Finally the XHP70.2 emerges!

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noboneshotdog
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Has anyone tried the XHP70.2 in 4000K flavor yet.

I currently have the Olight R50 Pro with a XHP70 5000k, but don’t like the blue corona it puts off.

Was hoping XHP70.2 4000K might have a more consistent beam.

Can someone please tell me thier experience with this led before I make the swap.

Or any suggestions on a neutral to warm tint that I should consider for this light.

Thanks

Thier ain’t no bones in a hot dog. F. York

Texas_Ace
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I know that the 4000k XP-L2 is far superior to the 5000k version I tried. The xhp70.2 is simply 4x xp-l2 dies put together, so I assume the results would be similar.

I am hoping to try some xhp70.2 myself before long.

Jerommel
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Guys, i have a burning question:

When i saw FT has the XHP70.2 N4 3A in stock, i jumped the gun and ordered 3 of them for my MT03, because i really like the 3A tint.
My question is how big the difference in output is compared to the P2 binned versions.
Is it significant?
Should i have waited for an opportunity to get the P2 bin?

(I also got some TIRs for them by the way, i don’t think they will be nice with regular reflectors.)

Texas_Ace
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Honestly you will not be able to tell the difference between bins. At this level of output the human eye is just not sensitive to notice unless you had them side by side.

Jerommel
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Do you have some ballpark percentages?

Anyway, i think i’ll stick with these then.
Thanks for answering.

Tom E
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Jerommel wrote:
Do you have some ballpark percentages? Anyway, i think i'll stick with these then. Thanks for answering.

Should be easy to tell from the CREE specs - I do this all the time. I think the percentage increase going up bin to bin is basically linear for higher amps, because the CREE specs will only show you low amp levels.

JasonWW
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I think there is about a +-7% for each output bin. I’m not sure what the tolerance is for the 70.2. Anyway, you could get 1 emitter at the high end of N4 and 1 at the low end of P2 and measure almost the same output. Or they could be at opposite ends and you’d measure a big difference. You never know for sure unless you actually measure them.

I had a xhp70 N4 1A and a N4 1C and they were 6% off from each other. One of them was like an extra boost of power. You couldn’t see it with your eye, but you could measure it. It gave me a free 17 more meters of throw.

You might get lucky with a higher bin or you might not. So I wouldn’t worry too much about it.

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The_Driver
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You did measure different tints though. If you didn’t measure using a calibrated luxmeter with an expensive Filter, the difference might be due to the sensitivity to different wavelengths of your specific lux meter.
Slight differences in how LEDs are soldered (the thickness of the solder plays a role there) might also make a difference.
So in the end one can never be quite sure. Sad

JasonWW
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I would not think the tint of 1A and 1C would make much difference. They looked identical to my eyes. Wouldn’t it make more sense that they were just at different ends of the N4 binning range?

(Xhp70 output tolerance is +-7%)

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

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Enderman
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Texas_Ace wrote:
Honestly you will not be able to tell the difference between bins. At this level of output the human eye is just not sensitive to notice unless you had them side by side.

This is the wrong mindset.
If you say there is no visible difference between N4 and P2, then you can also say there is no visible difference between N2 and N4, then you say there is no visible difference between M4 and N2, etc etc etc.
Using that logic you will end up buying the lowest possible bin because there is no visible difference from the next one.

As a flashlight enthusiast forum, I would expect people to go for the best possible option, not “oh this one is good enough, no big difference”.
Yes there is a difference, and all the small things do add up in the end.

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Enderman wrote:
Texas_Ace wrote:
Honestly you will not be able to tell the difference between bins. At this level of output the human eye is just not sensitive to notice unless you had them side by side.

This is the wrong mindset.
If you say there is no visible difference between N4 and P2, then you can also say there is no visible difference between N2 and N4, then you say there is no visible difference between M4 and N2, etc etc etc.
Using that logic you will end up buying the lowest possible bin because there is no visible difference from the next one.

As a flashlight enthusiast forum, I would expect people to go for the best possible option, not “oh this one is good enough, no big difference”.
Yes there is a difference, and all the small things do add up in the end.


The Difference betwenn N2 and P2 is at least 7% and maximum 14%. Its the wrong conclusion if you say: if there is no differnence between N4 and P2 there will be no difference between the lowest and hightest bin.
Jason only said that there could be a difference between two binnings but there could be no difference too. Thats the normal shifting in the binning steps.
Tom E
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I've spent a lot of time and money to get an extra 5% output here and there, so a 5% or 7% to me is a big deal. I wouldn't down play 5%, but paying an extra $50 or so to get 5-7% (qty 3 of XHP70.2's) - you gotta think bout it. For a MT-03, 7% can go from 10,000 lumens to 10,700 - not a substantial gain but a bump none-the-less. For a MT03 though, it's worth popping out that pathetically thin MCPCB (1.5 mm at best) and checking the grease and surface under it. Mine had a drop or so that maybe covered only ~50% of the surface directly under the LED's, and the copper was tarnished from no surface protection - not good.

