Report: NCR18650 blows up while being relived on an Opus BT-C3100...

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Barkuti
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Report: NCR18650 blows up while being relived on an Opus BT-C3100...

Post #37 in topic “EXPLOSIÓN PILAS 18650” @ForoLinternas

jomertab reports:

  • Setting a cell in parallel with the firecracker to ramp up its voltage enough for it to be accepted by the charger.
  • After 3 hours of slow recovery to 3V, he then set the charging current to 1.5A.
  • At about 3.75V, he increased the current to 2A.
  • At some point above 3.8V, BOOM!!! Facepalm

Ashes all over the room reported.

That cell may have been left too much time over-discharged, I presume.

 

Cheers Party

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Edited by: Barkuti on 11/06/2016 - 15:50
hIKARInoob
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Man, I can’t wait for lithium ion cells to be as obsolete as VHS

hank
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Quote:
to ramp up its voltage enough for it to be accepted by the charger

Quote:
“Programming today is a race between software engineers
striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs,
and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots.
So far, the Universe is winning.”

― Rick Cook

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Charging 4 GAs as I read this… 4.04V at this moment using VP4. Just checked temperature per cell… Hold on let me check again…

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hank wrote:
Quote:
to ramp up its voltage enough for it to be accepted by the charger

Quote:
“Programming today is a race between software engineers
striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs,
and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots.
So far, the Universe is winning.”

― Rick Cook


+1 Here it is! Idiots gonna be idiots! Facepalm

It doesn’t sound very nice, but a guy at work likes to say, when somebody is being unbelievably idiotic, that in the wild they would have been food.

The Cycle of Goodness: “No one prospers without rendering benefit to others”
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Turby3Pots
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hardly an explosion

dw911
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hIKARInoob wrote:
Man, I can’t wait for lithim ion cells to be as obsolete as VHS

Seems strange to blame the battery, I’d blame the human who was stupid enough to charge a cell in that condition at 2 amps.

Bit like someone checking their gas tank has fuel in it with a cigarette lighter, then blaming the gasoline when they blow half their face off Smile

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I agree, I hate charging perfect condition cells at 2 amps, I generally charge them at .5-1 amps tops. I see no reason to stress them out while charging them unless I am in a hurry. In that case I keep spare cells around for a reason.

When reviving a battery in particular though I will at most do 500ma, generally less all the way to 4.2V. Then rest the cell for a week or 2 to see if it maintains the charge before using it.

Any cell that doesn’t maintain at least 4.15v. Dropping from 4.2 to 4.15 is fairly normal after resting but much more is a no go for me unless used in a very low drain application.

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Facepalm
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I dont mind the jump starting so much (but with cells so cheap why), but here is the first indication of an issue:

“After 3 hours of slow recovery to 3V”

If it takes 3 hours to come up to 3v something is very very wrong!

(“It’s good that most people can’t remember their previous lives. Otherwise
things would be a lot more complicated than they already are.”
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Ronin42 wrote:
I dont mind the jump starting so much (but with cells so cheap why), but here is the first indication of an issue:

“After 3 hours of slow recovery to 3V”

If it takes 3 hours to come up to 3v something is very very wrong!

That^

If I tap a dead cell with a charged cell it will generally recover to ~2.5V or so almost instantly.

It will then charge to ~3.2V within a few minutes before slowing down for the “real charge”

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Wow, impressive sounding explosion.

http://www.mpoweruk.com/lithium_failures.htm

At over discharged voltages the copper current collector can dissolve in the electrolyte. Then when the cell is charged the copper re deposits and can form dendrites and cause a short.

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Fellows, jomertab wasn't overly prodigal on providing precise information as to what exactly he did and how. I presume he just gave the cell some very brief bursts to raise it to “some” voltage, and then he set it on the charger. I don't know what minimum voltage is required for a BT-C3100 to pump some sort of charge current for a presumed li-ion cell, probably slightly more than the maximum typical value for a Ni-MH; for the same reason, I also don't know what current does it pumps in such a case, yet my guess is “quite low”.

Unless someone can provide with some sort of wise information in this regard, I see no point in those “raise slowly” policies. Little energy is actually required to set the cell in “valid” (2.5+V) territory, so if you're willing to take the risk in recovering a cell, which can be pretty 0K if over-discharged for just a brief while, I'd just give it some little low duty cycle bursts from another cell for it to get into charger acceptable voltage territory. Or use some sort of slow, dumb chinese charger… and take cover! That's about it. Smile

 

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Please avoid fully quoting lenghty posts, namely with nested quotes. Trim quotes down to the essential. Helps with neatness and legibility. Thanks.

