Highest capabilities-to-bulk small light

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Agro
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Highest capabilities-to-bulk small light

Hey, as some of you know, I’m into small lights that give a lot of light.
What I’m primarily interested in is capabilities to bulk, where I define bulk as volume * weight and capabilities – the entire brightness vs. runtime curve.

So in layman terms I’m looking for flashlights that are small, yet give a lot of light for a long time.
For quite a while my target was a shortened convoy S2+ like
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/53313?page=1
I even bought a controller for it already.
Today I learned of DQG Tiny 18650’s existence and I’m puzzled. Comparing both converted to 3*XP-L2, DQG has:

  • 3x runtime for levels that are not thermally limited
  • comparable runtime for levels that are thermally limited
  • very roughly 40% larger volume
  • 30% higher weight
  • If I carry a spare cell (I often do), ~33% higher weight
  • same minimum brightness
  • slightly higher peak brightness (depends on battery; top choices range from a bit higher (VTC6) to slightly lower (NCR18650GA))

While 18350 has enough capacity for my regular uses, having a headroom would enable me to use higher modes more. It is not a huge deal, though nice to have.
Actually I still think that S2+ is better for me than DQG. I’m not sure though and I need to think it through.
But here’s the question:
Can you suggest something that’s even better than these in terms of capabilities to bulk, while providing:

  • at least 2000 turn-on lm
  • at least 1000 thermally stable lm
  • at least 3 hours of runtime at 100 lm
  • does not cost $300 or more
    ?

Is it possible to mod DQG Tiny to get even smaller size? Are there compatible battery tubes that would make it even smaller?
Are there other lights that might serve me better?

The Miller
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Thermally stable at 1000 lumens in a small light?
Curious myself Wink

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The Miller wrote:
Thermally stable at 1000 lumens in a small light?
Curious myself Wink
Zebralight SC600 maybe? It has a unibody construction with heatsink fins. Heat dissipation is excellent. They are temperature controlled, but I suspect one of the XHP50 variants could sustain 1000 lumens. Downside is those use diffuser lenses to break up the XHP50 x-shaped beam pattern so are very floody. Also Zebralights are expensive and notoriously difficult to mod.

Besides that I think a Jaxman E2L triple could maintain over 1000 lumens. The head will get hot, but you should be able to comfortably hold it by the body.

Agro
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Considering that EDC X1 is reported (by the maker, though I see that people trust him) as thermally stable at 1800 lm, I thought 1000 in a 30% smaller host wouldn’t be extreme….
is it?

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The idea of “thermally stable 1000 lm” was “A careful build is OK thermally”, but I used a number only to have a strict definition. Maybe the way I defined it was wrong.

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MecArmy PT16 Quad XP-L W2 2B at 3041 lumens out the front running a 1000mAh 18500 cell with ramping firmware.

Tiny but mighty. Just like I like em! Big Smile

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Quote: “Highest capabilities-to-bulk small light
Hey, as some of you know, I’m into small lights that give a lot of light. … … …”

This is in may area of interest. We all know that we can not have lots of the following three things: runtime and power and compact size, at the same time. One must be sacrificed.

I am interested in most power per size, at the highest setting. I can always select a lower setting to get more runtime and less heat from the light.

My current somewhat smaller size/power choices are:

P60vn Quad XP-L HD 2 cell host Cryos Cu head, 4,300 lumens.
Manker MK34Vn XP-L, 7,650 lumens.
Nitecore TM06Svn 4 x XHP50.2, 9,500 lumens.

I am always looking to see what else there is that fits this bill that is a must-have. Smile

Rev 22:15

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The DQG Tiny 26650 3rd is in that spirit… Of course it’s bigger then a 18350 light but still very pocketable. No idea regarding the “thermally stable” thing though. Runtime is amazing – something like 8 hours at 300lm (medium) and 2:30h on high at 900lm.

How about Astrolux S41/42?

Firelight2
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patmurris wrote:
The DQG Tiny 26650 3rd is in that spirit… Of course it’s bigger then a 18350 light but still very pocketable. No idea regarding the “thermally stable” thing though. Runtime is amazing – something like 8 hours at 300lm (medium) and 2:30h on high at 900lm.

How about Astrolux S41/42?

I agree that the DQG TIny 26650 3rd is an excellent light. I have one and love it.

However, even though it’s the smallest 26650 light available I’d still rate it as much too big for pocket EDC.

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DB Custom wrote:
MecArmy PT16 Quad XP-L W2 2B at 3041 lumens out the front running a 1000mAh 18500 cell with ramping firmware.

