Will the 21-70 Battery (a.k.a. 21700) Replace 18650?

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SubLGT
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The 20650 battery from LG is now available, at least in the USA.

LG HG6, 30A, 3000mAh

https://www.imrbatteries.com/lg-hg6-20650-3000mah-30a-battery/

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Yeah I noticed that, no 3rd party tests or easily searchable datasheets for them yet so I wonder how it compares to the Sanyo cells, probably has better discharge properties though considering most Sanyo cells are budget cells with meh performance and high discharge LG cells are generally pretty good. Maybe I can squeeze an amp or two more out of them into a Storm of Ra, at least until the 30Ts come out. Not that there is any reason to do that, OK yeah I may have a problem with building lights that push high discharge battery tech, but all these new cells have gotten me excited to see what crazy pocket nukes can be built, pushing hand warmers that also happen to emit light to the limit!

Co-owner/Engineer at STO Flashlights.

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Waited more than 3 weeks for FT to ship the INR21700-48G. So I cancelled the buy.
Then I found it in a small brick-and-mortar vape shop in Hilversum, 12 ml from home.
And here it is, and going into the Warsun whose body I reamed to 21.4mm.

You are a flashaholic if you are forced to come out of the closet, to make room for more flashlights.

SubLGT
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SubLGT wrote:
The 20650 battery from LG is now available, at least in the USA.

LG HG6, 30A, 3000mAh

https://www.imrbatteries.com/lg-hg6-20650-3000mah-30a-battery/

There is also a Sanyo NCR20650A available. 30A and 3100mAh.

https://www.imrbatteries.com/sanyo-ncr20650a-3100mah-30a-battery/?mc_cid...

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I might have built the first dedicated 21700 flashlight. The Samsung 48G works great!

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/55767

SubLGT
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SubLGT wrote:
The 20650 battery from LG is now available, at least in the USA.

LG HG6, 30A, 3000mAh

https://www.imrbatteries.com/lg-hg6-20650-3000mah-30a-battery/

Here is a test of the HG6, by Mooch:

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/bench-test-results-lg-hg...

Quote:
In my testing it easily outperforms the excellent Sony VTC5A and runs cooler than the LG HB6. It is a great performing true 30A cell.

Against the other 20mm diameter cells it also does well. Down to 3.2V the HG6 equals or beats by a little the Sanyo NCR20650A or iJoy 5-leg 20700. The Sanyo NCR20700A still beats all of them, but not by a lot.

SubLGT
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The new 21700 Samsung 40T cell has been tested by Mooch:
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threads/bench-test-results-samsung-40t...…a-great-30a-3900mah-battery-better-than-ncr20700a.842165/

Quote:
…This test was done only as a preview of a cell that should be available by the middle of 2018….This is a fantastic performing true 30A cell that easily beats the Sanyo NCR20700A at both high and low discharge current levels. At moderate power levels this Samsung 40T even beats the incredible Samsung 30T, hitting harder for almost the entire discharge down to 3.2V and for a lot longer too….This is a classic tradeoff, the 30T’s higher performance and current rating versus the 40T’s higher capacity…This cell delivered 3962mAh and 3985mAh in my capacity tests. Judging by Samsung’s “40T” designation for it I am sure its nominal/typical capacity rating will be 4000mAh…
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Looks good. Smile

SubLGT
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Supposedly in the Samsung pipeline is a “mid-power” (10-15A ??) INR21700-53G cell, with 5300mAh capacity.

The INR21700-40T should be very popular for power tool battery packs. But how many non-custom flashlights on the market need a 30A battery?

The INR21700-48G is being used by Luna Cycle in a battery pack for one of their e-bikes.

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been using the inr21700-30t in my versapak builds.
so far these are unbeatable in the high demand tools.
edit
30t!

SubLGT
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snakebite wrote:
been using the inr21700-33j …

33J ? Or 33G ?

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30t

SubLGT wrote:
snakebite wrote:
been using the inr21700-33j …

33J ? Or 33G ?

