Question for the Experts on LED Usage

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lichan
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Question for the Experts on LED Usage

I recently replaced a light fixture with 3 60 incans with a ceiling fan that came with 2 60 W-equivalent CFLs that consume 14W each (which the manual says is the “max”). The light can be dimmed. I was looking to replace the CFL bulbs with 2 100w-equivalent dimmable LED bulbs. Home Depot has dimmable 100W LED which consume 16W each. Would it be a disaster waiting to happen if I put these in the light or should I wait for the next advance in lumens per watt to get a 100W LED that uses 14W or less? Does anyone know of any LED bulbs that fit the criteria? It’s a large, high-ceilinged room and very dim. I can get 2 75W dimmable LEDs that use 14W or less or I can get 2 non-dimmable 100W LEDs ( which may be too bright at times.) So, what’s my best option?

keltex78
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I’ve never seen a ceiling fan that had such a low power threshold for the light bulbs. Does the manual recommend 60W as the max or does it specifically say 14W? Also, the fixture itself should have a sticker with the maximum wattage rating for bulbs to be installed… Do you see that anywhere?

My instinct would make me think that a 16W bulb should be no issue at all, but I’m not going to be the one responsible for burning your house down… Innocent
+
What brand/model of fan is it?+

My biggest concern would be if the fixture has an enclosed globe, that would limit the cooling ability of the LED bulbs. They would need some air moving around them to move heat away or they could fail prematurely…


Keepin’ the “B” in BLF

Don wrote:
It sounds like the XM LEDs won’t really be suitable for flashlight use. Pity…

mdeni
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You say the room is dim.

Put the 16W leds in warm white and from a quality brand that offers higher cri light. Stay below 3200K color.

Also get another lamp in the corner of the room. Also warm under 3500K, and higher cri.

And another on some side table. You will thank me later.

Expecting a room to be quality lit from a single lamp, up high is not possible. Or very hard and expensive. This way you will spend less, and get a much better quality light in the room.

2W will not change anything. and can be used with no problems. Usually fixtures are rated up to 60W, so there should be absolutely no problem using anything under that.

gi.lumens
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Mdeni is correct most light fixtures are 60watt and up. Also the 14watt cfl equivalent means that the lights produce the same light output as a 60watt incandescent . So you want to buy led equivalent to 60watt.I also buy my led bulbs at home depot they should have a display showing the different levels, soft white, bright white etc.. I have several rentals and have replaced the ceiling fan lights with 6watt leds that are 40w equivalent and they light up the room nicely. I use the soft white in the bedrooms and table lamps.home depot does carry the 60w equivalent dimmable 9.5w led Phillips A19

lichan
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Thanks all, but I must not have explained well enough. It is a new ceiling fan with a newfangled light fixture attached. It is not made for incandescent bulbs only for the newer lower power CFLs/LEDs. The 14W is the maximum power consumption for each of the two bulbs. Right now it was supplied with two CFLs which supposedly each put out light equivalent to 60W incandescent bulbs. We are going to put the house up for sale and there is no furniture in the room and not likely to be. We had several lamps in it before we started downsizing. I just wanted to be able to light the room as well as the original light fixture’s three 60W incans did. I agree that two 15W incandescent bulbs would be feeble indeed but the 14W limit in this case is a measure of the electricity draw of the bulbs. It has a globe but is beneath the fan which might be enough to cool it since it would only rarely be at the maximum 200W light output. I was concerned about the extra electrical draw of 16W LEDs vs. 14W CFLs.

mattheww
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I am going to raise an entirely different issue. My experiences with the Cree 100 watt equivalent LED lamps has been awful, and that experience has been echoed by others on the BLF. The longest any of mine have run was about 1000 hours. I bought two, both failed, both were replaced, and both of those have failed. I asked Cree for my money back at that point, which they eventually did. The most recent Cree 100 watt products quote a significantly shorter life than the 60 and 40 watt equivalent products, although that life is still long compared to my experience. At $15 or more per lamp, and only 1000 hour plus $6 each time I had to ship a dead lamp back to Cree, it was an awful investment, and one I am in no hurry to repeat. Do the math. I ended up spending almost $60 for less than 3000 hours use. (I got 20 minutes out one of the lamps) The electricity savings didn’t come anywhere near paying for the lamps and postage. Turn around from Cree on the warranty was about 5 weeks. Just a bad experience all around.