Tiny but mighty. Just like I like em! Big Smile


Superb upgrade Smile
It’s a shame there are no really good 18500 batteries. Though as HKJ predicts, they may show up soon.
Nevertheless that head is quite large and I have a feeling that a 24 mm triple would be only slightly less powerful with significantly smaller size. DQG Tiny is ~8% larger, yet it takes 18650.
How are PT16 thermals?
Agro
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richbuff wrote:
Quote: “Highest capabilities-to-bulk small light
Hey, as some of you know, I’m into small lights that give a lot of light. … … …”

This is in may area of interest. We all know that we can not have lots of the following three things: runtime and power and compact size, at the same time. One must be sacrificed.

I am interested in most power per size, at the highest setting. I can always select a lower setting to get more runtime and less heat from the light.

My current somewhat smaller size/power choices are:

P60vn Quad XP-L HD 2 cell host Cryos Cu head, 4,300 lumens.
Manker MK34Vn XP-L, 7,650 lumens.
Nitecore TM06Svn 4 x XHP50.2, 9,500 lumens.

I am always looking to see what else there is that fits this bill that is a must-have. Smile

I guess all your smaller ones are larger than what I seek Smile
Though yes, they definitely offer good power to size.

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Look what Hank (from intl-outdoor.com) just posted as a teaser:
http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1136778#comment-1136778

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patmurris wrote:
The DQG Tiny 26650 3rd is in that spirit… Of course it’s bigger then a 18350 light but still very pocketable. No idea regarding the “thermally stable” thing though. Runtime is amazing – something like 8 hours at 300lm (medium) and 2:30h on high at 900lm.

Indeed amazing light. I started to think whether I need to buy just 1 light or 2 Wink

patmurris wrote:
How about Astrolux S41/42?

Considered that quite hard. Especially with a lowly 18350, quad has very little to offer, be it performance or efficiency. It lost to S2+ for me.
Agro
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djozz wrote:
Look what Hank (from intl-outdoor.com) just posted as a teaser:
http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1136778#comment-1136778
!{width:25%}http://intl-outdoor.com/images/20170607175636.png!

Interesting, thank you. I’ll surely wait for it, though I suspect that improved performance over DQG triple won’t beat the size difference for me. I’d love to be wrong though.
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Agro wrote:
djozz wrote:
Look what Hank (from intl-outdoor.com) just posted as a teaser:
http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1136778#comment-1136778
!{width:25%}http://intl-outdoor.com/images/20170607175636.png!

Interesting, thank you. I’ll surely wait for it, though I suspect that improved performance over DQG triple won’t beat the size difference for me. I’d love to be wrong though.

Just wait for it, the DQG lights are awesome but always have quality thingies going on, I’m expecting a bit better from intl-outdoor flashlights. The user interface and performance of the D4 is unknown for now, but if it turns out to be good too it will win me over, despite the 5mm length difference.
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Today I learned of DQG Tiny 18650’s existence and I’m puzzled. Comparing both converted to 3*XP-L2, DQG has:

Is it possible to mod DQG Tiny to get even smaller size?

==not really

Are there compatible battery tubes that would make it even smaller?

==no, it doesn;t screw together like that.. you would have to make it on a lathe or something, then add the polarity-protection if you wanted that

—i personally hate 18350 batteries

Are there other lights that might serve me better?

==manker U11 is decent and cheap, not quite as small as the dqg but has charging built in, possibly better heat dissipation

==the dqg tiny 18650, i have had 2 of them fail, one because of the switch, the 2nd some mystery fading out, then finally just stopped

==the heat dissipation is not very good in it
lowest light levels not really very low, like 65 lumens or 85

==you are not going to get 2000 lumen in something this small, even 1000 is pushing the heat dissipation limits
and battery life, and single-LED capacity, and battery max current draw

wle

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Agro wrote:
DB Custom wrote:
MecArmy PT16 Quad XP-L W2 2B at 3041 lumens out the front running a 1000mAh 18500 cell with ramping firmware.

Tiny but mighty. Just like I like em! Big Smile


Superb upgrade Smile
It’s a shame there are no really good 18500 batteries. Though as HKJ predicts, they may show up soon.
Nevertheless that head is quite large and I have a feeling that a 24 mm triple would be only slightly less powerful with significantly smaller size. DQG Tiny is ~8% larger, yet it takes 18650.
How are PT16 thermals?

What do you mean, there are no really good 18500’s? There’s Panasonic NCR18500A 2040mAH if you want capacity with decent output, or Efest Purple 1000mAH if you want a higher output current. If you’re looking for both in one cell, then I think you’re right. There are none that I know of.

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wle wrote:
Today I learned of DQG Tiny 18650’s existence and I’m puzzled. Comparing both converted to 3*XP-L2, DQG has:

Is it possible to mod DQG Tiny to get even smaller size?

==not really

Are there compatible battery tubes that would make it even smaller?

==no, it doesn;t screw together like that.. you would have to make it on a lathe or something, then add the polarity-protection if you wanted that

—i personally hate 18350 batteries

Are there other lights that might serve me better?