The human mind, and its programming, is at the forefront of a particular battle of The Light vs evil dark forces. Nearly every human being on this beautiful planet “Earth” has some sort of negative mind programming in its mind. And you better take care of your mind programming, or someone else will in this wicked world.

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sounds like he spun the cylinder one time too many…
probably a worn out junk cell that had high resistance and damage from overdischarge pushed into thermal runaway by a too high charge rate for even a new cell of that type.
i/o error.
means idiot operator.

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snakebite wrote:
sounds like he spun the cylinder one time too many… probably a worn out junk cell that had high resistance and damage from overdischarge pushed into thermal runaway by a too high charge rate for even a new cell of that type. i/o error. means idiot operator.

I doubt charging at 2A could cause enough heating to cause thermal runaway.

My explanation above about re-depositing Cu seems more likely.

Barkuti, Did he say how long the cell was left over discharged?

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EasyB wrote:

My explanation above about re-depositing Cu seems more likely.

Barkuti, Did he say how long the cell was left over discharged?


No mention about that. Probably a looong time forgotten somewhere. Facepalm

 

Cheers Party

Please avoid fully quoting lenghty posts, namely with nested quotes. Trim quotes down to the essential. Helps with neatness and legibility. Thanks.

The human mind, and its programming, is at the forefront of a particular battle of The Light vs evil dark forces. Nearly every human being on this beautiful planet “Earth” has some sort of negative mind programming in its mind. And you better take care of your mind programming, or someone else will in this wicked world.

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read it again.
2a rate AND a damaged cell.

EasyB wrote:
snakebite wrote:
sounds like he spun the cylinder one time too many…
probably a worn out junk cell that had high resistance and damage from overdischarge pushed into thermal runaway by a too high charge rate for even a new cell of that type.
i/o error.
means idiot operator.

I doubt charging at 2A could cause enough heating to cause thermal runaway.

My explanation above about re-depositing Cu seems more likely.

Barkuti, Did he say how long the cell was left over discharged?

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Reading the link posted in the OP indicates that the cell was a Panasonic NCR18650 so a quality cell but I couldn’t see anywhere if it was protected or unprotected. Raising the voltage of a tripped protected cell is ok but if it was unprotected with zero voltage then trying to charge it up is in my opinion only asking for bad things to happen.

It reminds me of a coworker who used to reload 9mm by dipping the cases into powder until they were full to the brim. When I asked what powder it was he said he didn’t know and why that would matter.

Both are operator issues in my mind.

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yep equally foolish or more so.
some powders it wont perform and others will result in shrapnel of the firearm in your face.

SIGShooter wrote:
Reading the link posted in the OP indicates that the cell was a Panasonic NCR18650 so a quality cell but I couldn’t see anywhere if it was protected or unprotected. Raising the voltage of a tripped protected cell is ok but if it was unprotected with zero voltage then trying to charge it up is in my opinion only asking for bad things to happen.

It reminds me of a coworker who used to reload 9mm by dipping the cases into powder until they were full to the brim. When I asked what powder it was he said he didn’t know and why that would matter.

Both are operator issues in my mind.

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It looks like a tear-down rather than an explosion…

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Of course, that was far from a ka-boom!, more like a bang! or a poof!. And after vacuum cleaner's service, what you see in the opening post's picture is what was left behind, more or less.

Still, jomertab wrote that #37 post all in capitals… 

 

Cheers Party

Please avoid fully quoting lenghty posts, namely with nested quotes. Trim quotes down to the essential. Helps with neatness and legibility. Thanks.

The human mind, and its programming, is at the forefront of a particular battle of The Light vs evil dark forces. Nearly every human being on this beautiful planet “Earth” has some sort of negative mind programming in its mind. And you better take care of your mind programming, or someone else will in this wicked world.

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dw911 wrote:
hIKARInoob wrote:
Man, I can’t wait for lithim ion cells to be as obsolete as VHS

Seems strange to blame the battery, I’d blame the human who was stupid enough to charge a cell in that condition at 2 amps.

Bit like someone checking their gas tank has fuel in it with a cigarette lighter, then blaming the gasoline when they blow half their face off Smile

You could argue that it was not the battery’s fault. However the gas tank analogy is not really a good one. Fuel is fairly safe, and requires little care beyond the obvious e.g. do not pour over a person and ignite. And there are regulations governing its use such as a firedoor between an attached garage and a house, and using only approved containers for storage. A lithium ion battery on the other hand is a far more sensitive beast, and there are no regulations governing use. Sure you should not short it, but to use an unprotected cell correctly you need to understand how to use a multimeter, and caring for the battery correctly. The problem is that people do not understand how potentially dangerous li ion batteries are and they are sold by shops that do not educate people properly so storing one in a pocket is commonplace.