The difference between 14 and 16 watts draw is probably inconsequential. The ratings are nominal, and based upon nominal line voltage. There is enough variation in line voltage so that your 14 watt lamp could easily be close to 18 watts, this is less true with electronic ballasts, and more true with magnetic ballasts. I would not worry about the difference between 14 and 16 watts. The rule of thumb in most electrical applications is if you are +/- 10% of spec, you are doing well. Your 16 watts is slightly beyond the 10% figure nominally. I find it hard to fathom a design of a line powered consumer device where 2 watts would make any difference, and I am an Electrical Engineer at least by education.

lichan
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mattheww wrote:
I am going to raise an entirely different issue. … I find it hard to fathom a design of a line powered consumer device where 2 watts would make any difference, and I am an Electrical Engineer at least by education.

Thanks for answer, Matthew. Yes, it’s been my experience that none of the “lasts longer” bulbs (of any kind) last nearly as long as the claim. The manufacturers know that few will take the time, effort and money to call them on it. In my case it is just a temporary usage to light the large formal living room, which in actual use would have several lamps, enough so prospective buyers could see the room well enough and not leave the impression that it was a large dark cave. So I will go with the most light possible and make sure the ceiling fan is running and not expect the bulbs to last for years.

Angler
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The biggest concern is the amount of heat that is held inside the dome or shades.
If the bulb you are considering as replacement produces significantly more heat than the originals, I would not make the change.

I think it will be difficult to produce enough light from the fan alone.
I recently replaced my living room ceiling fan with a new one with the new-fangled restricted light. It’s pretty worthless for lighting the room. Only part I like is it has a remote control, so I can easily turn the overhead light on when I need some light to find the other remote control. Big Smile I grew up with fans having 4 incandescent sockets and we put a hundred watter in each one! I guess that started a few fires and now we all need to be governed.

Keep in mind that a single light source high and center will make the room seem smaller and is generally perceived as unpleasant. As an alternative I would consider a cheap (walmart) torchiere floor lamp placed in the corner with the brightest bulb it can support.

Barkuti
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Maybe you'd want to give those 5730 lightbulbs a try; for example: Ultra Bright 5730 SMD LED Corn Bulb Lamp Light Milky White 110V 220V E27 B22 G9

I'd select one warm and one cool, or 2 warm whites. Two cool whites won't be pleasing for relatively dim output.

5730s nominal power is 0'5W. Those bulbs rarely drive the leds much above half that figure so, even if the bulb's led cooling is a bit lacking they should perform well. Driver quality may be a gamble, a few months ago I purchased a 3014 SMD E14 led bulb and it recently died. It felt solidly built, yet the internals didn't matched up. 

 

Cheers Party

 

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keltex78
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I’ve had bad luck with the 5730-style corn lights personally… I had purchased a couple of varieties of 6W or 8W style candelabra bulbs, and even with the limited drive current, I noticed a reduction in brightness over a matter of a couple of weeks. On checking the bulbs, I noticed multiple emitters in the array had a significant darkening of the emitter surface, so they don’t seem to handle the heat very well. Plus, the color output on these tend to be pretty horrendous. The cool-white is a very ugly green/blue tint. The warm-white was okay, but a bit to artificially yellow for a natural light.

Unfortunately, the design of these bulbs leaves little or no heat sinking, and the shroud prevents any air from circulating, which causes further heat issues…

The best E12/Candelabra style bulbs I’ve found so far are the LED filament style. I’ve purchased a set of these which have been in use for about six months now, and have had NO failures or issues of any kind…

http://www.ebay.com/itm/E12-E26-110V-2W-4W-6W-8W-Retro-Vintage-Filament-LED-Candelabra-Globe-Light-Bulb-/401094087002
(not recommending this seller or listing, just an example of the style I’m talking about)

Again, my experience with the Cool-White bulbs has been bad due to the poor tint, but the bulbs have been solid performers.

