DBSAR Lantern Mini-Review: -Zanflare T1 (UPDATE: Second T1 failed!

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tatasal
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DBSAR wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
Would be fair though, to test it with the cell it came with and see if the problem still occurs. And for good measure, test it with a Japan made cell. Just to make sure it’s not your old battery.

I am running a new test now with a new LG HE4 high drain 2500mah cell. I turned it on now at 9:13pm EST, on maximum mode, with the tint set to roughly 4000K ( so that all the LEDs are on at the same time, (except for the red) and will let it run for 30 minutes then check the temperature of the cap, & the temp of the inside of the body of the battery tube.
- Will post the update in 40 minutes.

Have you checked the IR of the used, old cell that was used and is the subject of this op?

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10 minutes in, on a LG HE4, on high mode, with tint ramp set to roughly 4000K, the battery cap OUTSIDE surface is already at 40+ degrees Celsius and climbing:

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

DBSAR
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30 minutes in: -now the cap temperature has reached 52.1 degrees C.

for those who say that their T1 still has a “cold” battery cap after running on high for more than 20 minutes i call complete BS.

- I will let mine run with the HE4 cell for a hour or until the temp don’t rise anymore and measure the camp and the inside battery tube.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

Lightbringer
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DBSAR wrote:
it do not matter if its an old or new cell. the lantern has a flaw that directly heats up the cell with the LEDs. not everyone who may buy this lantern will understand what we know about Lithium Ion cells and LED lights. someday someone could put a cheap ultrafire cell on this lantern and it go bad. If a product i test has a potentially hazardous flaw, i will expose it and make sure people are aware of it.

Wellp, to be fair(er), that’s still not an end-of-the-world scenario.

I took an AT01 that I gave mum, and swapped the 3×AAA carrier with a crap 18650. It needed more pressure on the spring(s) to make better contact (ie, get rid of random flickering), and a Li cell fit the bill nicely. ‘Though I’m not going to waste a good cell in case she leaves the light on overnight and burns it down. Ruin the crap cell instead, y’know?

And so she did. Ran it down to vapors by leaving it on, several times. Later complained that after charging, the light would “get hot” when using it (then quickly “get dim” but no longer cook. I figure that pushing the LED with 4.2V after charging, vs 3.whatever when the AAAs would sag under load, was what was heating up. Mmmmmnope, not quite.

When charging it in my not-quite-almighty Opus at a paltry 700mA, the cell started getting quite warm. Okay, back to the AAAs.

Point being, with a lousy cell, pretty much any load would get the cell a-cooking.

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Lightbringer wrote:

Point being, with a lousy cell, pretty much any load would get the cell a-cooking.

see posts above using a 3 month old LG HE4 cell. it still gets very hot.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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Jerommel wrote:
Would be fair though, to test it with the cell it came with and see if the problem still occurs.

I initially thought that was exactly the case, that the come-with cell was cooking.

See my last post. Any crap cell will go supernova if it’s already predisposed to do so. Sure, heating it up might be what’s needed to push it over the edge, but that’s not the lantern’s fault. No decent cell would get that far.

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tatasal wrote:
User’s misuse/misapplication in the boon of all manufacturers… but if this all they consider all the time, no one can ever sell in the market anything anymore.

Adding to that, no manufacturer can predict and write all disclaimers as a safety measure.

Even the Mighty Maglite specifically excludes from its anything-warranty, alkaleaks taking a dump inside the light. You ruin the innards with one-a them, it’s on your dime.

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Lightbringer
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DBSAR wrote:
Lightbringer wrote:
Point being, with a lousy cell, pretty much any load would get the cell a-cooking.
see posts above using a 3 month old LG HE4 cell. it still gets very hot.

Just saw it now. Unno, I might try it to see.

Half-hour enough to get most of the way to steady-state?

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seems like with as many ppl got these lately on here, we might get a better sample to evaluate the problem?

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Lightbringer wrote:
DBSAR wrote:
Lightbringer wrote:
Point being, with a lousy cell, pretty much any load would get the cell a-cooking.
see posts above using a 3 month old LG HE4 cell. it still gets very hot.

Just saw it now. Unno, I might try it to see.

Half-hour enough to get most of the way to steady-state?