I tore the LED wires getting them out because of poor clearances, and screws holding the MCPCB down can stripped threads in the shelf, and the screws on the battery tube were severely stripped and angled in, damaging the threads.

My MT03 needs repairs to even make it moddable, and all these things you might not know about unless you looked.

Enderman
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Wieselflinkpro wrote:

The Difference betwenn N2 and P2 is at least 7% and maximum 14%. Its the wrong conclusion if you say: if there is no differnence between N4 and P2 there will be no difference between the lowest and hightest bin.
Jason only said that there could be a difference between two binnings but there could be no difference too. Thats the normal shifting in the binning steps.

You don’t understand, the difference between N4 and P2 is basically the same as the difference as N2 to N4 or M4 to N2.

So if your logic is “why pay more for P2 when you won’t see a difference from N4” then you can also say “why pay more for N4 when you won’t see a difference from N2” and then “why pay more for N2 when you won’t see a difference from M4”

Do you get what I’m saying?

Texas_Ace
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The point is not that you should not aim for the highest bin. Of course you want the highest bin that you can practically get.

The key there is practically get. Getting the positive top level bin is almost always harder then going 1 step down. You are also generally going to pay more and be limited in the tint selection, usually cool white only.

For example Cutter generally had the best bins you will find but they are a nightmare to order from, the shipping makes the prices insane unless you are ordering in bulk and well, the communication is basically non-existent.

All of these things factored together, yeah I have no problem at all going with 1 step down for the best to get an LED that is the tint I want, from a supplier I want and at a better price.

This rule applies to most things in life honestly. Taking 1 step down in most things nets you a rather large increase in the bang-to-buck ratio.

Taking further steps down will end up giving diminishing returns of course.

This is also a budget flashlight site, so bang for the buck is always at the top of peoples lists when it comes to shopping.

scotlarock
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Probably a stupid question; when reflowing an XHP 70.2, what is the proper orientation of the emitter on the mcpcb?
Thanks in advance.

Texas_Ace
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On page 25 of the data sheet you can see it explained: http://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-XHP702.pdf

The Anode is V+ and cathode is Ground.

scotlarock
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Hey T A, thanks for the quick help!

Jerommel
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Tom E wrote:

I’ve spent a lot of time and money to get an extra 5% output here and there, so a 5% or 7% to me is a big deal. I wouldn’t down play 5%, but paying an extra $50 or so to get 5-7% (qty 3 of XHP70.2’s) – you gotta think bout it. For a MT-03, 7% can go from 10,000 lumens to 10,700 – not a substantial gain but a bump none-the-less. For a MT03 though, it’s worth popping out that pathetically thin MCPCB (1.5 mm at best) and checking the grease and surface under it. Mine had a drop or so that maybe covered only ~50% of the surface directly under the LED’s, and the copper was tarnished from no surface protection – not good.


I tore the LED wires getting them out because of poor clearances, and screws holding the MCPCB down can stripped threads in the shelf, and the screws on the battery tube were severely stripped and angled in, damaging the threads.


My MT03 needs repairs to even make it moddable, and all these things you might not know about unless you looked.


I’m doing a total overhaul.
…but the progress is a bit like a slug in winter for now…
I got some nice TIR optic from Kiriba-ru to replace the reflector (less spill and eliminating the tint shift) and looking to replace the LED shelf with 4mm thick copper disc, but someone with a lathe will have to cut out the 1.5mm thin shelf…
Driver will be doing around 6.5 or 7 Amperes per XHP70.2
So that’s 120 Watts or more.
I’ll probably get some VTC5A batteries for it too.
Hoping to hit the 15000 Lumen. Smile (okay 14000 maybe..)
Tom E
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So there's a TIR optic for a XHP70/XHP70.2? Interesting... I'm thinking ~8 XHP70.2's in a BLF GT smile.

In the MT03, vertical space is tight. Yea, the shelf is terribly thin. It's a waste of the thick metal body - just seems out of place for the walls to be so thick and the shelf so thin, and those thick plated copper plates between the cells and driver - nonsensical.

I replaced the stripped head screws on the battery tube today - had to use a dremel cutting blade to but slits in the tops of them, then use a regular screw driver to remove them. 

Also drilled out clearance for the LED wires through the shelf, eliminated all the rough edges.

The BLF SRK v3.4 HQ driver is reflowed, set up as FET+1 using the Hyperion FET. Using DEL's new C3 and C4 caps in the design to tone down spikes the 7135 takes in these 2S high amp setups.

Jerommel
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Tom E wrote:

So there’s a TIR optic for a XHP70/XHP70.2? Interesting… I’m thinking ~8 XHP70.2’s in a BLF GT smile.


In the MT03, vertical space is tight. Yea, the shelf is terribly thin. It’s a waste of the thick metal body – just seems out of place for the walls to be so thick and the shelf so thin, and those thick plated copper plates between the cells and driver – nonsensical.

Yeah, very odd they did that.
I guess they wanted heat management for the driver?
They could better have used bigger FETs, diodes and coils i.m.o.
But by reducing the thickness of those discs i could gain a couple of milimeters vertical space.
Also the TIRs are a little less deep than the reflectors, and there’s some space between the optics and the glass lens too.
I think i can make the modifications fit.
Quote:

I replaced the stripped head screws on the battery tube today – had to use a dremel cutting blade to but slits in the tops of them, then use a regular screw driver to remove them. 


