Lithium–air battery, they could make electric cars practical.

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dw911
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Rufusbduck wrote:
Oil comes with a price tag we can’t afford and can no longer ignore. It’s going to end badly if we don’t recognize that. Other countries have and are moving away from oil, we can and we must. It will take time, even more so with “we can’t do it this minute so we shouldn’t try at all” thinking. It took more than decades to put gas stations on every corner in a time when all construction was done by hand. That got done and so will this. When need drives…

Quite agree, we can’t go on burning fossil fuels like we are and like we have been, not just that but often in such a wasteful way, who needs a ridiculous big 4×4 that does 7mpg, to drive one child to school everyday in a 1st would country ?
Fine as a toy weekend for a blast, but why not get a economical daily driver, a small VW car can do 80-90 mpg, even something like that multiplied would probably make more a difference, but things like that are just the tip of a very big ice burg, we are simply far to wasteful with fossil fuels

The main issue though is we are addicted to oil, we are awash with it, it’s cheap, $30 a barrel last time I looked
And far to many vested intrests tied up with oil and keeping the consumer using it.

But these electric cars arnt some silver bullet some people would have us believe, at the present time a hybrid makes more sense and would be a better option,small ultra efficient ice engine supplying the electrical energy.
Remember unless an electric car is charged up from renewables, it’s still burning up fossil fuels, so why not burn it where it’s needed and most efficient? In the vehicle.

But by far the simplest and easiest solution,- maybe as a short term solution whilst we work out the electric vehicle flaws or something else – is to make what we have I.e the internal combustion engine much more efficient and the vehicles lighter – you can already buy family cars with small turbo charged engines that will do 100mpg – with the will or demand from consumer that could easily be improved upon by the established manufacturers and the efficiency would filter up to bigger vehicles in the range.
No change of infrastructure needed, no expensive electricity grid updating or charging infrastructure needed, simply changes like that could be with us in no time and certainly quickly than waiting for a electric vehicle that is as practical/convenient is an ice vehicle is today.

Just my opinion of course Smile

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dw911 wrote:

Quite agree, we can’t go on burning fossil fuels like we are and like we have been, not just that but often in such a wasteful way, who needs a ridiculous big 4×4 that does 7mpg, to drive one child to school everyday in a 1st would country ?
Fine as a toy weekend for a blast, but why not get a economical daily driver, a small VW car can do 80-90 mpg, even something like that multiplied would probably make more a difference, but things like that are just the tip of a very big ice burg, we are simply far to wasteful with fossil fuels

The main issue though is we are addicted to oil, we are awash with it, it’s cheap, $30 a barrel last time I looked
And far to many vested intrests tied up with oil and keeping the consumer using it.

But these electric cars arnt some silver bullet some people would have us believe, at the present time a hybrid makes more sense and would be a better option,small ultra efficient ice engine supplying the electrical energy.
Remember unless an electric car is charged up from renewables, it’s still burning up fossil fuels, so why not burn it where it’s needed and most efficient? In the vehicle.

But by far the simplest and easiest solution,- maybe as a short term solution whilst we work out the electric vehicle flaws or something else – is to make what we have I.e the internal combustion engine much more efficient and the vehicles lighter – you can already buy family cars with small turbo charged engines that will do 100mpg – with the will or demand from consumer that could easily be improved upon by the established manufacturers and the efficiency would filter up to bigger vehicles in the range.
No change of infrastructure needed, no expensive electricity grid updating or charging infrastructure needed, simply changes like that could be with us in no time and certainly quickly than waiting for a electric vehicle that is as practical/convenient is an ice vehicle is today.

Just my opinion of course Smile


+1

Oil prices closed today at $43.58.

As the world begins to understand the relationship between all fossil fuels and climate change the prices of fossil fuels will drop even more. In June 2008 the price was $136.31 a barrel.

At even low prices the fossil fuel industries will be making money as compared to not selling any fossil fuels.

Study any people with an addiction and the their ability to justify it is remarkable.

