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 2 months ago
Joined: 07/29/2014 - 02:28
Posts: 78

ok applying my logic
the 21700 will become a household name like AA and aaa (yuck i hate aaa)
i think the general audience has matured to the point they are ready for a paradigm shift in there lives

we Here and in the Vaping world have held onto something for too long and it is time what we know and care about be taken away from us (can you handle that)

up to this point most consumers have never heard of an 18650 or 14500 because it was never meant for them 18650 have been around since 1991
it would be like giving a Light Saber to Jar Jar Binks
but the world is smarter and the chargers are better or the 21700 will be too big to leave in a pants pocket with loose change

i hope to see the 21700 in stores even Kmart soon
i am looking for the _’‘That’s one small step for mankind, one giant leap for mankind.” _

i have had fun for years ripping apart things for the*_ “Precious bounty” even did a Creative MuVo2 for the 4gb Microdrive _*
but now i only buy NEW TOP OF THE LINE Sanyo/Panasonic NCR18650B and at one point i paid $2,82 each for 50 (now they are hard to find at $4)

but i am trying to say i think 21700 will be come a household word sorry for my rant

SubLGT
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 23 min ago
Joined: 12/08/2014 - 12:42
Posts: 288
Location: Idaho, USA

The Chinese company Lishen (Tianjin Lishen Battery Joint Stock Co., Ltd.) is getting into 21700 manufacturing.

Their VP is giving a presentation at the upcoming International Battery Seminar in Florida

Quote:
Due to the relatively low production costs, cylindrical cell is widely used in xEV. However, the requirements of capacity and power for cylindrical cell are higher and higher. Under this background, 21700 cell with 21mm diameter and 70mm height is designed and produced. As one of the largest battery manufacturer around the world, Tianjin Lishen Battery Joint-Stock Co. Ltd. pushes a series of 21700 cylindrical cells, including high capacity cell for EV, middle power cell for PHEV, high power cell for HEV and 48V start-stop, and so forth. In this presentation, we will give detailed introductions to our production classification, technique Improvement, performance exhibition and the roadmap.work.

http://www.internationalbatteryseminar.com/battery-manufacturing/

Enderman
Enderman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 23 hours ago
Joined: 11/03/2016 - 22:42
Posts: 4283
Location: Vancouver, Canada
poster wrote:
ok applying my logic the 21700 will become a household name like AA and aaa (yuck i hate aaa) i think the general audience has matured to the point they are ready for a paradigm shift in there lives

Outside of the small group of flashlight enthusiasts, almost nobody has ever heard “18650” and I would be willing to bet about 0.0000001% of the world population knows what it is.
Now you think people will magically need something 10000x less common than an 18650??

Sorry, but no, this is never going to become as common as alkaline batteries. Even 18650 will never become as common as alkalines.
Ask your grandparents what an AA is and they will know, but not 18650 or 26650.

I think all the people in this thread need to get real and actually see what a huge minority they are and how rare 18650s are outside of their flashlight friends group.

HKJ
HKJ's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 10 hours ago
Joined: 05/24/2011 - 12:23
Posts: 7448
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Enderman wrote:
Even 18650 will never become as common as alkalines.

18650 is very common, maybe as common as alkaline.
But because they are usual used in battery pack nobody knows they are using them.

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

keithd
keithd's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 1 week ago
Joined: 04/12/2014 - 00:35
Posts: 803

Well, so much for standardization.

Tesla’s got 20700 cells, now this Euro factory is making 21700s.

And isn’t the 3Tron name already copyrighted by one of our own forum members?

But riddle me this – why not make a better 26650, a format that already exists? If you take the 20700’s specs, scale it up to 26650, you’d have even more energy per cell.

Enderman
Enderman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 23 hours ago
Joined: 11/03/2016 - 22:42
Posts: 4283
Location: Vancouver, Canada

HKJ wrote:

18650 is very common, maybe as common as alkaline.
But because they are usual used in battery pack nobody knows they are using them.

No, not even close.
Even considering the still small amount of people that use rechargeable power tools.

Stuff like phones and laptops and tablets do not use 18650s either.

hank
hank's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 3 days ago
Joined: 09/04/2011 - 21:52
Posts: 9599
Location: Berkeley, California

I read that the 18650 li-ion size is the same as the 4/3AF NiMH cell originally used in laptop computers.

teacher
teacher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 02/23/2016 - 19:04
Posts: 9596
Location: NE & SW Alabama

keithd wrote:
Well, so much for standardization.

Tesla’s got 20700 cells, now this Euro factory is making 21700s.

