Lithium–air battery, they could make electric cars practical.

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Joshk
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Now your quote has switched from explosions to fires. And water? Never try to put a gasoline fire out with water, it will spread! I’m telling you man, that gasoline is some scary shit. Even the fumes can kill. But that never makes the daily news.

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Joshk wrote:
hank wrote:
> Once they figure out how to keep them from exploding. Absolutely, positively, not boom.

We haven’t been able to prevent planes, cars, ships, trucks, gas furnaces, or water heaters from exploding either.


+1, whenever we’ve concentrated energy sooner or later it’s got loose, Texas City, Port Chicago, 3 mi island, again in West Texas, Exxon Valdez, the BP spill, carbeques beyond count, oil rig and tanker fires, etc. Liion might be somewhat cleaner but it like anything else it has its dangers and will cause mayhem at some point.

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sidecross wrote:
Leif wrote:
Bear in mind that the battery only lasts so long, and the range graduallly reduces, so after a given mileage you will have to buy a new battery, which is expensive. And your calculation is based on current electricity costs and taxation. Any significant increase in electric vehicle usage would lead to a change in road vehicle taxation, without any doubt, especially since we will not have to follow regulations from Brussels.
Tesla has an eight year and unlimited distance on their batteries; I would think in the future that will increase.

Yes but Tesla is expensive compared to the car cited by the earlier poster. Most cars have a limited mileage per year for a fixed number of years. Tesla though do seem to be making huge strides in making them practical. Selling them as high performance cars is clever, since they are expensive anyway.

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hank wrote:
> aftermarket power wall use
Once they figure out how to keep them from exploding.
For sure, next time.
Absolutely, positively, not boom.

Meanwhile, there’s room for improvement in fire fighting protection suits …

Perhaps best not to buy one of the Chinese brands then, Uranusfire might be more of a prediction than a brand name.

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This article from July. 2016 MIT is pretty good news. No air is exchanged in the charge/discharge cycle so the cell doesn’t swell which ages the materials and reduces cycle life, and charges only .24V above cell potential instead of 1.2V and with 1/5 the power loss during recharge there is much less heating allowing for faster charge cycles.

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EV fires need to be suppressed with knowledge and not traditional methods like water.

Even first responder’s to EV accidents are reluctant to use ‘Jaws of Life’ until all electrical power is shut off.

These are problems to be solved and not reasons to turn away from EV.

“You must have a plan, if you don’t have a plan, you will become part of someone else’s plan.” Terence McKenna

hank
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Quote:
problems to be solved and not reasons to turn away from EV.

Amen to that. Anticipating problems with new tech saves lives, and we don’t have a surplus of firefighters as it is.

I recall a guy who started a wildfire.
He drove his nice sniny new catalytic-converter-equipped truck into high grass.
The grass caught fire.
So, aha, he had a fire extinguisher.
He grabbed that, leaned over, pointed it under the truck, and triggered it.
He blew flaming grass out the other side into the field, where it spread rapidly.

California where I live is going to be an interesting test case for fire management, with all the EVs on the road and coming soon.

I’m not real sure what kind of fire extinguisher(s) I ought to be adding to my car equipment.
I always carry some firefighting equipment.

Because California where I live also has a surprising number of people who throw burning cigarette butts out their windows.

I’ve beaten down a few fires on the freeway margin, thanks to those guys — shovel and flail, not fire extinguisher.
See “dry grass” above.

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hank wrote:
Quote:
problems to be solved and not reasons to turn away from EV.

Amen to that. Anticipating problems with new tech saves lives, and we don’t have a surplus of firefighters as it is.

I recall a guy who started a wildfire.
He drove his nice sniny new catalytic-converter-equipped truck into high grass.
The grass caught fire.
So, aha, he had a fire extinguisher.
He grabbed that, leaned over, pointed it under the truck, and triggered it.
He blew flaming grass out the other side into the field, where it spread rapidly.

California where I live is going to be an interesting test case for fire management, with all the EVs on the road and coming soon.

I’m not real sure what kind of fire extinguisher(s) I ought to be adding to my car equipment.
I always carry some firefighting equipment.

Because California where I live also has a surprising number of people who throw burning cigarette butts out their windows.

I’ve beaten down a few fires on the freeway margin, thanks to those guys — shovel and flail, not fire extinguisher.
See “dry grass” above.


My nephew is a Hot Shot crew member for the U.S. Forest Service and he has been quite busy in the west. Sad

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hank wrote:
Quote:
they had one burning HV battery that required 1,060 gallons of water to extinguish only to have it ‘rekindle’ 22 hours later. They also conducted tests where 1,165 gallons of water or even one test using 2,639 gallons to extinguish the burning battery.

Think about that out on a highway or along a rural roadway. For an xEV vehicle with its high-voltage battery actually burning, that’s a tender to support the water needs plus probably an SCBA cylinder change during the HV battery fire.

https://forums.firehouse.com/forum/rescue-special-ops/university-of-extr...

http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/Files/Research/Research%20Foundation/Researc...