“You must have a plan, if you don’t have a plan, you will become part of someone else’s plan.” Terence McKenna

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Aside: the IWW, still active: http://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Unionized-Staff-at-Ellens-Stardust-...
“… owner … fired six long-time employees in retaliation for their efforts to form a union …”

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hank wrote:
Aside: the IWW, still active: http://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Unionized-Staff-at-Ellens-Stardust-...
“… owner … fired six long-time employees in retaliation for their efforts to form a union …”

hank

Thank you for the link. The IWW is making inroads with service employee workers, but as you can see the results have been discouraging.

I like the fact that the workers choose another name Stardust Family United while working under the IWW.

Income for the 90% who are under the top incomes have been stagnant and lower since 1972 when adjusted for inflation and income raises.

http://www.epi.org/publication/the-top-10-charts-of-2014/

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Dang, you have to buy a new model car to get the new battery?? So it seems to say

Quote:
the new Model S P100D—thanks to the new battery pack— … at 315 miles, it has the longest range
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hank wrote:
Dang, you have to buy a new model car to get the new battery?? So it seems to say

Quote:
the new Model S P100D—thanks to the new battery pack— … at 315 miles, it has the longest range

Yes, this is only for the Tesla owners or new buyers.

The EV has a long way to go to be in a mass market. I would expect too that fossil fuel providers will keep their prices low until they exhaust all easily extracted fossil fuels.

This will be a challenge to the philosophy of the free market system. The diverse ideals of generating profit vs. the need to control environment degradation.

“You must have a plan, if you don’t have a plan, you will become part of someone else’s plan.” Terence McKenna

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sidecross wrote:
hank wrote:
Dang, you have to buy a new model car to get the new battery?? So it seems to say

Quote:
the new Model S P100D—thanks to the new battery pack— … at 315 miles, it has the longest range

Yes, this is only for the Tesla owners or new buyers.

The EV has a long way to go to be in a mass market. I would expect too that fossil fuel providers will keep their prices low until they exhaust all easily extracted fossil fuels.

This will be a challenge to the philosophy of the free market system. The diverse ideals of generating profit vs. the need to control environment degradation.


Not really, consumers will go electric as the economics and availability improve. I was impressed at 400k pre orders before the car even exists, so was Tesla, the did not expect such a huge pent up demand.
If no one wanted it then there would be a collective yawn at the Bolt instead of the fawning interest.

The Journal of Alternative Facts

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of Alternative Facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists."

 

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I don’t know if anyone caught this:

The article wrote:
The Model 3 will have new lithium-ion batteries made at Tesla’s Gigafactory outside of Reno, Nevada. Those batteries will be bigger (wider and longer) than the traditional ones, packing more materials into each battery.
Crying

I took this to mean each individual cell. As it is stated it would be the battery pack on a whole that is bigger.

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dchomak wrote:
I don’t know if anyone caught this:
The article wrote:
The Model 3 will have new lithium-ion batteries made at Tesla’s Gigafactory outside of Reno, Nevada. Those batteries will be bigger (wider and longer) than the traditional ones, packing more materials into each battery.
Crying

I took this to mean each individual cell. As it is stated it would be the battery pack on a whole that is bigger.


http://fortune.com/2016/07/27/tesla-bigger-battery-gigafactory/

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As a side note the GM EV car is named the Volt; is the name being used in the last few comments has been ‘Bolt’. Is this a tongue in cheek expression?

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dchomak wrote:
I don’t know if anyone caught this:
The article wrote:
The Model 3 will have new lithium-ion batteries made at Tesla’s Gigafactory outside of Reno, Nevada. Those batteries will be bigger (wider and longer) than the traditional ones, packing more materials into each battery.
Crying

I took this to mean each individual cell. As it is stated it would be the battery pack on a whole that is bigger.


They are going to 21700 cells, this has been extensively covered including on BLF
sidecross wrote:
As a side note the GM EV car is named the Volt; is the name being used in the last few comments has been ‘Bolt’. Is this a tongue in cheek expression?

Two different cars, the volt is a battery/gas hybrid, first 60 miles (new version) is electric then switches to gas engine
Bolt is pure EV

The Journal of Alternative Facts

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of Alternative Facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists."