Also drilled out clearance for the LED wires through the shelf, eliminated all the rough edges.


I was thinking to make centre a hole in the copper shelf for the wires.
I’ll be using 18AWG.
That centre hole can be large too, since the thermal path goes to the outside.
For now i have only bypassed all springs, with a double bypass for the + spring of the battery compartment, i removed the inner spring.
Anyway, i have all the parts to continue the mod now, so i should go ahead soon.
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i have ordered a few xhp70.2 from digikey, and disappointly have burnt up 2x, i am coming to the conclusion that these are much more current sensitive in my setup than the xhp70, and probably different from one to another. i noticed the meter to spike pass 18A both times (narsil ramping).

first, using a s70s as a host with TA FET Narsil driver, updated with SIR404, 16awg, spring bypass, littokalas

second, same setup but with reduced 22awg (this setup works with my L6, but it only draws 16A)

i am not sure how to get these to work at +18A, any suggestions?
has anyone found the max safe current?

https://www.digikey.com/short/31d2jm

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LedNLight has some XHP70.2 TIRs listed. There are more manufacturers of XHP70 compatible TIRs, but I haven’t collected the data.

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solRNY wrote:
i have ordered a few xhp70.2 from digikey, and disappointly have burnt up 2x, i am coming to the conclusion that these are much more current sensitive in my setup than the xhp70, and probably different from one to another. i noticed the meter to spike pass 18A both times (narsil ramping).

first, using a s70s as a host with TA FET Narsil driver, updated with SIR404, 16awg, spring bypass, littokalas

second, same setup but with reduced 22awg (this setup works with my L6, but it only draws 16A)

i am not sure how to get these to work at +18A, any suggestions?
has anyone found the max safe current?

https://www.digikey.com/short/31d2jm


Poor re-flow / heat sinking maybe? Here is my SD75 2S2P bypassed battery carrier, Narsil Lexel built T/A SIR800 pulling just over 20 amps on VTC5’s, so that’s what I run in it. No problems so far…

My VTC5A’s turned the 70.2 instantly blue at 22-23 amps IIRC? Shocked

I measured between the driver lead and the LED.

KB1428 “Live Life WOT

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At extreme currents like 18A everything has to be perfect to keep the LED alive. That is a truly insane amount of power for such a small comportment. Over 120W worth of power to be exact!

To be honest I am impressed that they work at all at those currents. I would never expect it to.

Dropping the current down to 10-12A is what I would personally do. Above that you will reach a point of exponentially more heat and less extra lumens as power increases.

Tom E
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I measured 17.9A at the tail with a clamp meter on my L6 and it's surviving so far. The cells will drop pretty quick at this rate, and the heat is a problem of course. On LK cells w/solder top, it started at 9,100 lumens, dropped to 8,230 in 30 secs.

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you guys are nuts lol.

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I have over (12) XHP70/70.2 lights in my keeper (never to sell) collection, and this little UTorch UT02 is one of my favorites!

Machined out the head for a 32mm Maxtoch DTP board, 70.2 P2-1A Lexel built T/A Narsil driver, with reasonable out put 9amps at turn on and just over 8 amps around 30-40 seconds, or how ever long it took to try and grab the shot of the clamp meter in 3 attempts… Big Smile

KB1428 “Live Life WOT

solRNY
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KawiBoy1428 wrote:
Poor re-flow / heat sinking maybe?

i am not sure how to know if the reflow is any good, maybe when i “bop” the led it created voids in the solder. i will try again. without “bopping” the led. any reflow tips?

maybe after this i will learn to accept less than insane maximum Smile

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solRNY wrote:
KawiBoy1428 wrote:
Poor re-flow / heat sinking maybe?

i am not sure how to know if the reflow is any good, maybe when i “bop” the led it created voids in the solder. i will try again. without “bopping” the led. any reflow tips?

maybe after this i will learn, and “NEVERBig Smile accept less than insane maximum Smile


(Had to fix that for you Wink ^)

I BOP them too, maybe too little solder and BOPPING does no good? I usually have squirt outs at 4 points after BOPPING?

Did the LED go blue before Poofing? Or was it an instant Poof?

If it was a long slow burn out (meaning not an instant Poof) maybe thermal contact was insufficient?

Please don’t get discouraged, It’s a bummer, yes, but 8-9,000lm out of these 70.2’s after all, is quite something to behold!! Wink Thumbs Up

KB1428 “Live Life WOT

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when i bop the led some solder did squirt out, i then push the led a tad to see if it will pull itself back onto the pad. i wonder instead of bopping to squirt, i would bop and hold till the led cools down for better contact.

the led did go blue before “poofing”, long enough for me to realize “oh sh!t” that is not the color i want.

i wish Narsil have a ramp speed setting, current setting is too fast for me to stop it from going full power, a much slower speed would allow me to stop once i see some blue tint.

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