[GB ended,discussion only] CRI > 80+ NICHIA 2000K-6500K [E21A/219B/219C/319A/144A/757GT-F1(Optisolis)]

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ma tumba
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Got the 3K 4K and 5K nichias premounted on the quad boards. Had just a bit of time to light one of each, and definitely need more time because I am a bit confused about what I observe.

Just a quick question: Clemence what solder did you use on the contact plates? I had spent half an hour trying to solder wires to these plates and only half of them were eventually soldered securely enough. The rest just keep snaping off. The generic solder I’d used for years just would not adhere to the plates, I am really confused.

The_Driver
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Are you using a high-wattage soldering iron with wide tip? The low thermal resistance of the dialectric means that the pcb is soaking up most of the heat from your soldering iron.

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The_Driver wrote:
Are you using a high-wattage soldering iron with wide tip? The low thermal resistance of the daliectric means that the pcb is soaking up most of the heat from your soldering iron.

Correct, you have to apply a LOT of heat to mcpcb’s to get them to solder properly in most cases.

I usually solder around 380c but for mcpcb’s I crank it up to 450-500c depending on how large the mcpcb is.

The_Driver
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I meant this specifcally for this pcb. Soldering the wires to it is much more difficult compared to normal DTP PCBs.

Texas_Ace
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The_Driver wrote:
I meant this specifcally for this pcb. Soldering the wires to it is much more difficult compared to normal DTP PCBs.

yeah, I was too, although it depends on which mcpcb you are talking about. The GT mcpcb is a special kind of difficult to solder wires to lol.

ma tumba
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This is the first thing that came to my mind. I use a regulated iron which I set at 300C and when I kept it attached to the PCB for some time, the blob of solder did attach to the plate and looked like a normal blob. But then it just snapped off as if there was dirt underneath. Which was not since I used soldering acid that had worked every time before that.

I am not sure what wattage is this iron, but I used it with an attached aluminum plate for reflowing an LED on another board and it did it easily.

But OK, I’ll try higher temp. I think the iron can go up to 450C.

So far I am very happy with that single 3K. It does have some tint shift, but for a warm tint this is irrelevant.

The specific 5K I tried was a benchmark mule emitter. On par with my trusty 083 but with the potential for a much higher output. Just need to confirm the observation with the other three 5K LEDs on the board.

The one 4K I tried (out of four on the board) had bad tint shift, that nasty green corona which I hate in 219B/C. Not that much of it, but still unacceptable. This was so strikingly different from the 5K that I was really puzzled. But it looked like the tint shift was different in different directions, which may have to do with the remaining three unlit LEDs, reprocessing the light of the lit LED.

Regardless of the tint shift, the on-axis tint was excellent in all the CCTs. No green, no magenta, but I’ll need to double check this in a well illuminated ambient light conditions. My little workshop was not like that today.

So next thing will be to test the consistency of the tint shift patterns across the samples.

djozz
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Yep, loads and loads of heat is needed. I even bought a new tip for my 80W iron especially for these virence boards.

ma tumba
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djozz wrote:
Yep, loads and loads of heat is needed. I even bought a new tip for my 80W iron especially for these virence boards.

Heh, Clemence you really ought to enclose an appropriate iron with every shipment Big Smile
AEDe
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Why dont you use fan? Nevertheless cheapest bekon 950d work good with this mcpcb

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I’ve got a lot of CRI measurements from the E21As Clemence sent me here for those interested:

https://imgur.com/a/xP55G

The results are very good. Super neutral on small currents, rosier on higher. CCT isn’t really affected.

ma tumba
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maukka wrote:
I’ve got a lot of CRI measurements from the E21As Clemence sent me here for those interested:

https://imgur.com/a/xP55G

The results are very good. Super neutral on small currents, rosier on higher. CCT isn’t really affected.


These are all on-axis measurements for both bare leds and with a reflector, right?

What I find interesting is that with the reflector, the LEDs up to 4K keep their CCT while for the 5K and 6.5K LEDs the spot is ~500K cooler than the spill, which means that the tint shift in cooler LEDs is different from that of the warmer ones.

EDIT: what kind of sensor do you use? I have an x-bright i1, that came as part of my display calibration bundle, do you think is it the right tool for your kind of measurements?

maukka
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ma tumba wrote:
These are all on-axis measurements for both bare leds and with a reflector, right?

Yep.

Quote:
EDIT: what kind of sensor do you use? I have an x-bright i1, that came as part of my display calibration bundle, do you think is it the right tool for your kind of measurements?

It’s an x-rite i1pro. You can measure tint (cct and duv, xy coordinates) with the i1 display (pro) colorimeter, but not the CRI, which requires spectral data from a spectrometer. I recommend using the Argyll tools, especially spotread.exe.

ma tumba
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maukka wrote:

It’s an x-rite i1pro. You can measure tint (cct and duv, xy coordinates) with the i1 display (pro) colorimeter, but not the CRI, which requires spectral data from a spectrometer. I recommend using the Argyll tools, especially spotread.exe.

Thank you!
clemence
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ma tumba wrote:
Got the 3K 4K and 5K nichias premounted on the quad boards. Had just a bit of time to light one of each, and definitely need more time because I am a bit confused about what I observe. Just a quick question: Clemence what solder did you use on the contact plates? I had spent half an hour trying to solder wires to these plates and only half of them were eventually soldered securely enough. The rest just keep snaping off. The generic solder I'd used for years just would not adhere to the plates, I am really confused.
 