 

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Bort wrote:

Two different cars, the volt is a battery/gas hybrid, first 60 miles (new version) is electric then switches to gas engine
Bolt is pure EV

Bort

Thank you!

I am getting so jaded. Smile

“You must have a plan, if you don’t have a plan, you will become part of someone else’s plan.” Terence McKenna

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The article, and everybody else uses the words “cell” and “battery” as though they are the same thing.
Even though they always use the word battery, meaning cell, I understood they were going to use a size larger than the current 18650 cell. My hope was that a better 18650 would come out of the giga factory.
As the cell size goes up, the surface to volume ratio goes down. As that number goes down, so does the ability to shed heat.
On the other hand, I think, as the size goes up the ability to pack more volume in a given space goes down. I suppose there would be an optimal size and I guess 21700 is closer to it than 18650.

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I am a bit long in the tooth and many might already know these figures on the Tesla S:

Li-ion Panasonic 18650A NCA cells

60, 85, 85-performance kWh 85-kWh = 16 modules with 6 groups in series (402 volts, 7104 cells) 60-kWh = 14 modules (352 volts, 6216 cells) Groups contain 74 cells.

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I think cost per cell might affect the equation as well. It might take fewer cells to have the same energy even though they take up more space.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

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Rufusbduck wrote:
I think cost per cell might affect the equation as well. It might take fewer cells to have the same energy even though they take up more space.

+1

If battery energy could be as efficient while reducing both weight and reduced area needed to house them, it would be another big step in the evolution of EV.

“You must have a plan, if you don’t have a plan, you will become part of someone else’s plan.” Terence McKenna

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scrumpypaul wrote:
I’m quite interested in this topic. Currently running a Honda Jazz 1.2 litre which is now ten years old. It has been a reliable car. I’ve covered 131,000 miles in that time. My MPG is around 50, give or take. I drive very gently. Most of my driving is the short (12-14 miles) commute to go to work or collect my children. The most miles I do in a jaunt is maybe up to 50 miles round trip, rarely more than that when I think about it, though I may do a couple of these length trips in a single day. Next month I retire, so taking away my journey to work, my mileage is going to drop substantially, I reckon to around 8,000-10,000 miles per year.

Anyway, I bought the car new, it cost me around £9,000 ($12,000).

On the basis of my MPG, the fuel over the decade (looking at roughly £1.15-£1.20 per litre or so) is around £14,000 ($19,000) – that figure is variable, bearing in mind fluctuations of fuel costs.

Car tax is £100 a year, so £1,000 ($1,350)

I’ll not include annual servicing costs or usual tyre changes etc, neither will I include any one-off repair costs I’ve had to do because that is just the luck of the draw. Neither will I include whatever my car is worth now.

So, without these costs, my 131,000 miles have cost me £24,000. Call it $32,000.

When I think of these costs, an electric car such as the Nissan Leaf starts to become attractive. I can get a deal through work where a Leaf is (after a £499 / $650 deposit) £199 / $262 per month. They will fit a fast charger at my home. This will be for three years then I can either hand back the car or give them about £10,000 ($13,200) and the car is mine. So the three years would be £7,663 ($10,000) – if I was to keep the car then it would cost me £17,663 ($23,200). This is on the basis of (in those three years) 6,000 miles per year. Extra miles are 10p / 13c per mile. Of course, if I buy the car after three years then I can do as many miles as I like in it. According to the blurb, the Leaf costs around 2p per mile, so if I did 131,000 miles it would cost me £2,620 ($3,500) in fuel. Grand total is just over £20,000 ($26,500), not including the servicing or other ad-hoc costs.

My thoughts are to maybe, potentially keep my little Jazz for those longer journeys and have something like a Leaf as my day to day car.

Certainly, the sums start to make sense. By the way, EV’s don’t pay car tax in the UK.

So over ten years, my costs would be around £3,000 ($4,000) less than even my very frugal Jazz.

Food for thought.

SP

Bear in mind that the battery only lasts so long, and the range graduallly reduces, so after a given mileage you will have to buy a new battery, which is expensive. And your calculation is based on current electricity costs and taxation. Any significant increase in electric vehicle usage would lead to a change in road vehicle taxation, without any doubt, especially since we will not have to follow regulations from Brussels.