SCBA: (Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus)


When encountering a fire with a lithium-metal battery, only use a Class D extinguisher as water reacts with the lithium metal and makes the fire worse.

http://spectrumfx.net/blog/lithium-battery-fires-why-not-water

“You must have a plan, if you don’t have a plan, you will become part of someone else’s plan.” Terence McKenna

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Yep. And if your truck isn’t carrying Class D extinguishers …. wait for it.
Oh, and if the vehicle has a magnesium engine block or wheels …. oboy.

Add the cost of appropriate fire suppression equipment to the equation.

Quote:
Class D extinguishers can be expensive, and must be selected with the proper agent based upon the flammable metals anticipated in the department’s coverage area. Many fire departments may never face a Class D hazard, but it’s worth keeping in mind that certain vehicles have magnesium engine blocks and wheels. It’s likely that other flammable metals will only become more common in vehicle construction and power trains.

http://www.firefighternation.com/article/firefighting-operations/fire-ex...

I doubt many of us have a Class D extinguisher handy — or the right variety, since that’s a category not a unique type.

I sure don’t. Probably ought to.

https://smile.amazon.com/s/?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=class+...

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Cars catch fire daily but don’t carry them.

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Last night saw the report on the pipe line break in Alabama. We are dependent on the flow of oil for the convenience of the auto. Whatever form(s) of energy we end up relying on in the future, the more diverse the source(s) the less vulnerable we are. The news is portraying communities with long lines at the pump or no gas at all, is this accurate or is the story overblown? Of course, anyone with an EV would not have to deal with that in order to make their daily commute.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

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Rufusbduck wrote:
Last night saw the report on the pipe line break in Alabama. We are dependent on the flow of oil for the convenience of the auto. Whatever form(s) of energy we end up relying on in the future, the more diverse the source(s) the less vulnerable we are. The news is portraying communities with long lines at the pump or no gas at all, is this accurate or is the story overblown? Of course, anyone with an EV would not have to deal with that in order to make their daily commute.

Also the EV charging infrastructure is already present in most homes, we already live with the dangers of electricity

The Journal of Alternative Facts

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of Alternative Facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists."

 

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There is no ‘free lunch’ most power plants for electricity are powered by fossil fuels.

“You must have a plan, if you don’t have a plan, you will become part of someone else’s plan.” Terence McKenna

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sidecross wrote:
There is no ‘free lunch’ most power plants for electricity are powered by fossil fuels.

Yea, most. Because of our history. But with EV we have options, and our children have options. There’s only one material that makes gasoline.

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Joshk wrote:

Yea, most. Because of our history. But with EV we have options, and our children have options. There’s only one material that makes gasoline.

+1

Solar technology if developed and widely used can reduce the carbon footprint too.

“You must have a plan, if you don’t have a plan, you will become part of someone else’s plan.” Terence McKenna

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sidecross wrote:
There is no ‘free lunch’ most power plants for electricity are powered by fossil fuels.

+1 on that

People often forget about where all this electricity is coming from, not to mention no one seems to mention who is going to foot the very large bill to update the already outdated electrical grid and power generating infrastructure need for this change from gasoline to electric vehicles
That tax will make the tax on gasoline seem small change

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Joshk wrote:
There’s only one material that makes gasoline.

And a few others, I used to run my car/boat on fuel 100% oil free fuel
Lots do you can buy it at the pump in many places.

Plus lots of people working on fully synthetic gas, even car manufacturers.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/audi-makes-synthetic-gasoline-using-zero-pe...

Just to add, my comments may seem anti electric vehicle, not at all, It just seems that a lot of people think killing off the gas vehicle and replacing them with electric is the only way to go, to me that’s just short sighted and just a reverse of what happened 100+ years ago, when we dropped electric vehicles in favour of the internal combustion engine , so why not now put our amazing skills technology and creative energy in to improving both forms, otherwise we’re just repeating the mistakes of the past, think where we would be now if 100+ years ago we’d put the same creative energy into both the internal combustion engine vehicle and the electric vehicle

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dw911 wrote:
who is going to foot the very large bill to update the already outdated electrical grid and power generating infrastructure need for this change from gasoline to electric vehicles

The power plants of today weren’t cheap either. I don’t think the best idea is to take a wrecking ball to a perfectly good power plant. All power plants have a lifetime, and then they need to be replaced. Hopefully power companies start replacing them with solar farms instead of (literally) dinosaur-powered generators… when they are end-of-life.

Synthetic gas is possible, but it is very expensive to make. And it doesn’t solve any tailpipe problems.