 

Taken from VR16S1 product page

NOTE:

  • For manual reflow we strongly suggest Pb63Sn37 solder paste. Poorer wetting of leadfree solder paste requires precise dispensing and LEDs placement.
  • The ultra thin solder mask/solder resist is somewhat fragile, especially in hot temperature during reflow process. Avoid any hard and sharp objects on it.
  • Solder mask is rated to survive multiple reflows up to 300°C only for a brief moment (< 30 seconds). Prolonged high temperature exposure above 240°C will make it less white while still functional
  • Soldering LED wire can be difficult because the board is very thermally conductive.
  • Fixes: Use more powerful solder iron with as big as possible tip, pre-heat the base (or the case/host), use intermediate wire (solder a short slave wire to the pad first).

Note: I successfuly solder all the boards using 30 watt solder iron with board temperature of 150C or...

200 watt solder iron at base temp of 100C. I use cheap Dekko 30 - 200 watt iron with big pointy (blunt) tip. My more expensive 20 - 130 watt Hakko Presto is too weak after I modified it to finer tip. 

 

- Clemence

 

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maukka wrote:
I’ve got a lot of CRI measurements from the E21As Clemence sent me here for those interested:

https://imgur.com/a/xP55G

The results are very good. Super neutral on small currents, rosier on higher. CCT isn’t really affected.

Thanks Maukka, I updated the product pictures using your charts. I hope at higher current the result would not differ by much.

- Clemence

ma tumba
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clemence wrote:

Taken from VR16S1 product page



Thanks Clemence, this is some sort of eye opener.
ma tumba
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maukka wrote:
I’ve got a lot of CRI measurements from the E21As Clemence sent me here for those interested:

https://imgur.com/a/xP55G

The results are very good. Super neutral on small currents, rosier on higher. CCT isn’t really affected.

Have you ever measured Nichia 083B same way?

virencelights
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how close is this 6500k 9080 to the BBL ?
thanks.

Elzetta Bones.

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HCRI9080 wrote:
how close is this 6500k 9080 to the BBL ? thanks.

Very close, only -0,0011. Almost inline with BBL. It’s rosier as current goes up

- Clemence

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HCRI9080 wrote:
how close is this 6500k 9080 to the BBL ? thanks.

See post 1211 from Maukka.

maukka
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clemence wrote:
HCRI9080 wrote:
how close is this 6500k 9080 to the BBL ? thanks.

Very close, only -0,0011. Almost inline with BBL. It’s rosier as current goes up

That’s the 5000K. The 6500K is 0.0004. But same difference, as neutral as it gets.

clemence
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maukka wrote:
clemence wrote:
HCRI9080 wrote:
how close is this 6500k 9080 to the BBL ? thanks.

Very close, only -0,0011. Almost inline with BBL. It’s rosier as current goes up

That’s the 5000K. The 6500K is 0.0004. But same difference, as neutral as it gets.

Those many pictures confused my eyes. Yes, it’s even closer at only 0,0004

- Clemence

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Hi Maukka,

Do you think now Nichia is using TM30 as their reference?

- Clemence

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Just to add to the soldering discussion:
For soldering wires to the MCPCB pads, I use a faulty 60W soldering iron.
It doesn’t stop heating, keeps going hotter and hotter, until it glows dark red (you can see it when you turn the lights off). When you then touch some solder wire, the solder evaporates or something, at least it’s not on the soldering tip.
But holding the tip on the mcpcb, and then adding solder works perfectly, like working on a normal pcb.

maukka
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I believe the Rfx00 rank is just their own nomenclature and nothing to do with the TM30 Rf/Rg. The Ra, R9-R15 are just part of the CRI CIE method.

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Schoki wrote:
Just to add to the soldering discussion: For soldering wires to the MCPCB pads, I use a faulty 60W soldering iron. It doesn’t stop heating, keeps going hotter and hotter, until it glows dark red (you can see it when you turn the lights off). When you then touch some solder wire, the solder evaporates or something, at least it’s not on the soldering tip. But holding the tip on the mcpcb, and then adding solder works perfectly, like working on a normal pcb.

You just made a portable hot plate(tip) hahaha

- Clemence

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thanks.

clemence wrote:
HCRI9080 wrote:
how close is this 6500k 9080 to the BBL ? thanks.

Very close, only -0,0011. Almost inline with BBL. It’s rosier as current goes up

- Clemence

Elzetta Bones.

clemence
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maukka wrote:
I believe the Rfx00 rank is just their own nomenclature and nothing to do with the TM30 Rf/Rg. The Ra, R9-R15 are just part of the CRI (CIE95) method.

Thanks for clarifying. I also notice the 3 steps Macadam Optisolis adheres closer to the BBL than earlier Nichias.
As a side note: looks like the Optisolis use two different blue pumps (or violet), 420nm for CW and 440nm for WW

- Clemence

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I received my sm203 E21A today and immediately put it in an S2+, together with a 4×7135 biscotti driver. The reflow went well and soldering the wires was hard (as expected), I had to hold my 60W soldering iron on the pcb until the whole pill heated up.

The tint is not as orange as I thought it would be, but it is the warmest I’ve seen yet from a led and it’s very easy on the eyes, I think this will be my bedside lamp from now on. The beam shape with an orange peel reflector is pretty good.
Some pics (tint is warmer in reality):



ma tumba
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Spent an hour playing with the 3k, 4k and 5k e21s. Somehow the soldering just went easily this time.

Now I can say that the funny patterns of tint shift I reported earlier were not real. Each cct has very visible tint shift. On the other hand, it is much less of a problem to me as compared to that of 219b 9080. First, the shift is from neutral to green rather than from rosy to green, and this is much less annoying. Second, the green rim starts developing considerably farther from axis, so it would be better cut off in a mule head.

Overall, I am very pleased with the 3k and 5k, not that much withthe 4k but I think this is just me. I just prefer either incand like or true daylight tints.

Will be ordering the 6.5k and 2k versions right after I got the incoming drivers and finalize the host.

Clemence, thanks much again for making these leds and the boards available!

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