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Be nice to unpleasant people, it really annoys them.

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Leif wrote:

Bear in mind that the battery only lasts so long, and the range graduallly reduces, so after a given mileage you will have to buy a new battery, which is expensive. And your calculation is based on current electricity costs and taxation. Any significant increase in electric vehicle usage would lead to a change in road vehicle taxation, without any doubt, especially since we will not have to follow regulations from Brussels.

Tesla has an eight year and unlimited distance on their batteries; I would think in the future that will increase.

“You must have a plan, if you don’t have a plan, you will become part of someone else’s plan.” Terence McKenna

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sidecross wrote:
Leif wrote:

Bear in mind that the battery only lasts so long, and the range graduallly reduces, so after a given mileage you will have to buy a new battery, which is expensive. And your calculation is based on current electricity costs and taxation. Any significant increase in electric vehicle usage would lead to a change in road vehicle taxation, without any doubt, especially since we will not have to follow regulations from Brussels.

Tesla has an eight year and unlimited distance on their batteries; I would think in the future that will increase.

I read about someone who drive over 100k and battery range had decreased by about 3%, so they have thought ahead and designed the car accordingly

The Journal of Alternative Facts

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of Alternative Facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists."

 

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You call that a battery? This is a battery:

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hank wrote:
You call that a battery? This is a battery:

!{width:20%}https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Malta_-_Valletta_-_P...!


But its range and passenger capacity is extremely poor for the purposes of transportation

The Journal of Alternative Facts

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of Alternative Facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists."

 

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hank wrote:
You call that a battery? This is a battery:

!{width:20%}https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Malta_-_Valletta_-_P...!


Those are the one’s that are supposed to go BOOM! Smile

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Already under discussion is the secondary market for used batteries, much as we reuse laptop and power pack pull only for aftermarket power wall use where capacity is less of an issue.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

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Rufusbduck wrote:
Already under discussion is the secondary market for used batteries, much as we reuse laptop and power pack pull only for aftermarket power wall use where capacity is less of an issue.

That’s going to be awesome. And I read that recycling can claim back virtually all the lithium. nice.

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Joshk wrote:
Rufusbduck wrote:
Already under discussion is the secondary market for used batteries, much as we reuse laptop and power pack pull only for aftermarket power wall use where capacity is less of an issue.

That’s going to be awesome. And I read that recycling can claim back virtually all the lithium. nice.


I agree this will be a big benefit when we better utilize the full potential of lithium batteries from manufacture to recycle.

“You must have a plan, if you don’t have a plan, you will become part of someone else’s plan.” Terence McKenna

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> aftermarket power wall use
Once they figure out how to keep them from exploding.
For sure, next time.
Absolutely, positively, not boom.

Meanwhile, there’s room for improvement in fire fighting protection suits …

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hank wrote:
> aftermarket power wall use
Once they figure out how to keep them from exploding.
For sure, next time.
Absolutely, positively, not boom.

Meanwhile, there’s room for improvement in fire fighting protection suits …


I posted today a video of the new Samsung Note 7 battery shown to catch fire with with small punctures made to the battery. There needs to better training and products available for extinguishing lithium battery firers.

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hank wrote:
> Once they figure out how to keep them from exploding. Absolutely, positively, not boom.

We haven’t been able to prevent planes, cars, ships, trucks, gas furnaces, or water heaters from exploding either.

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Quote:
they had one burning HV battery that required 1,060 gallons of water to extinguish only to have it ‘rekindle’ 22 hours later. They also conducted tests where 1,165 gallons of water or even one test using 2,639 gallons to extinguish the burning battery.

Think about that out on a highway or along a rural roadway. For an xEV vehicle with its high-voltage battery actually burning, that’s a tender to support the water needs plus probably an SCBA cylinder change during the HV battery fire.

https://forums.firehouse.com/forum/rescue-special-ops/university-of-extr...

http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/Files/Research/Research%20Foundation/Researc...

SCBA: (Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus)

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