I’m still running it at max. will let ot go to a hour and test again. (right now i have the lantern sitting inside a metal 5 gallon pail just in case it goes thermo nuclear. Silly

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chinooker wrote:
seems like with as many ppl got these lately on here, we might get a better sample to evaluate the problem?

I only have this one T1 to test. (using different cells in it for testing atm.)

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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I ran my second test on MAX CW using a protected Panny 3400 which I've had in my Fenix for at least 18 months. I got 3hrs 45 mins before cutoff.

I'm without my IR gun at present so a very subjective "pull the cell and hold it" at 30, 60, 90 and 120 mins was the only option available to me. I also reached as far into the tube as I could with my little finger each time. With this test, my light and cell got noticeably warmer than my first test (with the OEM cell on MAX WW) but still not anywhere near what I'd call dangerous. But as I posted earlier, it is winter here (Oops EDIT, actually first day of Spring) with an ambient temp of around 14C (57F) and basic thermodynamic principles dictate that if I run it the same way in another 6 months, it will get much, much hotter.

Just to reiterate, my test was with the lantern hanging by the clip. When I get my IR gun back, I'll try it with the lantern sitting base down on an insulating surface such as a wooden benchtop.

Personally, I think arguments about new vs old cells, petrol vs kerosene and the like serve only to derail the thread. Den pointed out an inherently bad design and a potentially dangerous problem. Surely it is in everyone's best interest to be mindful of the consequences of an overheating Li-Ion cell and operate the lantern accordingly, rather than making excuses for the manufacturer.

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Den,
You know how bad luck comes in multiples. We all know you have had your share…….Is it possible it is just more bad luck and you got ‘a bad one’ that slipped through QC?

Im not a Pessimist …. just an Optimist with a lot of experience


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ok, after a hour running on the LG HE4 18650, as soon as i pulled the cell the battery indicated a 50.6 degrees Celsius after running the lantern on max-mode for that time. The inner surface of the battery tube read a 55.4 degrees Celsius. not “cold” by no means as one mentioned after running their T1 for a time period. Is it safe? probably with good high drain cells like the HE4 , 30Q, 25R, etc. but risky for the general consumer who may poke a cheapo un-branded/unknown cell, or used/damaged cell in this lantern. I will still stand by my safety concern decision on this as a design flaw, that the battery tube should NOT be the heat sink for the LEDs what so ever, in a lantern, which is usually run for hours at a time, unattended, either hanging in a tent, or on a table, and even when people are sleeping. Sure the good 18650 cells can handle 60+ decrees Celsius, but for constant times? We here know what cells are reall good, and what cells are not. The general public do not know these things.
I would never put a laptop pull,other old or used cell, or any unknown, cheap “ultrafire wrapped” cell in this lantern and use it on a tent or anywhere indoors. Ever with those cells. with a good, quality, branded known cell yes posibly, but not without concerns. I know extended heat duration degrade and shorten the life of lithium Ion cells over time.
to use its safe as we know the limits of good & bad cells, for the un-known consumer, not so much.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

DBSAR
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Coscar wrote:
Den, You know how bad luck comes in multiples. We all know you have had your share…….Is it possible it is just more bad luck and you got ‘a bad one’ that slipped through QC?

anything is possible, and wish i had more than one of these lanterns to test and evaluate for these reasons.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

tatasal
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There you go then…all’s well that ends well. Thanks for the experiment. Beer

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Den….
Not sure if you were referring to me about the ‘Cold’ tailcap, but what I said was mine was “cool as the outside of my fridge”….. almost kidding.
I should have explained…. Im in a RV and the AC isnt working in the Deep South so Nothing is Really cool much less cold. Also, I was a pipefitter and I am used to handling hot metal . All that considered, I just ran 1(of 3) of my T1s again for 45 minutes on high CW. I don’t have a way to test exact temp but the tailcap is warm but not too hot to keep your finger on it. If I was guessing, and I am, I would say it is probably less than 40C.

Im not a Pessimist …. just an Optimist with a lot of experience


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Coscar wrote:
Den…. Not sure if you were referring to me about the ‘Cold’ tailcap, but what I said was mine was “cool as the outside of my fridge”….. almost kidding. I should have explained…. Im in a RV and the AC isnt working in the Deep South so Nothing is Really cool much less cold. Also, I was a pipefitter and I am used to handling hot metal . All that considered, I just ran 1(of 3) of my T1s again for 45 minutes on high CW. I don’t have a way to test exact temp but the tailcap is warm but not too hot to keep your finger on it. If I was guessing, and I am, I would say it is probably less than 40C.