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Fasttech just listed a BAsen 21700 at 7,58$ :

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pony wrote:
I don’t understand why does Tesla use multiple cells stacked together and not create one big cell, like Apple does. No empty space, higher capacity, less issues to worry about, a lot of advantages…

Probably economy of scale. To get “volume pricing” on 1M units, a car that takes 500 more-or-less standard cells means getting there in 2,000 cars, whereas with a car that takes, say, 5 Übercells, you’d need to sell 200,000 cars.

(Dunno what Apple cells you’re referring to, so have to use my imagination…)

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pony wrote:
I don’t understand why does Tesla use multiple cells stacked together and not create one big cell, like Apple does. No empty space, higher capacity, less issues to worry about, a lot of advantages…

It is not merely a matter of pushing all the empty space out. That would be nice if it is only a backup storage unit.
It has to be charged and discharged often. That involves (a lot of) heat. So there has to be space, for cooling.

The “old” packs are air-cooled, The newest ones are liquid cooled.

You are a flashaholic if you are forced to come out of the closet, to make room for more flashlights.

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pony wrote:
I don’t understand why does Tesla use multiple cells stacked together and not create one big cell, like Apple does. No empty space, higher capacity, less issues to worry about, a lot of advantages…

I’m not very familiar with Apple’s electric car, but I haven’t seen anything indicating they’ll be using one big cell instead of many cells like everyone else.

The low mode should be lower.

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I have had several macbook pro batteries in my hand and also the newer, glued-in variant. The ones I have seen dissected have multiple cells (battery packs) inside the battery. I am not referring to the new, split battery cell design in general, but the content inside the battery. The charge controller is typically on the motherboard and there is another chip on or near the connector where all the temp sensors are (Macbooks behave differently depending on whether battery is plugged in or not).
One of my older Macbook Pros had a “pregnant” battery (bulged out/non-charging) and actually fell apart. There were 3 packs inside, glued together with what I believe was Kapton tape. The individual packs looked like LiPo packs.

edit: the iPhone X battery also seems to have multiple cells
https://www.ifixit.com/Store/iPhone/iPhone-X-Replacement-Battery/IF377-0...
From an engineering standpoint it would be easier to protect future design changes with a flexible, multi-cell battery rather than a 1-battery pack that would have to be re-designed as well. plus all the efficiency/cooling/security aspects mentioned earlier. Imagine a huge, single cell blowing during a crash vs. very few cells in a multi-cell pack.

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Phones and high end laptops use LiPO packs instead of cylindrical lithium ion cells.
They are the same thing just in a different shape.
Why tesla uses individual cells instead of lipo packs I’m not sure, it may have to do with cooling since they have to run fluid in between all the cells.

Also one other difference I’ve noticed between cylindrical and lipo cells is that you pretty much never see a cylindrical cell bloat up.
This probably has to do with the fact that it is wrapped in a spiral and sort of holds itself together tightly inside a metal housing.

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pony wrote:
I don’t understand why does Tesla use multiple cells stacked together and not create one big cell, like Apple does. No empty space, higher capacity, less issues to worry about, a lot of advantages…

Just about every other EV manufacturer uses prismatic cells stacked next to each other.

Telsa have pretty much gone their own route for much of the powetrain.

Nissan use a chemistry that is not prone to thermal runaway. LEAF relies on convection cooling and software ramp-downs to keep the battery in safe operating zones. It is less expensive but not as energy dense as what Tesla have been using.

BMW i3 also uses prismatic cells but has some active thermal management.

Google image search will find photos of dissambled BMW, Nissan and Renault packs.

There are also YouTube videos of BMW packs on the assembly line.

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pony wrote:
I don’t understand why does Tesla use multiple cells stacked together and not create one big cell, like Apple does. No empty space, higher capacity, less issues to worry about, a lot of advantages…

Apple doesn’t use “one big cell” they build batteries out of multiple smaller cells, both to reach higher voltages than available from a single cell, and also to make their computers really thin. I think the original MacBook air was the first model to go this route, but Apple has been using pouch cells for a lot longer. Since the first MacBook Pros, at least. I’m not sure when they last used cylindrical cells. I have a dim memory that some of the early MacBook’s (non-Pro) used 18650s, but I could be wrong.

Apple’s long run-times and long-cycle life are not the direct result of using pouch cells. Instead, having the biggest battery possible reduces the wear during discharge. Also, with high-capacity & long runtimes, trading some capacity for increased durability is more tenable. Giving up 10% of a 10hr runtime is a while hour, while 10% of a 5hr runtime is only 30m, but which would be more annoying?