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There’s no such thing as idiot proof, only idiot resistant. Kind of like water proof, enough pressure and it will happen. Idiots are very persistent in their efforts to sidestep design parameters. I know, I shave one.

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Barkuti wrote:

Of course, that was far from a ka-boom!, more like a bang! or a poof!. And after vacuum cleaner’s service, what you see in the opening post’s picture is what was left behind, more or less.


Still, jomertab wrote that #37 post all in capitals… 


 


Cheers Party

So if you rapidly deconstruct a icr cell, your fairly safe, as in exposure to what’s inside ?.
I thought these cells were full of really bad stuff and chemistry needing a hazmat suit and breathing apperates to clean up.

Sound like he just vacuumed up the remains of the cell and carried on as normal

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Rufusbduck wrote:
There’s no such thing as idiot proof, only idiot resistant. Kind of like water proof, enough pressure and it will happen. Idiots are very persistent in their efforts to sidestep design parameters. I know, I shave one.

Me too 1000X over. Cars today have rev limiters but when they didn’t there were lots of engines that went ‘boom’ from being pushed too far. Something similar happened here; a user with no understanding of what they were doing pushing well beyond the recommended limits. Especially when they pulled the stunt inside their home Facepalm Glad they’re not one of my neighbors!

Phil

dw911
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Leif wrote:
dw911 wrote:
hIKARInoob wrote:
Man, I can’t wait for lithim ion cells to be as obsolete as VHS

Seems strange to blame the battery, I’d blame the human who was stupid enough to charge a cell in that condition at 2 amps.

Bit like someone checking their gas tank has fuel in it with a cigarette lighter, then blaming the gasoline when they blow half their face off Smile

You could argue that it was not the battery’s fault. However the gas tank analogy is not really a good one. Fuel is fairly safe, and requires little care beyond the obvious e.g. do not pour over a person and ignite. And there are regulations governing its use such as a firedoor between an attached garage and a house, and using only approved containers for storage. A lithium ion battery on the other hand is a far more sensitive beast, and there are no regulations governing use. Sure you should not short it, but to use an unprotected cell correctly you need to understand how to use a multimeter, and caring for the battery correctly. The problem is that people do not understand how potentially dangerous li ion batteries are and they are sold by shops that do not educate people properly so storing one in a pocket is commonplace.

No argument, it wasn’t the batteries fault, full stop.
There is a reason you can’t buy unprotected Panasonic icr 18650 cells in convenient packs of 4 or 8 next to the alkaline aa batteries in Asda/Walmart along with the weekly shop Wink
If people don’t know or understand something that could be dangerous, it’s simple they shouldn’t dick around with it.
But your quite right on the rest of your points Smile

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The chemicals in the cell, normally separated by a thin membrane, react rapidly if they mix.
If the chemicals react quickly they heat up very fast.
When the chemicals heat up, being volatile, the pressure inside the cell increases fast.
Venting is a safety feature to release pressure as cells heat up, before ignition temperature of the chemicals is reached.
Bursting is failure of the safety vent, releasing the chemicals rapidly
The chemicals released are flammable and contain enough oxygen to keep burning.
Burning li-ion cells produce hydrogen fluoride — it’s a reaction product, not contained in the original cell.

For an analogous problem, anyone here old enough to remember the problems with fire and chlorofluorocarbons that were used in air conditioners?
Very stable chemicals, CFCs, turned out they lasted long enough to accumulate in the stratosphere, but that’s another issue.
Released near open flame in a refrigeration or car repair shop, CFCs burned and produced phosgene, a rather notorious World War I nerve gas.

Better living through chemistry.

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hank wrote:
The chemicals in the cell, normally separated by a thin membrane, react rapidly if they mix.
If the chemicals react quickly they heat up very fast.
When the chemicals heat up, being volatile, the pressure inside the cell increases fast.
Venting is a safety feature to release pressure as cells heat up, before ignition temperature of the chemicals is reached.
Bursting is failure of the safety vent, releasing the chemicals rapidly
The chemicals released are flammable and contain enough oxygen to keep burning.
Burning li-ion cells produce hydrogen fluoride — it’s a reaction product, not contained in the original cell.

For an analogous problem, anyone here old enough to remember the problems with fire and chlorofluorocarbons that were used in air conditioners?
Very stable chemicals, CFCs, turned out they lasted long enough to accumulate in the stratosphere, but that’s another issue.
Released near open flame in a refrigeration or car repair shop, CFCs burned and produced phosgene, a rather notorious World War I nerve gas.

Better living through chemistry.