==manker U11 is decent and cheap, not quite as small as the dqg but has charging built in, possibly better heat dissipation

==the dqg tiny 18650, i have had 2 of them fail, one because of the switch, the 2nd some mystery fading out, then finally just stopped

==the heat dissipation is not very good in it
lowest light levels not really very low, like 65 lumens or 85

==you are not going to get 2000 lumen in something this small, even 1000 is pushing the heat dissipation limits
and battery life, and single-LED capacity, and battery max current draw

wle


Thanks for the answer. Yesterday night, while searching for DQG Tiny I saw some thread mentioning that it is compatible with S2+ tubes. Thinking about it today, I thought it seemed weird and wanted to ask, but can’t find it. I guess that being tired, I confused something. That was probably another light.

As to the lowest mode – a triple mod will enable picking about any small enough driver, so this is not a problem.

2000 lm:
There are many DD S2+ triples out there and some of them 18350. I guess they easily exceed this output level, though obviously for a short time.
I find it weird, I’ve seen a few high-power mods and the lowest usable DD runtime for a small light (like 18350 S2+ ;)) is 30 seconds. A non-extreme DD triple in DQG Tiny 18650 – I read that in 10 seconds it’s too hot to touch. I wonder why is it so…
Together with a large battery (which sinks some heat too), can it really have 3x lower thermal capacity? Or maybe thermal transfer from the head to the rest of the light is so wrong? Is thermal transfer so good that it’s actually reasonably warm inside, but too hot outside? Or maybe there’s another reason?

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DavidEF wrote:
Agro wrote:
DB Custom wrote:
MecArmy PT16 Quad XP-L W2 2B at 3041 lumens out the front running a 1000mAh 18500 cell with ramping firmware.

Tiny but mighty. Just like I like em! Big Smile


Superb upgrade Smile
It’s a shame there are no really good 18500 batteries. Though as HKJ predicts, they may show up soon.
Nevertheless that head is quite large and I have a feeling that a 24 mm triple would be only slightly less powerful with significantly smaller size. DQG Tiny is ~8% larger, yet it takes 18650.
How are PT16 thermals?

What do you mean, there are no really good 18500’s? There’s Panasonic NCR18500A 2040mAH if you want capacity with decent output, or Efest Purple 1000mAH if you want a higher output current. If you’re looking for both in one cell, then I think you’re right. There are none that I know of.

Yes, that’s actually what I meant. Panasonic NCR18500A….well, I was too harsh really. If one’s current draw is low enough for this cell to handle – it is a good one.
Efest Purple – I can’t call it good. Aspire 18350 offers both higher current and higher capacity while being much smaller.
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I have some of those new Aspire 18350’s on the way, so I will soon know how they compare. To date though, the 18500 Efest is top dog in a light in my own testing.

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PeterRamish wrote:
Firelight2 wrote:
patmurris wrote:
The DQG Tiny 26650 3rd is in that spirit… Of course it’s bigger then a 18350 light but still very pocketable. No idea regarding the “thermally stable” thing though. Runtime is amazing – something like 8 hours at 300lm (medium) and 2:30h on high at 900lm.

I agree that the DQG TIny 26650 3rd is an excellent light. I have one and love it.

However, even though it’s the smallest 26650 light available I’d still rate it as much too big for pocket EDC.

+1 !!! The DQG Tiny 26650 is the best kept secret on BLF.. I have one and it runs for 7 hours at 350 lm with absolute flat regulation, and when you need it there is Turbo to 2,500 lm… It is just an amazing light. I EDC it,… and love it.
It is not big for a 26650, in fact it is just as its name says “TINY”..


Don’t they also have a 26350 size “TINY” or is that a different light I’m thinking of?

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That is a BTU light

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I would consider carry a 18350 light
and having a 18650 tube and battery spare to carry with you

the extra 18650 tube adds very little to the whole weight

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Lexel wrote:
I would consider carry a 18350 light
and having a 18650 tube and battery spare to carry with you

the extra 18650 tube adds very little to the whole weight


18350 light + 2 spares is about equal weight and energy to 18650 light w/out spares. Somewhat higher bulk. If you need less energy, 18350 wins. If more – 18650. For me less is going to happen far more often then more and furthermore I tend to always have a spare (In case I forgot to recharge. Happened once.) so 18350 just seems better.

Carrying 2 tubes doesn’t seem worthwhile.

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BTW how about human lathe shortening of DQG Tiny? Smile
Any specific challenges?

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Agro wrote:
BTW how about human lathe shortening of DQG Tiny? Smile
Any specific challenges?