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Joshk][quote=dw911 wrote:
sidecross wrote:
who is going to foot the very large bill to update the already outdated electrical grid and power generating infrastructure need for this change from gasoline to electric vehicles

The power plants of today weren’t cheap either. I don’t think the best idea is to take a wrecking ball to a perfectly good power plant. All power plants have a lifetime, and then they need to be replaced. Hopefully power companies start replacing them with solar farms instead of (literally) dinosaur-powered generators… when they are end-of-life.


Indeed, now that solar and wind are cheaper then fossil fuel plants the only reason to replace with dino fuel is corporate interests. And its the public who pays for that, even if we are trained to believe otherwise

The Journal of Alternative Facts

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of Alternative Facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists."

 

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Bort wrote:
sidecross wrote:
who is going to foot the very large bill to update the already outdated electrical grid and power generating infrastructure need for this change from gasoline to electric vehicles


This comment was not made by me.

“You must have a plan, if you don’t have a plan, you will become part of someone else’s plan.” Terence McKenna

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The Grid wastes half the power generated in transmitting it over long distances. Reducing the current load by half will dramatically reduce power losses. To do that we need more localized power generation. Other ways to power transportation will undoubtedly evolve as technology improves and we obviously can’t just stop using fossil fuels in an instant either for power generation or for transportation but using it is a dead end since it’s a fixed and limited supply. Our needs grow with the population and the negative effects of its use accelerate with it as well. We need to get behind these alternatives and support them rather than fight them, criticize them, and denigrate them. Since fossil fuels are a vast but not endless resource the use of which is causing harm it makes no sense to pretend we can continue as we are. The incredibly vast arrays of pipelines, tankers, refineries, and fueling stations moving, processing and delivering crude were developed, built, and backed by the oil companies and governments of the world and took a hundred years to reach its present state. We will need the same level of commitment, investment, and time to replace them with something we won’t run out of and isn’t as damaging.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

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sidecross wrote:
Bort wrote:
sidecross wrote:
who is going to foot the very large bill to update the already outdated electrical grid and power generating infrastructure need for this change from gasoline to electric vehicles


This comment was not made by me.

something has gone wrong with the quoting system, even on my post the name of the person i’m quoting seems to have extra characters in it

The Journal of Alternative Facts

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of Alternative Facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists."

 

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Transmission losses are unfortunate, but I don’t think the average homeowner can or wants to dabble in running his own power plant. Daily operations and maintenance is best left to a power company in my opinion.

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Bort wrote:
something has gone wrong with the quoting system, even on my post the name of the person i’m quoting seems to have extra characters in it

Is this what Edward Snowden was warning us about? Smile

“You must have a plan, if you don’t have a plan, you will become part of someone else’s plan.” Terence McKenna

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In Europe there are already community solar farms. For every problem there’s a solution. solutions are easy, it’s the negative mindset that’s harder to overcome.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

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sidecross wrote:
Bort wrote:
something has gone wrong with the quoting system, even on my post the name of the person i’m quoting seems to have extra characters in it

Is this what Edward Snowden was warning us about? Smile


If he is concerned with the BLF quoting system then we should probably feel honoured Big Smile

The Journal of Alternative Facts

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of Alternative Facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists."

 

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Transmission losses are based upon economics. You can dramatically reduce the transmission losses (increased transmission voltages, increased effective conductor size), but doing so requires a huge investment. The long and the short of the problem is that at the moment the Return on that additional investment (ROI) is less than the reduction of the cost of the losses that would result. BTW, it takes a very long, and poorly designed transmission system to lose half the power. The problem with much of the distribution network is that it is very old and is running at close to capacity, and just try to build a new EHV transmission line in this country. Remember that doubling the power through the transmission network, quadruples the losses unless you can increase the voltage along the way. That generally isn’t an option on a 345KV transmission line. Much of the transmission network in the USA is now operating at far higher average power levels than they were 20 years ago, and that translates directly into bigger losses.

OTOH, the thermodynamic efficiency of thermal generating operations (Coal, Oil and Natural Gas) is considerably less than 50%. There is far more ‘gold’ available to be mined from more overall efficiency in the generation process than there is from improving the distribution network. In general fuel cells are far more efficient than thermal generation, unfortunately the feed stocks for fuel cells are at present, much more expensive.

hank
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Anybody here building little solar panel chargers for our small electronics?
Something we can put on an awning or in a sunny window that will charge a little battery box, that will then trickle charge small electronics/battery chargers as power is available?
Ideally usable with one of the “USB octopus” dividers so it has plenty of ports where slow charging devices can be left connected and taken off only when needed.
Please, pointer, or start a thread.

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hank wrote:
Anybody here building little solar panel chargers for our small electronics?
Something we can put on an awning or in a sunny window that will charge a little battery box, that will then trickle charge small electronics/battery chargers as power is available?
Ideally usable with one of the “USB octopus” dividers so it has plenty of ports where slow charging devices can be left connected and taken off only when needed.
Please, pointer, or start a thread.

Harbor Freight has some low wattage solar panels, but they are way too expensive for my budget!

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