So if the battery blows apart like this one It release flammable gasses, but they are only really dangerous if they ignite (hydrogen fluoride) so he was fairly safe and unlikely to have been exposed to anything really harmful ?
So would that mean a venting cell is relatively benign unless it’s venting with flame?
Is that basically correct or is there more too it, as whilst none of its good, it would be nice to know in what circumstances you need to be extra extra carefull in the clean up should something happen to a 18650 cell

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Maybe one of our main problems with this every now and then reckless idiocy, usually a consecuence of ignorant presumptions fed by shame or any other fear based whatever, is when people assume responsibilities not of themselves.

Helping those who get into trouble is nice, of course, and an important part of that help is making them aware of how did they put their feet in it, and the involved cost.

Mmm, back to my spaghetti dish.

 

Cheers Party

Please avoid fully quoting lenghty posts, namely with nested quotes. Trim quotes down to the essential. Helps with neatness and legibility. Thanks.

The human mind, and its programming, is at the forefront of a particular battle of The Light vs evil dark forces. Nearly every human being on this beautiful planet “Earth” has some sort of negative mind programming in its mind. And you better take care of your mind programming, or someone else will in this wicked world.

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Quote:
… but they are only really dangerous …? … a venting cell is relatively benign unless it’s venting with flame?

No. Wrong. And the answer depends on what nobody can tell you.

Seriously, you can look this stuff up — if you know enough about what’s inside the particular cell inside the shrinkwrap.

Which, generally, you never can be sure about. Thus we take precautions after asking “What’s the worst that could happen?”

This is not the place to find health advice about the specific chemistry used in some battery you may have.

The answers about health issues will depend on the specific real thing there in the room with you, not on some general statement about those kinds of things in general.

That’s among the reasons lithium-ions are not made for sale to individuals, and meant to be used only in proper containers with the safety electronics wired in place.

And inside the shrinkwrap may be a well made cell from a reputable manufacturer.

Or not. Look up counterfeit li-ions and find the pictures of where the dirt cheap cells are made, badly, and shrinkwrapped with good fake covers. LMGTFY, but you have to click “Images” on the results page yourself once it appears.

You’re outside the safety limits.

Act accordingly.

Or not.

Evolution in action.

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dw911 wrote:
Leif wrote:
dw911 wrote:
hIKARInoob wrote:
Man, I can’t wait for lithim ion cells to be as obsolete as VHS

Seems strange to blame the battery, I’d blame the human who was stupid enough to charge a cell in that condition at 2 amps.

Bit like someone checking their gas tank has fuel in it with a cigarette lighter, then blaming the gasoline when they blow half their face off Smile

You could argue that it was not the battery’s fault. However the gas tank analogy is not really a good one. Fuel is fairly safe, and requires little care beyond the obvious e.g. do not pour over a person and ignite. And there are regulations governing its use such as a firedoor between an attached garage and a house, and using only approved containers for storage. A lithium ion battery on the other hand is a far more sensitive beast, and there are no regulations governing use. Sure you should not short it, but to use an unprotected cell correctly you need to understand how to use a multimeter, and caring for the battery correctly. The problem is that people do not understand how potentially dangerous li ion batteries are and they are sold by shops that do not educate people properly so storing one in a pocket is commonplace.

No argument, it wasn’t the batteries fault, full stop.
There is a reason you can’t buy unprotected Panasonic icr 18650 cells in convenient packs of 4 or 8 next to the alkaline aa batteries in Asda/Walmart along with the weekly shop Wink
If people don’t know or understand something that could be dangerous, it’s simple they shouldn’t dick around with it.
But your quite right on the rest of your points Smile

For the record, I have never claimed it was the batteries fault this happened. Of course it was the operator who caused this fiasco. There are good reasons why we use lithium ion cells; excellent performance in terms of power, capacity and price. Nevertheless, lithium ion in my opinion is intrinsically unsafe to the point that it is desirable to have it replaced with a new safe format while maintaining its favourable qualities. Reality is that people are going to abuse anything that is available on the internet, so even if it is the operator’s fault, a safer format is desired.
But even when taking the necessary precautions as much as possible things can go wrong. Look at Samsung: we know that they rushed the production of the Note 7 that resulted in the safety hazard. But Samsung are serious people, they even produce their own lithium ion cells; they are no fools. And yet things went wrong due to lithium ion. Look at Apple, another company with good reputation: things do go wrong there as well. The iphone 7 of a surfer was put in his pants and left in his car piled with some clothes on top. Over heating of the battery resulted in a fire that burnt down his car. One can of course argue that it was the operator’s fault, but in my opinion this is primarily due to the fact that lithium ion is intrinsically not safe.
There is a process window where it is safe to use lithium ion, but I believe this window is way to narrow, especially for consumer use. Hence, I also believe that lithium ion will eventually be replaced with a much safer format which will make lithium ion as obsolete as VHS. Cheers.

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