OOH… that sounds fun! Party

Sorry, I don’t know about “challenges” because I don’t have one of those. But I’d like to see you try it! Crazy

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The new Aspire 18350 cell should change a lot of things in small flashlights. With 1200mAh capacity as compared to 650mAh, and with high discharge capability as well, our small lights should see nice gains. I have some on the way to try out. My small Sinner 18350 triples will be quite happy! Smile

The specific challenge to shorten the tube of a DQG Tiny will be tube thickness. It would be best to cut the tube then cut new threads. The human lathe method, where the two cut off components of the tube are re-joined with a slip joint, might not work here due to the thin walls of the tube.

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DB Custom wrote:
The new Aspire 18350 cell should change a lot of things in small flashlights. With 1200mAh capacity as compared to 650mAh, and with high discharge capability as well, our small lights should see nice gains. I have some on the way to try out. My small Sinner 18350 triples will be quite happy! Smile

The specific challenge to shorten the tube of a DQG Tiny will be tube thickness. It would be best to cut the tube then cut new threads. The human lathe method, where the two cut off components of the tube are re-joined with a slip joint, might not work here due to the thin walls of the tube.


I have a DQG Tiny on the way and I’m digging deeper into this topic.
First, as a summary, I am aware of 3 people converting Tiny to triple:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/39827
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/46619
http://forum.fonarevka.ru/showthread.php?t=31935

Each of them adds information not available in others.
The last one contains the following image of the battery tube:
// Doesn’t show as image on the forum, you have to click, sorry…
http://forum.fonarevka.ru/picture.php?albumid=1062&pictureid=15180
Doesn’t look like ome could cut a new thread in the middle of a tube; the thread diameter seems just as large as the outer that of the knurling, if not larger.

Any suggestions?

BTW:

it seems that one could shorten the bezel by 1-2 mm…

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DQG Tiny modded to triple is the most compact you can get in 18650 format. If you run it with a FET driver at max power peak output should be north of 2000 lumens.

However, the downside of this is the DQG has no heatsinking and its head is very small. I have very similar modded DQG Tiny III 18650 triple XPL and it gets HOT. So hot that I had to limit output to 3 amps and even then it can’t run at that power for long.

Some other ideas:
1. I modded a Sunwayman C10R with triple XPL and FET driver. As a host this was a nice choice since it has a decent head with some heatsink fins. The stock light runs on one CR123/16340, but I managed to fit an 18500 in mine. At peak output on a quality IMR 18500 it’s as bright as a FET driven 18650 triple, but is substantially smaller and lighter than even a DQG Tiny 18650 and takes longer to heat up to the point where it’s too hot to touch. This is quite an ambitious mod though… definitely not for first time modders.

2. How about a Jaxman E2L host with triple XPL HI or XPL2 a FET driver and 18500 battery tube. The downside of this setup is it is larger than a DQG Tiny 18650 and runs on a smaller battery. The upside is you can get much higher output because heatsinking is much better than the DQG. Also with the switch in the tail instead of the hot head, you can let the head get hotter while still being able to operate the light. This is also a relatively easy to assemble mod even for first-time modders.

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Firelight2 wrote:
DQG Tiny modded to triple is the most compact you can get in 18650 format. If you run it with a FET driver at max power peak output should be north of 2000 lumens.

However, the downside of this is the DQG has no heatsinking and its head is very small. I have very similar modded DQG Tiny III 18650 triple XPL and it gets HOT. So hot that I had to limit output to 3 amps and even then it can’t run at that power for long.

Some other ideas:
1. I modded a Sunwayman C10R with triple XPL and FET driver. As a host this was a nice choice since it has a decent head with some heatsink fins. The stock light runs on one CR123/16340, but I managed to fit an 18500 in mine. At peak output on a quality IMR 18500 it’s as bright as a FET driven 18650 triple, but is substantially smaller and lighter than even a DQG Tiny 18650 and takes longer to heat up to the point where it’s too hot to touch. This is quite an ambitious mod though… definitely not for first time modders.

2. How about a Jaxman E2L host with triple XPL HI or XPL2 a FET driver and 18500 battery tube. The downside of this setup is it is larger than a DQG Tiny 18650 and runs on a smaller battery. The upside is you can get much higher output because heatsinking is much better than the DQG. Also with the switch in the tail instead of the hot head, you can let the head get hotter while still being able to operate the light. This is also a relatively easy to assemble mod even for first-time modders.


It looks like Emisar D4 wouldn’s be far off these two when it comes to cooling while beating them nicely in size. Looks like a great light, can’t wait for it.
Personally I’m looking into entering a smaller class. DQG Tiny shortened to 18350, with a bezel shortened by 1 mm is 25% smaller. This triple would have lower volume than many 14500 lights despite 30% larger battery capacity and 3 LEDs.
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Hank just yesterday mentioned that there will be 18500 and 18350 tubes sold for the D4.

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