As far as I know, as it says in the OP; the Tesla’s are 21-70, 2170, or 21700…. whatever they are to be called. Thumbs Up

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

Enderman
Enderman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 23 hours ago
Joined: 11/03/2016 - 22:42
Posts: 4283
Location: Vancouver, Canada

hank wrote:
I read that the 18650 li-ion size is the same as the 4/3AF NiMH cell originally used in laptop computers.

This is 2017.
All electronics devices use flat cells.
Anything still using round is outdated and obsolete.
teacher
teacher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 02/23/2016 - 19:04
Posts: 9596
Location: NE & SW Alabama

Enderman wrote:
hank wrote:
I read that the 18650 li-ion size is the same as the 4/3AF NiMH cell originally used in laptop computers.

This is 2017.
All electronics devices use flat cells.
Anything still using round is outdated and obsolete.
That is probably the reason ‘hank’ said… “originally used in laptop computers.”

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

Enderman
Enderman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 23 hours ago
Joined: 11/03/2016 - 22:42
Posts: 4283
Location: Vancouver, Canada

teacher wrote:
That is probably the reason ‘hank’ said… “originally used in laptop computers.”

Yes and that’s the reason I pointed out that it is 2017 now and 18650 is irrelevant in modern electronics.
texas shooter
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 11 min ago
Joined: 08/26/2012 - 02:14
Posts: 1821
Location: Texas

keithd wrote:
Well, so much for standardization.

Tesla’s got 20700 cells, now this Euro factory is making 21700s.

And isn’t the 3Tron name already copyrighted by one of our own forum members?

But riddle me this – why not make a better 26650, a format that already exists? If you take the 20700’s specs, scale it up to 26650, you’d have even more energy per cell.

Two answers. The engineers wanted this size. Nobody but the Chinese in the last 5 years have made 26650’s. On 20700/21700 standardization 20700 list a 20.3 mm diameter, 21700 list a 21 mm diameter, light junkie’s aren’t even going to notice the difference.

teacher
teacher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 02/23/2016 - 19:04
Posts: 9596
Location: NE & SW Alabama
Enderman wrote:
hank wrote:
I read that the 18650 li-ion size is the same as the 4/3AF NiMH cell originally used in laptop computers.

This is 2017.
All electronics devices use flat cells.
Anything still using round is outdated and obsolete.

Enderman wrote:
teacher wrote:
That is probably the reason ‘hank’ said… “originally used in laptop computers.”

Yes and that’s the reason I pointed out that it is 2017 now and 18650 is irrelevant in modern electronics.
Yes and the point is ‘hank’ was not asking about “modern electronics”.

He said, and I quote……. “I read that the 18650 li-ion size is the same as the 4/3AF NiMH cell originally used in laptop computers.”

He never mentioned a word about “modern electronics”. And I would also bet he knows it is 2017………. Wink

And by the way, the 18650 is very relevant to what he posted.

What say ye???
Is it the same or not???

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

teacher
teacher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 02/23/2016 - 19:04
Posts: 9596
Location: NE & SW Alabama
HKJ wrote:
Enderman wrote:
Even 18650 will never become as common as alkalines.

18650 is very common, maybe as common as alkaline.
But because they are usual used in battery pack nobody knows they are using them.

Hmmmm, I never really thought about it that way; but that makes perfect sense HKJ!! Thumbs Up

I literally cannot think of one person I know who does not have at least one cordless tool.
And many, myself included; have multiples.

I think you are spot on……….. Smile

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

SubLGT
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 23 min ago
Joined: 12/08/2014 - 12:42
Posts: 288
Location: Idaho, USA

Here is a very interesting SDLE marketing report summary (as of Sep 2016) regarding the replacement of the 18650 format by 20650, 27000, and 21700. It’s a quick read and worth looking at. Lots of charts and graphics. Learned that LG will introduce a 21700 in Q2 2017.

http://www.emove360.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/1120evtl-LIB-18650-Cells-New-Replacement-Cylindrical-Cell-Sizes-20650-20700-21700-Report-ver-3-presentation-for-conferences.pdf

hank
hank's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 3 days ago
Joined: 09/04/2011 - 21:52
Posts: 9599
Location: Berkeley, California

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/14/business/energy-environment/californi...

Quote:

After racing for months, engineers here in California have brought three energy-storage sites close to completion to begin serving the Southern California electric grid within the next month. They are made up of thousands of oversize versions of the lithium-ion batteries now widely used in smartphones, laptop computers and other digital devices.