Sorry & my apologies on that, i thought you were serious when you said your T1 was staying “cool as a fridge door” , in comparison to the temps i was getting & testing from my T1 that forced one of my older 3000mah cells to gas the fumes-of-death, all i was trying to put forward here is that this lantern has a flawed design that heats its battery to a temperature that can be hazardous to anyone not educated on LiIon technology who puts an older or damaged cell in this lantern, that has what i consider a flawed design to have the LEDs use the battery center tube structure as their heat-sink.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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Lightbringer wrote:

I took an AT01 that I gave mum, and swapped the 3×AAA carrier with a crap 18650. It needed more pressure on the spring(s) to make better contact (ie, get rid of random flickering), and a Li cell fit the bill nicely. ‘Though I’m not going to waste a good cell in case she leaves the light on overnight and burns it down. Ruin the crap cell instead, y’know?

And so she did. Ran it down to vapors by leaving it on, several times. Later complained that after charging, the light would “get hot” when using it (then quickly “get dim” but no longer cook. I figure that pushing the LED with 4.2V after charging, vs 3.whatever when the AAAs would sag under load, was what was heating up. Mmmmmnope, not quite.

When charging it in my not-quite-almighty Opus at a paltry 700mA, the cell started getting quite warm. Okay, back to the AAAs.

Point being, with a lousy cell, pretty much any load would get the cell a-cooking.


What happened here was the cell got below 2.5v and started forming crystals inside. At this point the chemistry is ruined and the battery should be discarded.

You can’t just call a battery a “crap” cell. There are many different kinds. There are cheap batteries which are no name brand and low capacity, but work and charge just fine. Then there are cells, high quality and low quality alike, that have been overly discharged and the chemistry ruined making them a “crap” cell.

In your situation, if the flashlight did not have low voltage protection built-in, what you should have done was used a protected battery. That way if the light gets left on, the protection circuitry in the battery will automatically turn off power and prevent the battery from being ruined.

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Pete7874 wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
Another short-term fix would be to swap out the factory battery for a protected 18650.
My protected cells are too long to fit this lantern.

Some protected fit, some don’t. It depends on the length.

You also don’t have to screw the cap in all the way for the lantern to work. I’m not sure if that would cause a water leak around the seal, though.

If the tail cap spring is binding up and preventing the cap from screwing down all the way, you could probably cut the spring length in half so that it could screw down all the way.

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Wimpy Water wrote:
Coscar wrote:
………………. but if there is a heat problem then it seems it may be a QC problem and would not be occurring in ALL T1s.

I seriously hope you’re correct as I purchased one as soon as it came back into stock…..and it was dispatched near immediately, I did wonder why and now I know.


Now you know what?

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Coscar wrote:
DBSAR wrote:
someday someone could put a cheap ultrafire cell on this lantern and it go bad

and that would be “someone” at fault wouldnt it….. not the lantern?


It depends.

For instance, all vehicles owners manuals tell you exactly what type of fuel to use. “92 octane unleaded or higher”. If you put 87 in and the engine knocks, it’s not the manufacturers fault because they specified this. It’s the owners fault for not following the directions.

I don’t recall the T1 owner manual saying not to use a xxx brand 18650 as it may lead to fire. Was that in there? I don’t remember seeing it.

So as far as the user goes, they are able to use any type of 18650 battery that they want.

So Zanflare can either tell us specifically what batteries we should not use OR they can modify/change the lantern to make it safe to operate with any 18650 cell. I prefer the latter.

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Jerommel wrote:
Would be fair though, to test it with the cell it came with and see if the problem still occurs.
And for good measure, test it with a Japan made cell.
Just to make sure it’s not your old battery.

That would NOT be fair. It should be tested with a wide variety of cells. Edit: New and old. Whatever the typical person may have.

It is either safe with all 18650 (like all devices using that size battery on the market) or its not. Edit: It’s quite possible no device is 100% safe if you use a damaged or faulty battery that was over discharged or dropped, etc…

For the T1, it does NOT seem to be safe with ALL 18650. 99% of 18650 are probably not going to cause a problem, but that 1% sure can. Edit: This might be typical of all devices, the T1 might stand out due to it heating the batteries close to their upper operating temperature range.