Worth noting, pouch cells, particularly in custom shapes, are more expensive per Wh/Ah than high volume cylindrical cells (ie 18650s)

As for Tesla’s use of cylindrical cells, part of the reason is historical. Tesla was born from the realization that, fueled by the consumer electronics industry, 18650 cells would be a viable power source for high-end electric cars if they could successfully engineer big batteries around them They did. Their first packs were built from basically stock panasonic cells. The cells for the Model S packs was, last I checked, slightly, customized. Their 21700 cell is yet another step in the evolution of their battery tech.

The approach of leveraging commodity cylindrical cells let them launch a successful electric car company and beat larger competitors to the punch, in part because most of those competitors relied on custom battery designs.

Sticking with cylindrical cells allows them to better leverage their past experience. It also allows them more flexibility. They can use the same cells in any car model, custom packs for customers, fixed storage batteries. They can also more easily sell excess production.

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ev battery packs must resist to some impactor tests such like a pole . multi cells are just safer.
also multi cells in series are required to reach high voltages necessary for the car motor(s) to run.
think that Tesla is running on 400V motor(s)

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ChrYoko wrote:
ev battery packs must resist to some impactor tests such like a pole . multi cells are just safer.
also multi cells in series are required to reach high voltages necessary for the car motor(s) to run.
think that Tesla is running on 400V motor(s)

That’s not what he’s talking about, he’s talking about cylindrical vs prismatic cells.
Lipo packs used in phones and laptops are prismatic pouches in the shape of flat rectangles, 18650s and 21700s are cylindrical lithium ion cells.
It’s just a different shape.
You can put multiple lipo packs in series just like with cylindrical cells to get high voltages.
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Lipo and 18650 isn’t a high or low end laptop thing, it’s a thin versus thick thing. There are plenty of thick high end laptops that have room the room for and use 18650’s, and there are plenty of low end laptops and tablets with lipo batteries.

As far as Tesla, I suspect it’s also because it’s easier to automate at high speed and maintain high quality, in addition to cooling. As far as the latter, just look at the Samsung Note fires due to lipo pouch deforment. A corner got crushed a small amount and caused huge problems. The rigid case and tight tolerances of the 18650 form factor makes that problem much less likely.

The low mode should be lower.

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leaftye wrote:
Lipo and 18650 isn’t a high or low end laptop thing, it’s a thin versus thick thing. There are plenty of thick high end laptops that have room the room for and use 18650’s, and there are plenty of low end laptops and tablets with lipo batteries.

Almost every single laptop these days uses a lipo because it is more space efficient, they don’t need any special cooling or durability for the battery.
Old laptops used 18650s almost all the time.
You will also never find a modern phone with a cylindrical cell either.
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i want to chime in on 26650
after testing them i think they are Sub-par compared to Sanyo/Panasonic NCR18650

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poster wrote:
i want to chime in on 26650
after testing them i think they are Sub-par compared to Sanyo/Panasonic NCR18650

If you’re talking about crappy 26650s then sure, but not a good one like the Shockli 5500mAh cells.
There is no 18650 with that much capacity or current capability.
Not even a 21700.
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well i took a chance on this item Aibocn Portable Charger 8000mAh 2.1A Output Power Bank (when on sale for $7.50 and was hoping it might be better then 2× 3400mAh of my NCR18650B

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gauss163 wrote:

That claim is pure nonsense. The shape of the battery generally has little to do with its cycle/calendar life.

It actually does, rectangles are 100% space efficient, cylinders are not.
You can fit more capacity per volume using rectangular cells.
More capacity = longer life.
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gauss163 wrote:

No, the little wasted space has nothing to do with Pony’s claims (and actually may increase life since it promotes cooling). See the edit to my above post for the real reasons.

Unlike with car batteries, there is no coolant running between the 18650 cells in a 5 year old laptop.
Standing air does not provide any cooling.
All modern laptops use Lipo packs instead of cylindrical cells for space savings and more capacity.

This is not the reason why macbooks have such long battery life, since there are other laptops with short battery life that also use lipo cells, so in that sense he is wrong.

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