Enderman
Enderman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 23 hours ago
Joined: 11/03/2016 - 22:42
Posts: 4283
Location: Vancouver, Canada

teacher wrote:
Yes and the point is ‘hank’ was not asking about “modern electronics”.

He said, and I quote……. “I read that the 18650 li-ion size is the same as the 4/3AF NiMH cell originally used in laptop computers.”

He never mentioned a word about “modern electronics”. And I would also bet he knows it is 2017………. Wink

And by the way, the 18650 is very relevant to what he posted.

What say ye???
Is it the same or not???

This entire topic is about 20700 replacing 18650 which is why I clarified that it is 2017 and the fact that 18650s in laptops form the past is now irrelevant.
Therefore, it does not matter that 18650s used to be used in electronics because they are not today and will not be “replaced” by 20700.
Did you not read the topic title??

teacher
teacher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 02/23/2016 - 19:04
Posts: 9596
Location: NE & SW Alabama

Enderman wrote:
teacher wrote:
Yes and the point is ‘hank’ was not asking about “modern electronics”.

He said, and I quote……. “I read that the 18650 li-ion size is the same as the 4/3AF NiMH cell originally used in laptop computers.”

He never mentioned a word about “modern electronics”. And I would also bet he knows it is 2017………. Wink

And by the way, the 18650 is very relevant to what he posted.

What say ye???
Is it the same or not???

This entire topic is about 20700 replacing 18650 which is why I clarified that it is 2017 and the fact that 18650s in laptops form the past is now irrelevant.
Therefore, it does not matter that 18650s used to be used in electronics because they are not today and will not be “replaced” by 20700.
Did you not read the topic title??

Sure I am aware & did read the topic title…. Facepalm
I guess this means you have no answer to what ‘hank’ posted?? You did read & comprehend that didn’t you??
So be it, maybe some informed person will chime in to either verify or contradict what ‘hank’ wrote.
For us inquiring minds that would like to know that is. Wink

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

Enderman
Enderman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 23 hours ago
Joined: 11/03/2016 - 22:42
Posts: 4283
Location: Vancouver, Canada
teacher wrote:
Sure I am aware & did read the topic title…. Facepalm I guess this means you have no answer to what ‘hank’ posted?? You did read & comprehend that didn’t you?? So be it, maybe some informed person will chime in to either verify or contradict what ‘hank’ wrote. For us inquiring minds that would like to know that is. Wink

My point is that it is irrelevant to making the 20700 more widely adopted because since 18650 is no longer used there then it cannot be replaced.
The point was not to verify or contradict anything. The point was also not to invite other people to have a useless argument with me when I was replying to a different person that was not you (which is why I used the quote button)
It would be great if you would not jump into random conversations for the purpouse of disrupting a thread and starting arguments…
Thanks.

teacher
teacher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 02/23/2016 - 19:04
Posts: 9596
Location: NE & SW Alabama
Enderman wrote:
teacher wrote:
Sure I am aware & did read the topic title…. Facepalm I guess this means you have no answer to what ‘hank’ posted?? You did read & comprehend that didn’t you?? So be it, maybe some informed person will chime in to either verify or contradict what ‘hank’ wrote. For us inquiring minds that would like to know that is. Wink

My point is that it is irrelevant to making the 20700 more widely adopted because since 18650 is no longer used there then it cannot be replaced.
The point was not to verify or contradict anything. The point was also not to invite other people to have a useless argument with me when I was replying to a different person that was not you (which is why I used the quote button)
It would be great if you would not jump into random conversations for the purpouse of disrupting a thread and starting arguments…
Thanks.

It would be good if you practiced what you preached also about arguing & disrupting threads. You seem to be pretty good at it yourself. Thumbs Up Seems to me you might even enjoy it.

What I read was a man stated, (in a way that ‘to me’ seemed to ask a question); that he had read that the 18650 li-ion size is the same as the 4/3AF NiMH cell originally used in laptop computers.

Nothing more nothing less….. from what I read you did not and have not addressed that in any way.

  • You informed us it was 2017
  • You said all electronics devices use flat cells
  • You state anything still using round is outdated and obsolete

Well the first one is right, it is 2017.

As far as the next two, I think that is a stretch.
It seems to me it would depend on what you considered an “electronic device” whether those two statements are valid or not.

Thank you also………..

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

Enderman
Enderman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 23 hours ago
Joined: 11/03/2016 - 22:42
Posts: 4283
Location: Vancouver, Canada

teacher wrote:

What I read was a man stated, (in a way that ‘to me’ seemed to ask a question); that he had read that the 18650 li-ion size is the same as the 4/3AF NiMH cell originally used in laptop computers.