(edit to add)Here’s the thread on the bulbs I bought…
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/45542


Keepin’ the “B” in BLF

Don wrote:
It sounds like the XM LEDs won’t really be suitable for flashlight use. Pity…

lichan
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Thanks for those further options, guys.

Barkuti
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This is the one I purchased which didn't proved reliable:

Link: 3/5/6/7/9W G4 G9 E14 Dimmable SMD Crystal Silicone Corn LED Bulbs Lamp Lights

It was the “neutral white”, though I still found the tint slightly displeasing for a bedroom light. I'm on a 40W “milky white” incandescent now. 

Thanks for the info on those COB led filament emulator bulbs keltex78, seem nice for lower powered applications.

 

Cheers Party

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Lithopsian
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Despite the talk about 16W being OK in a 14W-rated fitting and the only problem being heat buildup in the shades, you need to be aware that when it says “max 14W” it might actually mean it. They will (may) have used thin wiring and connectors that will potentially melt or worse if run beyond spec. Or they might just be messing with you and the poor thing can run 40W or 60W without breaking stride. Up to you whether you want to risk it. 14W is really stupidly under-specified, they’d have to be using bell-wire. I’d be really p’ed off if I bought something and found that sort of label on it when I got home. One of the nice things about LEDs is that you can up the light a bit on those lamps as my eyes get older and I realise that sitting in the dark isn’t so much fun any more.

hank
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Quote:
they’d have to be using bell-wire.

The various kinds of “110-220v” lamp holders I’ve gotten recently (from AliExpress) have indeed used wire about that thin.

Scary.

SawMaster
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Since you’re selling the house just leave the CFL’s in place and let the new owners deal with it. That removes your potential liability for anything that could go wrong Wink

I haven’t measured them, but some of the new fans and fixtures I install in my work look like they have 20ga wires feeding the lights and that’s a step down from the 18ga which has become common (especially in fan lights). We only use LED’s in fans now to reduce service calls where vibrations can kill incan’s and CFL’s in a week or less. Usually it’s the cheap stuff though so I can’t recommend anything in particular.

Phil

lichan
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Thanks for all the info and suggestions. I think I will leave it as is since the room would normally have several lamps in it.

Lithopsian
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I think these manufacturers with their skinny wires are sneaking round NEC standards, possibly just ignoring them (hello Chinese imports) or perhaps hiding behind some corporate type listing. 20 gauge wire is entirely capable of running those lights or even a few old 60W bulbs, but that isn’t the point. Mains lighting wires are recommended to be 18 gauge in part because they are directly connected to the mains supply. The “weak link” in that circuit should be a fuse or breaker, not some under-rated cheap wire. If the wire melts before the breaker trips then you have a fire hazard or worse. And of course some old-timer is bound to end up putting in 60W bulbs and you can hardly blame them whatever some tiny sticker might say.

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Some 20AWG copper wire numbers:

At 2 meters distance from the load (4m total) and 4 amps of current, voltage drop over the entire wire lenght is 547'784mV, dissipating 2'191W over the entire cable, and providing all of the close to 438 remaining watts to “whatever else”. So no problem even at this current.

Maybe those recommendations have more to do with the actual wire cord strenght, and its resistance to abuse. A properly thick sheathing also plays a role. 

 

Cheers Party

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Lithopsian
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Barkuti wrote:

Some 20AWG copper wire numbers:


At 2 meters distance from the load (4m total) and 4 amps of current, voltage drop over the entire wire lenght is 547’784mV, dissipating 2’191W over the entire cable, and providing all of the close to 438 remaining watts to “whatever else”. So no problem even at this current.


Maybe those recommendations have more to do with the actual wire cord strenght, and its resistance to abuse. A properly thick sheathing also plays a role. 


 


Cheers Party

Feel free to ignore the part where I explained why 20 gauge mains wiring is dangerous Wink

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Is it you presuming I ignored it? Smile

On the other hand, I live in a 230VAC country, and I've rarely seen less than 240VAC at my outlets. 20AWG is pretty safe here, doesn't it?

This remembers me when I was kid… found some nice piece of chopped thick wire. I carefully extracted a few hairs from it and made a sort of “Y” shape thing with it, in order to stuff it on my kitchen table mains' socket and… DANG!!! Father not happy… 

 

Cheers Party

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