DBSAR, have you contacted Gearbest or Zanflare and asked them about their temperature tests?

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I wonder if the corroded tail cap spring is partially to blame for high temps? It adds resistance, but it probably doest effect the temperature inside of the tube, does it?

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I am in contact with GearBest for this issue now. I personally would like propose for Version 2, but i heard the product life cycle is rather on its early stage.

JasonWW wrote:
.. DBSAR, have you contacted Gearbest or Zanflare and asked them about their temperature tests?

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Wimpy Water wrote:
I don’t know what Statutory Regulations in the US of A but in the UK there is Trading Standards Safety Regulations to be passed before an item can be sold to the general public.

Has the Zanflare T1 passed the UK technical and legal requirements for safety to ensure this product is safe and fit for purpose ?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/product-safety-for-manufacturers

I may have to report this to the appropriate authorities if it does overheat.
I’m not being a meanie but it is a duty to do so when there’s a slight possibility of people’s lives may be in jeopardy.

Report the Emisar D4 while your at it. It heats up to 215ºF (101C), if you accidentally put the flat top battery in backwards. Nobody seems to care about that… lol

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Wimpy Water wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
Wimpy Water wrote:
it was dispatched near immediately, I did wonder why and now I know.
Now you know what?

I believe it is clearly stated they had dispatched it very very quickly so now I know they had dispatched it very very quickly ?

Any more questions ?


I guess I didn’t understand what you were saying. I still don’t, but no big deal.
Wimpy Water wrote:
JasonWW wrote:

For the T1, it does NOT seem to be safe with ALL 18650. 99% of 18650 are probably not going to cause a problem, but that 1% sure can.


I highly doubt that is a fact, if so please provide substantial proof otherwise it is merely a personal conjecture surmising to be twaddle.
The numerical ratio is rhetorically-strong, but divorced from reality. A lonely impulse of delight….

I assume it’s fact because it has happened. I don’t think DBSAR is lying about all this. I believe him. Are you thinking he’s lying?

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Some lamps use the enclosed tube for heating in cold weather
Fenix CL25R

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Wimpy Water wrote:
JasonWW wrote:

I assume it’s fact because it has happened. I don’t think DBSAR is lying about all this. I believe him. Are you thinking he’s lying?

There you go again, contradicting yourself because assumptions are things which are accepted as true but with no substantial proof therefore it is not fact, so you cannot assume it is fact.

I totally believe DBSAR is telling the truth about the over-heating judging by his vehement comments but this issue may also be his T1 is a dud as there’s no report from others so whether or not that’s the case needs further investigation.
Attempting to target DBSAR’s findings is not helping other people, attempting to find the truth on the other hand is most welcome.

The other thing I also believe is that both you and Coscar are attempting to deviate and suppress DBSAR’s information whereas Tatasal is trying to contradict this information.

It’s what I would call a group of Snakes trying to sell Snake oil.
______________________________________________________________

Snake Oil is sold by continuously telling untruths, continuous touting of a fake product until people buy this product.

There was an infamous case of Polycarbonate vehicle headlamps (pre 2009) becoming glazed by sunlight and a group of scammers spammed the WWW selling a solution which turned out to be regular low grade engine oil, 25ml sold for $30.
Many people purchased because it significantly cheaper than a new replacement, until someone who worked in the lubricant industry tested this oil/solution.
Quod erat demonstrandum.

Sometimes it’s most disconcerting to realize untruths are taken for real just because it’s often repeated.


Wow. Paranoid much?

Plainly speaking, I’m not following your logic here. The more you try to explain it, the less sense it makes.

In the best interest of everyone here, I’m just going to skip your posts from now on.

I hope you found my earlier suggestions about using a USB cord for a nightlight helpful.

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joechina wrote:
Some lamps use the enclosed tube for heating in cold weather
Fenix CL25R


I think that is more of a clever marketing phrase and not a real “feature”. Unless what they meant to say was that in very cold climates the battery tube getting warm will heat up the battery so it performs at its best. (It’s known that lithium-ion battery’s perform very poorly at cold temperatures)

It is using the same basic design as the T1. I assume the CL25R would have the same battery heating (or over heating) issue as the T1 were it not for their thermal protection circuit that reduces output if it gets too hot.

From the Fenix website:

Quote:
Built-in protective circuit protects users from overcharging, over discharging, overheating and improper battery installation

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