Nothing more nothing less….. from what I read you did not and have not addressed that in any way.


My first post (above his) was “Stuff like phones and laptops and tablets do not use 18650s either.”
And then he replied with his post, “I read that the 18650 li-ion size is the same as the 4/3AF NiMH cell originally used in laptop computers.” which I assumed was a reply to mine.
In which case I explained why it does not matter what they used to use, since 20700 (the topic of this thread) would not replace flat cells in those devices.

In this exchange, nowhere did anyone ask you to make a snarky comment such as “That is probably the reason ‘hank’ said… “originally used in laptop computers.”” when the conversation didn’t involve you at all.

Jerommel
Jerommel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 6 months ago
Joined: 01/04/2014 - 13:18
Posts: 6380
Location: the Hague, Netherlands

Uhm..yeah, well, i hope 21700 will be available soon, with more than 5000mAh and for an affordable price.
It will replace the 3xAAA carriers. Wink (the taller ones)

teacher
teacher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 02/23/2016 - 19:04
Posts: 9596
Location: NE & SW Alabama

Enderman wrote:
teacher wrote:

What I read was a man stated, (in a way that ‘to me’ seemed to ask a question); that he had read that the 18650 li-ion size is the same as the 4/3AF NiMH cell originally used in laptop computers.

Nothing more nothing less….. from what I read you did not and have not addressed that in any way.


My first post (above his) was “Stuff like phones and laptops and tablets do not use 18650s either.”
And then he replied with his post, “I read that the 18650 li-ion size is the same as the 4/3AF NiMH cell originally used in laptop computers.” which I assumed was a reply to mine.
In which case I explained why it does not matter what they used to use, since 20700 (the topic of this thread) would not replace flat cells in those devices.

In this exchange, nowhere did anyone ask you to make a snarky comment such as “That is probably the reason ‘hank’ said… “originally used in laptop computers.”” when the conversation didn’t involve you at all.

OK. I assumed one thing. You said you assumed another. We both probably know the saying about “assume”.

I would not rate my comment as “snarky” either. Actually it was somewhat bland. Wink

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

hank
hank's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 3 days ago
Joined: 09/04/2011 - 21:52
Posts: 9599
Location: Berkeley, California
Quote:
which I assumed was a reply to mine.

Nope, not about you at all. Just noted as a reminder a lot of tech is designed so as to be backward compatible.

Some prior mention of cell sizes from a thread I started is at: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/36165

I’m hoping we’ll see adapters for battery tubes something like SLR companies have made, to let any lens work on any company’s camera body.

One of the delights of the original Arc LS flashlights was being able to get battery tubes to use the flashlight heads with RCR2, CR123, and 2xAA.

snakebite
snakebite's picture
Offline
Last seen: 22 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 11/20/2013 - 20:21
Posts: 2065
Location: dayton oh

kmart will be long gone before 21700 are out there in any great numbers.
most folks around me already have 18650 and even their kids use them now.
as for vaping lots of lipo powered mods out there.
i have a vicious ant and a sigelei here that use them.expect them to become much more common.
genie is out of the bottle already as walmart carries 18650 and flashlights that use them.
adapting to 21700 if they become cheap and common will be a simple production change too.
i doubt 18650 will go away anytime soon with all the power tool mfrs heavily invested in the format.

poster wrote:
ok applying my logic
the 21700 will become a household name like AA and aaa (yuck i hate aaa)

we Here and in the Vaping world have held onto something for too long and it is time what we know and care about be taken away from us (can you handle that

i hope to see the 21700 in stores even Kmart soon

but i am trying to say i think 21700 will be come a household word sorry for my rant

StandardBattery
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 10 months ago
Joined: 11/02/2016 - 08:51
Posts: 168
Location: MA, USA

I’m with the other posters that want to see 21700 batteries with >= 5Ah capacity, and I think the markets will take notice.

I’m pretty sure 18650 will be around for quite some time, and I sure hope I’m right. I’m not sure the current 26650 size will survive.

Right now I just want high capacity 21700 cells that I can get my hands on and I’ll enjoy the ride.

SubLGT
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 23 min ago
Joined: 12/08/2014 - 12:42
Posts: 288
Location: Idaho, USA
StandardBattery wrote:
I’m with the other posters that want to see 21700 batteries with >= 5Ah capacity, and I think the markets will take notice…

We may see a 5300mAh cell (INR21700-53G ?) from Samsung by 2020, or earlier.

Pages